Author Topic: Exposure decision advice  (Read 3744 times)

Offline kingscreen

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2014, 02:22:31 PM »
Get a Starlight. We love ours!
Scott Garnett
King Screen


Offline ABuffington

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 01:03:46 PM »
We are still in the evaluation process of LED exposure units.  Our first tests were very promising and no doubt about it LED's are the future of curing.  One point to note is that most LED systems are wavelength specific.  They output at the same nanometer wavelength whereas a Metal Halide will have multiple spikes in the important wavelengths to cure all emulsions.  Diazo emulsions tend to like 360nm whereas Pure Photopolymers like HVP fall in the 390-420nm range.  For this reason Pure Photopolymers and Dual Cures expose well on the LED systems.

There are some new players that popped up at SGIA.  Light Speed which is repped by North West Graphics in MN has a patented multi-spectral light source with good focused lenses.  The concept sounds great to an emulsion manufacturer since we know multi-spectral metal halides simply create stronger stencils.  However in the US we don't see the 80k-90k print runs in water base and discharge that exist in large production shops off shore.  For us the light has to be able to create a very strong screen for these longer runs.  In the US however LEd's will work very well since we are lucky to see 10k runs here.  The Starlight is incredible and exposure time is so short we worry a little about the lattitude of exposure, but initial tests show very strong positives.  For us only very long runs will be needed to compare to MH lamps.  The other new exposure unit is from Douthitt and designed by Olec.  Their LED lights are quite strong by comparison to other units and need to be water cooled and we will test these as well, but for plastisol the LED systems are very good and the lamp life and 110V is a huge cost savings.

Not to be overlooked, Sign Tronics and others have scanning laser exposure with incredible details, CST as well, and we will be testing these on long run wb, discharge for evaluation.
Alan Buffington
Murakami Screen USA  - Technical Support and Sales
www.murakamiscreen.com

Offline 244

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2014, 01:33:11 PM »
We are still in the evaluation process of LED exposure units.  Our first tests were very promising and no doubt about it LED's are the future of curing.  One point to note is that most LED systems are wavelength specific.  They output at the same nanometer wavelength whereas a Metal Halide will have multiple spikes in the important wavelengths to cure all emulsions.  Diazo emulsions tend to like 360nm whereas Pure Photopolymers like HVP fall in the 390-420nm range.  For this reason Pure Photopolymers and Dual Cures expose well on the LED systems.

There are some new players that popped up at SGIA.  Light Speed which is repped by North West Graphics in MN has a patented multi-spectral light source with good focused lenses.  The concept sounds great to an emulsion manufacturer since we know multi-spectral metal halides simply create stronger stencils.  However in the US we don't see the 80k-90k print runs in water base and discharge that exist in large production shops off shore.  For us the light has to be able to create a very strong screen for these longer runs.  In the US however LEd's will work very well since we are lucky to see 10k runs here.  The Starlight is incredible and exposure time is so short we worry a little about the lattitude of exposure, but initial tests show very strong positives.  For us only very long runs will be needed to compare to MH lamps.  The other new exposure unit is from Douthitt and designed by Olec.  Their LED lights are quite strong by comparison to other units and need to be water cooled and we will test these as well, but for plastisol the LED systems are very good and the lamp life and 110V is a huge cost savings.

Not to be overlooked, Sign Tronics and others have scanning laser exposure with incredible details, CST as well, and we will be testing these on long run wb, discharge for evaluation.
Light Speed is not new and has been around for years. Just a FYI. Also we have customers who do very long water based runs and the results of the screens life are very similar to mercury vapor curing.
Rich Hoffman

Offline ZooCity

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2014, 02:36:14 PM »
I was in the exact same spot as TCT. 

We have two complete Olec 5k systems, total redundancy save for our integrator and photocell.  Just purchased a new photocell to boot and we have a 3 different reflector options.  It seemed silly to move to anything else but what pushed me over was space and electrical. 

The Starlight we ordered takes up nothing compared to the giant Millington frame and lamphead on a cart setup.  Most importantly I dropped 29a of draw from our electrical situation.  The 5k Olec draws almost exactly 30a when running and we shoot a lot of diazo added, high EOM screens which means it's running a lot. 

Would I have done it if space/power were not an issue?  Hard telling.  I guess I'll let you know when the Starlight gets into production. 

