Author Topic: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?  (Read 881 times)

Offline dirkdiggler

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1667
I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« on: February 13, 2018, 09:24:01 AM »
Who is using it?  What have you had to change if anything?  Jury is still out at my shop?
If he gets up, we'll all get up, IT'LL BE ANARCHY!-John Bender


Online ericheartsu

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3093
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 10:03:21 AM »
We use it! We switched from Type K ink, because we were having all sorts of issues.

So far it's a little thinner, but seems to be working out good.
Night Owls Print Shop
Custom Textile and Flastock Screen Printing www.nightowlsprint.com 281.741.7285

Offline dirkdiggler

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1667
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 10:26:55 AM »
We use it! We switched from Type K ink, because we were having all sorts of issues.

So far it's a little thinner, but seems to be working out good.

Which emulsion?  Did you change your coating techniques?
If he gets up, we'll all get up, IT'LL BE ANARCHY!-John Bender

Offline screenprintguy

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1659
  • Constantly thanking the Lord!
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 11:52:03 AM »
We switched our ST over to the new T6 last week. You HAVE to flush the whole machine, clean out the tank, make sure and replace ALL filters, flush the crap out of the head, make sure it's a clean start. It's working way better for us than the D2a had. Still get a little banding in big open areas on the Murakami T9 emulsion, but they don't hold unless you really over expose the heck out of the screen. Washes out easier, doesn't leave the black haze or stain in the emulsion like the Dye based stuff did, if you use a soak tank like we do, it seems to stay on the screen rather than wash off in the soak tank which is nice. Looks to be A LOT darker and deeper than the d2a. So far I like it.
Evolutionary Screen Printing & Embroidery
3521 Waterfield Parkway Lakeland, Fl. 33803 www.evolutionaryscreenprinting.com

Online ericheartsu

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3093
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 04:23:18 PM »
We use it! We switched from Type K ink, because we were having all sorts of issues.

So far it's a little thinner, but seems to be working out good.

Which emulsion?  Did you change your coating techniques?

PHU2. Didn't change any coating techniques.
Night Owls Print Shop
Custom Textile and Flastock Screen Printing www.nightowlsprint.com 281.741.7285

Offline Dottonedan

Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 06:33:59 PM »
Who is using it?  What have you had to change if anything?  Jury is still out at my shop?


Jason,


We are on T6 now. We change over, just to see if we can decrease the need to clean several times a week. The D2A seemed to collect Comfort color lint needing a weekly clean.


I've heard from Colin Huggins that he had trouble with T6 I think. Or maybe it was the D2A.  He needed to replace heads. I believe the problem with the D2A was that (for some shops it became a problem), it left a heavier/tackier residue that would collect more dust from the air than other inks, In my case, it would build up more on the bottom of the head plate and eventually clog faster, and even eventually damage heads for some people. So to circumvent this, they came out with a T6 option. It's thinner, more like the old K ink.


The K ink, was a good ink and some still use it, not wanting to change.  The T6 is similar, but we are hearing from people that depending on your specific environment and specific emulsion, you (could have) some issues. These issues base don what I've read from people like Collin, provide different issues. Some see it cracking, others see it running.


Here's my recent experience.
For us, a couple wks ago, our ink had started to RUN or bleed into the valley's of lower mesh and some on high mesh as well. More noticeable on low mesh due to less emulsion/Lower RZ.
It seems (at least in our case, with our emulsion) so far with todays results only, the more tack we have, or  "more moisture on our screens surface" improves our issue greatly.

To adjust for this running, I tried a method of printing "slower" coming out oifthe machine by changing to a 24 pass mode. This covered slower with more covers. This gave each print pass, a little more time to dry before the next pass. (This worked) and is how we got by when we ran into issues. The issues were not every screen, or every day.  This was a red flag for me. Its it were constant, I could blame the machine and the way it printed. We want to run at 12 pass for speed and coverage at the same time. We are back at 12 pass now, with no issues (as of today).


When we first got the T6, we were at end of summer headed into Fall. In Alabama, thats still somewhat humid. Here now in Winter, with the heat going, and humidifiers keeping our screen room at a constant 40% RH, is seems it kept them (too dry).  Thats what seems to make sense now anyways. It might be our specific emulsion (Chroma-line Blue).


So it would seem that the T6  in our case, (in order to get it to work “at optimum”) it would need something to bite into or bond with, (in order to hold it’s shape). A little more 'Tac" for the lack of a better definition.  Think of it like Spray tack/press glue for press pallets to hold the shirts down in place. Our emulsion surface is pretty smooth. Glossy. Still, there can be rallies on low mesh (156m). We had no issues with it until the temperature had gotten colder, and the heat came on.


We tested this by printing a screen that had been left in the screen coating room, then shifted to be stacked next to the I-Image for most of half the day in that room. Once printed, that screen would run. (See pics).


