Which used manual press for accuracy & setup speed – Legend, Mach, M&R... ?

[Prince Art]

I'm anticipating a need for a manual in the near future. Most likely a 6/4 or 6/6. Trying to determine what to look for on the used market. Main criteria:

1. Holds accurate registration. (Even on 18" long prints way out on end of the screen.)

2. Sets up FAST.

3. Loads & prints easily.

4. Works well with 23x31 screens. That's all we use.

5. Hoping to keep it under $3000.


What everyone wants, right? But here are a few presses I'm considering, with concerns. I'd appreciate input on any of these based on your experience.


LEGEND – has reputation of the best registration available: simple to dial in, holds like no other. Concerns:
   1) Tooled adjustments for OC, and worse, for pallets. Seems slow.
   2) Raised pallets – experience says straight arms are faster, & easier for small/narrow shirts; also, afraid of deflection on 16x22 wood pallets.
   3) No way to adjust pallets for level (if that's needed)

MACH – has tool-less everything. OC ought to be a breeze. Stock pallets are quick to change.
Concerns:
   1) Micros aren't spring loaded, and aren't true linear left/right. (Correct?) How easy for quick, accurate setups?
   2) Nylon bolt reg gates. How big of a deal is this for holding tight reg?
   3) Are stock pallets & brackets good for maintaining uniform level on all heads?

KRUZER – has stock M&R pallets – fast & can be leveled. Has bearing reg gates. Side clamps.
Concerns:
   1) No screen angle. Dubious that this is really never needed.
   2) A bit cramped? I've seen comments of having to turn the screen to load/unload shirts.


Considering Sidewinder & Chameleon as well; but know less about these in specific, and they are less likely to be in budget.

Would also look at Hopkins International / BWM if the right features are there – but questions will be similar to Mach.

Vastex HD2000 has a stellar reputation, but they don't have stock pallet sizes that suit my preferences.


Finally: What would YOU recommend as the best press to answer these needs?


Bonus question: Any benefit to a 6/6, and/or all heads down for with a single operator?


Open to other suggestions; all pertinent observations greatly appreciated!

[mooseman]

Don't discount Vastex 2000, it is built like a brick shirt house holds registeration  to a fine detail. With the  23 x 31 screens you will need side clamps which can be added.
Super heavy press .
mooseman

[merchmonster]

chameleon is heavy not good for a production press

sidewinder is a good choice if you can find one, they don't come up that often. we have a kruzer and it's ok? we don't use it much except clamp jobs and transfers.

i would suggest m&r for ease of compatibility. pallets, tri loc, etc. we had rototex and workhorse manuals, phased them out when we got an auto and wanted to use same pallets for all presses which will save time and $

[Biverson]

I've got a V2000HD 6/6 I picked up used and love it. They really are tanks and holds registration much better than my previous Riley Hopkins. It is heavier so you'll get more of a workout. Also, I'm not in love with the pallets themselves and they're not as forgiving on smaller shirts and you'd need to swap pallets for those sizes. Another plus is the hydraulic lifts so your squeegees and inks don't go everywhere.

I can use all heads down on mine and only used it once when I had a buddy hit black then I hit white. I wouldn't say this feature would be a game changer.


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[Shanarchy]

I'm assuming you have an auto, so I would probably rank pallet compatibility high on the list. Also, if you are using a pre-reg system, will it carry over to the manual.

My first choice is the Legend, that's what we have here. I bought new and got it with M&R style pallets/adapters. Best manual I've ever had. Super light. I use Shur-Loc 23x31 frames which are heavy, so I put an extra spring on. I have 3 on out of the 4 possible. Micros are super smooth. Holds amazing registration. Check out how the dual registration gates work on youtube. With the M&R style pallets you no longer have to worry about a tool to adjust pallets. Plus wooden pallets suck. You do need to use the tool to lock and unlock the micros. Really not a big deal, but should also really be updated to quick release. If I ever misplace the tool I will be pissed. I also am not a fan of the raised pallet system, but it's not that bad. I had a Vastex before and it was the same idea.

But like I said, if you're an auto shop, I'd rank pallet and pre-reg system compatibility at the top of my list.

Vastex V2000 is a great press. I put it a notch below the Legend, but you will not have pallet compatibility so personally I wouldn't consider it.

 I've never had a sidewinder but have heard a lot of good things about it. I'd consider that, but not a chameleon. Unless you're not going to be using it often. It's very heavy.

Kruzer is a tempting option being that it has a low cost of new, and is basically a watered down sidewinder. I've heard good and bad on them.

Workhorse & Hopkins I wouldn't consider. I'd just go with an M&R over it. I put them in the same general class with the M&R's being much better.

If you're in the USA, I wager you will never use all heads down.

I don't know your exact situation, what auto(s) you have. Accessory pallet collection. If you have a pre-reg unit. How often you plan on using this, and if you have a specific intended purpose for it, or just to tun small jobs/overflow.

I would say Legend > Sidewinder > Anatol > V2000 > the rest.

[Nation03]

I have a used 8/4 Legend. I've printed on these most of my career so far.

