Author Topic: Testing underbases  (Read 895 times)

Offline Cole

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Testing underbases
« on: November 07, 2018, 04:52:39 PM »
I had some free time today, so I decided to test some different underbases and see what happened. The three that I tried were

1) 100% D-Base (CCI) printed through 150s mesh
2) 80% D-Base 20% D-White (CCI) printed through 150s mesh
3) Aquaflex V2 (Magna) printed though 150s mesh

I didn't spend any time registering these colors since that wasn't the point of the test. So please don't judge my horrible registration  ;D

All the top colors were done with 180s mesh. In hindsight, I should have done 225s to combat screen pickup.

The 1st photo below is 100% D Base, no flash, W-Base with CMS pigments for the blue, Aquo HSA for the green. I wanted to use two different types of top colors (waterbase and HSA) to see which had better opacity. Obviously HSA has awesome opacity, but I wanted to know if it was NECESSARY in order to get a bright print. I was actually really surprised how well the blue came out. The color accuracy was close, but not close enough. So I thought I'd try printing it again with a flash.

The 2nd photo is when I flashed the base for 3 seconds at 300 degrees and then layed down the top colors. This time the colors were accurate. One big issue I had was pick up on the blue screen from the green. I figured that might happen since the green was HSA, but I thought I'd try it out anyway. I'll need to do some more testing with 225s to see if this fixes the problem, but for now I'm going to live by the rule of "HSA get printed last".
For all you water base printers out there, do you print regular waterbase over underbases? Or is HSA the standard for overprints?

The 3rd test (not pictured) is of 80/20 base with Aquaflex V2 on top. I really like how this one came out. I've messed around with printing HSA white on top of discharge to really get a WHITE white, but I've mostly been doing straight D-White for my white prints on darks. I think I definitely want to incorporate printing HSA on top. When doing this, I can probably stick with 180s mesh for the top white. I don't think 225s would be necessary.

The 3rd photo is 80/20 base on 50/50 blend tees. I figured this wouldn't turn out well and it didn't. I honestly try to steer my customers away from 50/50 because I hate underbasing. I know that's selfish, but until I've got a method for printing water base on 50/50, I'd rather not touch it.

The 4th photo is of Aquaflex V2 as the base with green Aquo HSA on top. This is on a 50/50 blend shirt. I think it came out pretty good, but I'm really scared of adhesion issues. I've heard some bad stories about using HSA as an underbase and having the top colors flake off in the wash. I'm going to wash these test shirts tonight and see if everything holds up. If anyone has some advice about using HSA as an underbase, let me know!

Finally, the 6th test (not pictured) was 100% D-Base on an 80/20 blend crewneck from Independent. This one turned out okay, but I definitely need to do some more testing. I normally do a discharge underbase with plastisol on top, but I'd really like to do 100% water base on fleece.

I am a totally self taught printer, so all of these tests are just me trying to figure things out. Some of them may make no sense to an experienced printer. That being said, if there are any more tests that you guys think I should do, let me know. Or if there is a better method to help me achieve my goal of creating bright 100% waterbase prints, please share. As always, critiques, suggestions, and guidance is always appreciated!


Offline Dottonedan

Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 08:31:12 PM »
Good stuff right there!   I appreciate the breakdown. Great examples.
Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail [email protected] 615-821-7850

Offline Cole

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 11:06:58 AM »
Good stuff right there!   I appreciate the breakdown. Great examples.

Thanks Dan! I try to test during the slow times. I'm at the point where I feel guilty taking days off when I could be educating myself.

Hoping some others will chime in with their experience!

Offline tonypep

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 03:15:13 PM »
Let me know I am here. Cheap but its not free (Steely Dan song) can anyone guess?

Offline offbeatpress

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 11:28:27 AM »
Interestingly enough, I'm trying to figure this out for our shop too. We want to be able to print all WB and not have to switch to plastisol for blends/synthetic. I know we could switch to HSA or Matsui WB, but I'm dreading having to change systems entirely. We use CCI's D-Base CMS and we've done a ton of testing on various garments to know what works with the system and what doesn't. Anyway...

I just got off the phone with Lee from CCI and asked him about using their Pure White as an UB in a similar situation as to the ones you experimented with. Here's a link to the item: https://www.ccidom.com/us/en/products/enviroline/pure-white-bright-white-water-base-ink/
He said I'd have to experiment with it to see what results I get, but I'm curious about using that as an UB on a 150-S, flashing it off and then doing top colors with non-activated D-Base CMS colors (which I've been told is basically the same as the W-Base inks) on 225-S. I'm sure it'd work for 100% cotton, but I'm curious about doing it on blends. Anybody messed around with that combo?
Ben Clarkson
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Offbeat Press
offbeatpress.com
920-230-6827

Offline tonypep

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 02:51:54 PM »
Yes....with varying results however. The song is Babylon Sisters, since no one would bite! Still available via pm Happy New Year!

Offline RICK STEFANICK

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 07:36:03 PM »
Let me know I am here. Cheap but its not free (Steely Dan song) can anyone guess?

Goucho

Offline tonypep

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2018, 08:20:58 PM »
Hah but not quite! My best Christmas present was a new fashioned old timey looking 6 in in one media player. And yes we brought out all the old CDs. And records, which I will now collect. First one is Seals and Crofts. Anyone remember Diamond Girl?

Offline Maff

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2018, 09:23:06 PM »
https://www.ccidom.com/us/en/products/enviroline/pure-white-bright-white-water-base-ink/
He said I'd have to experiment with it to see what results I get, but I'm curious about using that as an UB on a 150-S, flashing it off and then doing top colors with non-activated D-Base CMS colors (which I've been told is basically the same as the W-Base inks) on 225-S. I'm sure it'd work for 100% cotton, but I'm curious about doing it on blends. Anybody messed around with that combo?

We are not using CCI waterbase, but we've been testing out other waterbase white bases and color tops and each time we have to add more opaque base to the top colors. It always seems like the top colors are too thin and not opaque enough. It's just not like plastisol printing at all. Multiple base layer prints is where I'm headed next.

There are other guys here with way more experience printing this situation, hopefully they chime in. We have printed discharge and waterbase direct to the substrate for many years, but we are still new to water base or HSA white with color tops.

Offline mooseman

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2018, 09:48:05 AM »
Hah but not quite! My best Christmas present was a new fashioned old timey looking 6 in in one media player. And yes we brought out all the old CDs. And records, which I will now collect. First one is Seals and Crofts. Anyone remember Diamond Girl?
Yes I do and as I recall she had a hummingbird but it flew off in a summer breeze and landed on some far away castle in the sand.
PS I know Steely Dan but I could not Peg it before you gave us the answer
mooseman
The Shirt House
SELLING TEE SHIRTS TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THEM, SPORTING DESIGNS THEY DON'T LIKE AND PAYING FOR WITH MONEY THEY DON'T HAVE

Offline offbeatpress

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 12:10:44 PM »
Thanks Maff and tonypep for the responses. I was pretty worried about that being the case. They just seem too thin to cover on a wb or discharge base. We'll continue to experiment on our end and if we come across any sure fire ways to do it, I'll absolutely pass it along!
Ben Clarkson
Production Manager
Offbeat Press
offbeatpress.com
920-230-6827

Offline tonypep

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Re: Testing underbases
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 07:17:14 PM »
Sure fire is certainly a goal however, it's mostly about adhesion and that depends on many things. Certainly substrates play into this but yes, ink choices are critical. And of course, application techniques such as flashing/curing are on the short list but it is a long one. Preaching to the Choir here but it's all about documentation.