We then took that same screen into the washout room (next to the I-Image room) with a closed door between the two. Left that printed screen (one one side) in the washout area.
Came back and printed that same screen 4-6 hrs later...and it printed the same design on the other side, and it printed perfect.


We will continue the testing, but so far, we feel with our emulsion and environment, we need just a tad more humidity. We were at 40%, but had bumped it up to 50% and will test that out for a few days.
Collin, (when he had issues), he indicated that his prints were cracking and had even showed some pics of the cracked ink either at his place or at someone else shop. Not sure how they got theirs perfected or if they ever did. Maybe he will see this and update us?

Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail [email protected] 615-821-7850

Offline dirkdiggler

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1667
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 07:13:27 PM »
Thanks Dan,

We switched back to K ink about 3 months ago, T6 would never work on our emulsion, (its the same one you are using).   For a while now even the K is really runny on the screen and fattening out our designs making nightmares.  We switched 2 weeks ago to Murakami T9.  much better results, but that emulsion is sticky on press in our shop.  Not a deal breaker just yet.   We finally got our Unikote installed today, SO.....gonna see what kind of difference that makes.  Switching to a 2/1 rather than our old 1/1 did help when doing it manually.  Will see whats next????  Gonna try T6 again next time tech is out our way.
If he gets up, we'll all get up, IT'LL BE ANARCHY!-John Bender

Offline Colin

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1501
  • Ryonet Account manager
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 09:22:55 PM »
Hi Dan!

I listened to what you said about humidity, took it to heart, and tested it while I was visiting a shop in Louisiana right after thanksgiving.  I was there for a week so I had a chance to watch changes as they were happening.  I have seen these results in other shops as well, but I do not remember their specs.

This shop uses the Saati Graphic HU42 dual cure.  T6 ink in their iimage.  12 passes unidirectional hi detail.

When I got there it was freezing outside and the humidity was at 27% inside the screen room.  We worked on getting relative humidity back up to 40%.  You had talked about the relative room humidity working better at 40% or higher.

Slight segway - I want to try and qualify the emulsion thickness needed to really see this effect happen.  If you are using lower mesh screens or thin thread with 20%+ eom, you will see these effects faaar faster than you will on 180/225/305 mesh or if you have very thin stencils.  The thicker your emulsion deposit, the faster the fluid absorption/cracked earth effect you will get. 

We still saw some "drying" of the t6 ink on the screen causing that cracked earth look - some have called it a "pebbled" texture (this was from another emulsion sales rep).  It was FAR worse when the screen room environment was dry - the screens tested were from a room at 35% humidity.  When the screen room environment got to 40% ink dry qualities improved.  Over 40% things got better still.

What I noticed was between 40% and maybe 45% the screens reacted better with the t6 ink.  Above that, it may act even better, but now we tip towards a point where a dry screen is going into a very moist environment - and at that point if the screen absorbs just enough moisture - like when a screen, or screens, are left sitting during break for 15/20 minutes - it can end up having issues resolving fine dots and details. 

I never saw any wicking problems with the ink - but I did see "fluid spread".  Like an oil ring from greasy food around a printed image.  But only if the screen had to sit for 3-5 minutes (like backing up a left chest with the back image on the same screen, one image has to sit there until the other is done).  This is directly related to the ink drying out and looking like cracked earth - as far as I can tell.  I could not see another reason for the effect.

As for myself and the shop I was at.  M&R told us to change from D2A to t6.  We had no issues with D2A on our screens (that I remember) but we did see head issues within a year of using the D2A (as apparently many customers did for various reasons).  After I started running a few screens with the new head and ink - I noticed what was going on and complained.  M&R then fought us tooth and nail saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with the new ink and everything is my fault with the ink drying and that I should change my emulsion.  I fought back and heard after a month that M&R was starting work on formulating a new ink.....

I have heard from BIG shops that any emulsion that is a dual cure/added diazo has some level of issues with the t6 ink.

I was using Murakami's T9 with diazo from day one with my iimage.  I never changed it.

Maybe diazo is a major culprit?

Hope this is of a help to any one who reads it!
Been in the industry since 1996.  5+ years with QCM Inks.  Been a part of shops of all sizes and abilities both as a printer and as an Artist/separator.  I am now an Account Manager at Ryonet.

Online ericheartsu

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3093
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 10:01:32 PM »
Hi Dan!

I listened to what you said about humidity, took it to heart, and tested it while I was visiting a shop in Louisiana right after thanksgiving.  I was there for a week so I had a chance to watch changes as they were happening.  I have seen these results in other shops as well, but I do not remember their specs.

This shop uses the Saati Graphic HU42 dual cure.  T6 ink in their iimage.  12 passes unidirectional hi detail.

When I got there it was freezing outside and the humidity was at 27% inside the screen room.  We worked on getting relative humidity back up to 40%.  You had talked about the relative room humidity working better at 40% or higher.