I like buying anything we can from M&R. Only knock I have on the Starlight is it needs just 6 more inches of expo area to do (2) 23x31 screens at a time.  Given the expo time reduction we'll see from shooting 2up with the halide 63" away from the glass I reckon it will be a non issue but it seems like a no brainer to add that additional space.  Must be something to do with the parts that prevents it.

We did run over 10k pc runs of discharge, wet on wet (which was the lone cause of breakdown for us), earlier in the year and we needed 2 sets of screens if I recall correctly, all hardened with "permanent" 2 part hardener, so if that job swings back around next Spring I can put the LEDs to that ultimate test. 

Offline 244

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2014, 03:16:50 PM »
I was in the exact same spot as TCT. 

We have two complete Olec 5k systems, total redundancy save for our integrator and photocell.  Just purchased a new photocell to boot and we have a 3 different reflector options.  It seemed silly to move to anything else but what pushed me over was space and electrical. 

The Starlight we ordered takes up nothing compared to the giant Millington frame and lamphead on a cart setup.  Most importantly I dropped 29a of draw from our electrical situation.  The 5k Olec draws almost exactly 30a when running and we shoot a lot of diazo added, high EOM screens which means it's running a lot. 

Would I have done it if space/power were not an issue?  Hard telling.  I guess I'll let you know when the Starlight gets into production. 

I like buying anything we can from M&R. Only knock I have on the Starlight is it needs just 6 more inches of expo area to do (2) 23x31 screens at a time.  Given the expo time reduction we'll see from shooting 2up with the halide 63" away from the glass I reckon it will be a non issue but it seems like a no brainer to add that additional space.  Must be something to do with the parts that prevents it.

We did run over 10k pc runs of discharge, wet on wet (which was the lone cause of breakdown for us), earlier in the year and we needed 2 sets of screens if I recall correctly, all hardened with "permanent" 2 part hardener, so if that job swings back around next Spring I can put the LEDs to that ultimate test.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised how fast burning one screen at a time will be. Your screens should work just as good or better on the long water base runs.
Rich Hoffman

Offline mimosatexas

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2014, 04:52:08 PM »
You selling either 5k light zoo? :D  my 1k is starting to wear on me as my screen volume increases...

definitely don't have the funds for led right now unfortunately, not until I at least get an auto.

Offline ZooCity

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM »
You selling either 5k light zoo? :D  my 1k is starting to wear on me as my screen volume increases...

definitely don't have the funds for led right now unfortunately, not until I at least get an auto.

Both actually and the vac frame as well though I doubt that's worth shipping.  Would like to keep the Olecs on hand for a few weeks while we ensure that LED is going to work for us but email me and we can set something up.   

Offline mimosatexas

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2014, 10:39:13 PM »
I already got a killer deal on a huge vacuum frame locally.  Been using it for flag frames, but with my 1k light and proper exposure distance it is taking like 12 minutes to expose...which sucks.  PM me how much you're asking for the 5k lights whenever you're thinking of selling.

Offline tonyt79

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2014, 11:50:59 PM »
I am new to this place and only been printing for a few years full time. I built  an exposure unit and I get times of 30 seconds on 230 mesh screens.  I have not noticed any undercutting. That's with unfiltered black fluorescent lights. I wanted to build a led table but was scared of the results

Offline mimosatexas

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 08:47:19 AM »
A lot of factors determine exposure time and quality.  I used the unfiltered black light bulbs for a few years, and they are indeed faster than a 1k MH at the proper distance away from the glass, but speed means little when it comes to quality.  I experienced massive detail loss when doing 55 LPI halftones using the black lights, to the point that I finally transitioned to the MH.  I also print lots of 200+ runs of discharge, and I was seeing both detail loss and screen breakdown with the black lights, but have not had those issues with the MH.  If you are just doing plastisol and just doing spot colors, the black lights are fine.

The 12 minute time I mentioned above is on a MASSIVE frame coated in a diazo emulsion and being exposed from 5+ feet away for proper/even exposure.  Lots of variables that determine the time :D

Offline TCT

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2014, 09:13:52 AM »
We are still in the evaluation process of LED exposure units.  Our first tests were very promising and no doubt about it LED's are the future of curing.  One point to note is that most LED systems are wavelength specific.  They output at the same nanometer wavelength whereas a Metal Halide will have multiple spikes in the important wavelengths to cure all emulsions.  Diazo emulsions tend to like 360nm whereas Pure Photopolymers like HVP fall in the 390-420nm range.  For this reason Pure Photopolymers and Dual Cures expose well on the LED systems.