I don't like the raised pallets, but you get used to them after a while. I have the quick release pallet adapters, which are nice - unless you are doing long sleeves. Be careful buying this press used (or any press), some people really abuse these things. Mine still gets the job done, but some of the micros tend to skew when tightened. Also, one of the pallet arms is definitely tweaked a bit because the OC is always off on that one arm (Something I could fix if the pallets could be leveled). Speaking of OC, yeah I don't like using a wrench to adjust it every time. I don't use the tool for micros since it didn't come with this press. But you don't really need it - hand tight is plenty.

Overall it's a good manual, but I may look to sell mine soon for something smaller. I'm liking what Ryonet did on the newest Riley Hopkins 300 press. I also really like the v-2000 now that everything is tool free on them. The pallet height bothers me a bit, but if I got used to it on the Legend I'm sure it's not that bad.

[alan802]

An auto.

Seriously though, we've owned a Chameleon, Vastex V2000HD and a Sidewinder and I will never setup a multicolored job on any manual if I have another choice.

[Sbrem]

Long time Rototex (Advance, AWT) users, also rock solid, made with side clamps, we use 23 x 31 all the time on it.

Steve

[mimosatexas]

I looked into all the options when upgrading for a silver press and the kruzer was the best value at the time for me. I also wanted to only spend around 3k, so sidewinder was out, though if money isn't a concern that is absolutely the press I would have gotten, with airlocks. The raised pallet design doesn't make any sense to me, but I print a lot of odd stuff and have the low profile arm means fewer pallet chances and th ability to print larger on smaller stuff, no brainer for me.  I have no complaints really. As mentioned, the angle of the screens when up and the length of the arms means you will be more comfortable loading and unloading with the screens a half turn out of the way. This doesn't really slow anything down or make anything harder though and ever bothers me.

[alan802]

To answer the bonus question:  If you don't ever plan on running the press with more than one person then IN MY OPINION, a 6 station press isn't going to add anything other than cost to your production capabilities versus a 4 station.  Our Chameleon was a 10 color 6 station, the Vastex was a 4/4 and Sidewinder a 6/4.  Any benefits of a 6 station (additional cool down time...and what else for a single operator???) versus a 4 never came up in the 12 years we've been doing this.  Granted we do about 5% of our jobs on the manual press but it makes up for much less than 1% of the total volume that we do.

Even though we've never owned one (probably the reason why I like them so much), I've always felt the Antec was the best option for manually printing.  I've played around on one at a few shows and owners always give glowing reviews, but many times I've heard nothing but good things about a product then when I have a turn examining it I find something completely different.  The Antec could be the same way, but I don't plan on buying one and the only way we will ever use one is if someone gives it to us.  We use our Sidewinder for 1 color or multicolor if the colors don't touch and now that we have 2 autos it's getting used less than before.
   

[Prince Art]

Thanks for the replies.

I think the Sidewinder will be on my radar a little more now, even if getting one in my desired price range is a long shot.

Nice to hear both some pros and cons about the Legend, especially caveats related to used machines.

I'm a little sorry not to see the Mach get a solid recommendation from anyone yet. The dials for OC & screen angle look like helpful features, and it's not expensive to add M&R style brackets to it.

I've barely looked into Rototex, maybe I'll give it some more attention.

FYI: I'm a low-volume, one man shop by design. It's my full time gig, and I wear all the hats. So, in a way, efficiency matters just as much to me as to a large shop, even if the scale & economics are different. As for auto, I'm currently using the only auto I could put in this space (Brown ElectraPrint); and that hasn't worked out as well as I'd hoped for a variety of reasons. So as I consider going back to manual printing, I'm looking at how to streamline the process as much as possible. In particular, I want to aim for fast, easy setups & changeovers. Good pre-reg is a planned component of the overall system. But I'm also trying to consider the myriad other press attributes that affect how quickly you can be up & going.

Anyone with more input, fire away- I'm taking notes!

[Nation03]

Thanks for the replies.

I think the Sidewinder will be on my radar a little more now, even if getting one in my desired price range is a long shot.

Nice to hear both some pros and cons about the Legend, especially caveats related to used machines.

I'm a little sorry not to see the Mach get a solid recommendation from anyone yet. The dials for OC & screen angle look like helpful features, and it's not expensive to add M&R style brackets to it.

I've barely looked into Rototex, maybe I'll give it some more attention.

FYI: I'm a low-volume, one man shop by design. It's my full time gig, and I wear all the hats. So, in a way, efficiency matters just as much to me as to a large shop, even if the scale & economics are different. As for auto, I'm currently using the only auto I could put in this space (Brown ElectraPrint); and that hasn't worked out as well as I'd hoped for a variety of reasons. So as I consider going back to manual printing, I'm looking at how to streamline the process as much as possible. In particular, I want to aim for fast, easy setups & changeovers. Good pre-reg is a planned component of the overall system. But I'm also trying to consider the myriad other press attributes that affect how quickly you can be up & going.

Anyone with more input, fire away- I'm taking notes!

One man shop here as well. My auto is an older Freedom - not the easiest or fastest to run multicolor prints on, so I still do a good amount of manual printing.

I had the Mach on my list for a while as well because of the head adjustments. I would say the Riley Hopkins 300 is similar to the Mach in the sense of the print head adjustments, but it has the bearing reg gate now so that is a plus over the Mach series. Pricing is similar as well. From what I heard the Mach is getting a redesign this year so we might see the addition of a bearing style gate. 

Good pre-reg is a definite but decent micros go a long way for speedy setup. One of the main reasons I keep the v-2000 on my list.