Slight segway - I want to try and qualify the emulsion thickness needed to really see this effect happen.  If you are using lower mesh screens or thin thread with 20%+ eom, you will see these effects faaar faster than you will on 180/225/305 mesh or if you have very thin stencils.  The thicker your emulsion deposit, the faster the fluid absorption/cracked earth effect you will get. 

We still saw some "drying" of the t6 ink on the screen causing that cracked earth look - some have called it a "pebbled" texture (this was from another emulsion sales rep).  It was FAR worse when the screen room environment was dry - the screens tested were from a room at 35% humidity.  When the screen room environment got to 40% ink dry qualities improved.  Over 40% things got better still.

What I noticed was between 40% and maybe 45% the screens reacted better with the t6 ink.  Above that, it may act even better, but now we tip towards a point where a dry screen is going into a very moist environment - and at that point if the screen absorbs just enough moisture - like when a screen, or screens, are left sitting during break for 15/20 minutes - it can end up having issues resolving fine dots and details. 

I never saw any wicking problems with the ink - but I did see "fluid spread".  Like an oil ring from greasy food around a printed image.  But only if the screen had to sit for 3-5 minutes (like backing up a left chest with the back image on the same screen, one image has to sit there until the other is done).  This is directly related to the ink drying out and looking like cracked earth - as far as I can tell.  I could not see another reason for the effect.

As for myself and the shop I was at.  M&R told us to change from D2A to t6.  We had no issues with D2A on our screens (that I remember) but we did see head issues within a year of using the D2A (as apparently many customers did for various reasons).  After I started running a few screens with the new head and ink - I noticed what was going on and complained.  M&R then fought us tooth and nail saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with the new ink and everything is my fault with the ink drying and that I should change my emulsion.  I fought back and heard after a month that M&R was starting work on formulating a new ink.....

I have heard from BIG shops that any emulsion that is a dual cure/added diazo has some level of issues with the t6 ink.

I was using Murakami's T9 with diazo from day one with my iimage.  I never changed it.

Maybe diazo is a major culprit?

Hope this is of a help to any one who reads it!

We used Diazo in the PHU2, and now in the t9, still no issues!
Night Owls Print Shop
Custom Textile and Flastock Screen Printing www.nightowlsprint.com 281.741.7285

Offline TCT

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2599
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 02:07:12 PM »
So I've been "out of the loop" for a while here....

What is the reason/selling point for this new stuff? We run the D2A(just got 2 new liters in yesterday) and I'm just trying to see if this is something I should research or know about?
Alex

Hopefully I'll never have to grow up and get a real job...

www.twincitytees.com

Online ericheartsu

  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3093
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 03:38:33 PM »
So I've been "out of the loop" for a while here....

What is the reason/selling point for this new stuff? We run the D2A(just got 2 new liters in yesterday) and I'm just trying to see if this is something I should research or know about?

It dries the print head, and causes weird satellite dots. At least it did for us.
Night Owls Print Shop
Custom Textile and Flastock Screen Printing www.nightowlsprint.com 281.741.7285

Offline TCT

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2599
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 05:53:11 PM »
So I've been "out of the loop" for a while here....

What is the reason/selling point for this new stuff? We run the D2A(just got 2 new liters in yesterday) and I'm just trying to see if this is something I should research or know about?

It dries the print head, and causes weird satellite dots. At least it did for us.

The D2A dries the print head?

Now that I say something it will jinx it for us. But... um... we've been not looking to change...

So the drying is the reason people started looking at this T6?
Alex

Hopefully I'll never have to grow up and get a real job...

www.twincitytees.com

Offline Colin

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1501
  • Ryonet Account manager
Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 09:31:16 PM »
The D2A can get gummy when dry and is difficult to clean up - it ends up getting into strange places around the print head.

Its also thicker and can cause head malfunction....

I didnt want to go to t6 - I was open to it - but M&R didnt really give us a choice.  They said it would be part of replacing the print head "under warranty".
Been in the industry since 1996.  5+ years with QCM Inks.  Been a part of shops of all sizes and abilities both as a printer and as an Artist/separator.  I am now an Account Manager at Ryonet.

Offline Dottonedan

Re: I-image ST TYPE 6 INK?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2018, 10:06:00 PM »
They will change it eventually, I'm sure.  They keep trying to prefect it for everyone scenario. Thus all of the various inks.
The D2A does leave you with a little tac or gummy in the slight overspray, thus collecting more lint etc. Thus more clogs, thus more cleaning.

The T6 dries for some people and runs for others. It seems to have a more narrow window to work well in. We had to take our humidity up from 40% to 50%. We are good currently.

 I think the K ink was THE best overall and there are plenty of testimony out there to the contrary. The main issues with the K was that it didn't run well (would get runny) in cold and humid weather). Extreme cold and humidity tho. It has a large window to work well in, but screen printers by and large, cheap people (no heat in the screen room) and have damp old buildings. LOL.  Often, they are all over the place with room environment, thus making it difficult to have one perfect ink and is why they changed it to the D ink. Then D2 then D2A.  there were others before the K.


Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail [email protected] 615-821-7850