There are some new players that popped up at SGIA.  Light Speed which is repped by North West Graphics in MN has a patented multi-spectral light source with good focused lenses.  The concept sounds great to an emulsion manufacturer since we know multi-spectral metal halides simply create stronger stencils.  However in the US we don't see the 80k-90k print runs in water base and discharge that exist in large production shops off shore.  For us the light has to be able to create a very strong screen for these longer runs.  In the US however LEd's will work very well since we are lucky to see 10k runs here.  The Starlight is incredible and exposure time is so short we worry a little about the lattitude of exposure, but initial tests show very strong positives.  For us only very long runs will be needed to compare to MH lamps.  The other new exposure unit is from Douthitt and designed by Olec.  Their LED lights are quite strong by comparison to other units and need to be water cooled and we will test these as well, but for plastisol the LED systems are very good and the lamp life and 110V is a huge cost savings.

Not to be overlooked, Sign Tronics and others have scanning laser exposure with incredible details, CST as well, and we will be testing these on long run wb, discharge for evaluation.

Thanks for the input! I actually know the guy behind the Light Speed, good guy he is my go to tech when I have problems with my old equipment. He has been working on and selling the Light Speed for maybe 7 years now.

I use Murakami emulsion and don't really plan on switching so it is great to get info from you about the multi-spectral LED's. I know he was just up at Chromaline with the new unit and they had rave reviews for him.

If we stay using the SP-1400 do you think the multi-spectrum LED would be a great benefit?
Alex

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Offline jvanick

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2014, 12:18:12 PM »
We are exposing Sp1400 with a 156 mesh with a Starlight. .. 40 seconds with the glass, 22 seconds with the glass removed.

These screens have seen 2000 pc discharge runs with no post hardening or breakdowns, and even after rinsing them with a pressure washer at the end of the run, they're good to go for another run.

Offline ABuffington

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2014, 02:31:55 PM »
As noted in previous posts, you can get a strong screen with the new LED units out there.  Our preference for multi spectral light stems from the need our offshore clients have when printing 80-120K runs.  For runs under 10k the LED's are producing great screens when exposed well.  We have shops testing on longer runs currently and will post the results.  Emulsion is only part of the solution to avoiding breakdown on press with wb, discharge and HSA inks.  Press set up, operator knowledge of how these inks print better, and how a wb and plastisol press set up differs from plastisol is also crucial to long runs with wb inks.

My biggest tech challenge is getting customers to realize just obtaining an  image may not be a good screen exposure. Durability of the stencil is directly related to how much light energy you are able to give the emulsion before it is over exposed.  An image obtained by under exposure will never match the durability of a good exposure using as much time as possible. 
Alan Buffington
Murakami Screen USA  - Technical Support and Sales
www.murakamiscreen.com

Offline blue moon

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2014, 11:33:45 PM »
As noted in previous posts, you can get a strong screen with the new LED units out there.  Our preference for multi spectral light stems from the need our offshore clients have when printing 80-120K runs.  For runs under 10k the LED's are producing great screens when exposed well.  We have shops testing on longer runs currently and will post the results.  Emulsion is only part of the solution to avoiding breakdown on press with wb, discharge and HSA inks.  Press set up, operator knowledge of how these inks print better, and how a wb and plastisol press set up differs from plastisol is also crucial to long runs with wb inks.

My biggest tech challenge is getting customers to realize just obtaining an  image may not be a good screen exposure. Durability of the stencil is directly related to how much light energy you are able to give the emulsion before it is over exposed.  An image obtained by under exposure will never match the durability of a good exposure using as much time as possible.

Al,

can you please define the overexposure of the emulsion as you  use the term?

thanx,

pierre
Yes, we've won our share of awards, and yes, I've tested stuff and read the scientific papers, but ultimately take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt! So if you are looking for trouble, just do as I say or even better, do something I said years ago!

Offline Prosperi-Tees

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Re: Exposure decision advice
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2014, 11:54:15 PM »
I was looking to pull the trigger on one of these by the end of the year but not sure if we will make it. I heard today that Workhorse will be introducing an LED unit at ISS Long Beach in Janruary.