Author Topic: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)  (Read 72267 times)

Offline Inkworks

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 06:46:04 PM »
That gives you 1 minute and 50 seconds to find each piece of film and get it to the screen room, so for a 4 colour job that means almost 7.5 minutes, and that doesn't take into consideration the time it takes to find, access, open and print rip the seps to the DTS on the computer.

I've often wondered the actual RTO numbers on DTS, I think somebody was going to post theirs a while back but i must have missed it. Maybe I'll do a search....

Wishin' I was Fishin'


Offline inkman996

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 07:01:57 PM »
Does any one take into consideration the amount of money they have invested in films at the time they purchase a CTS? For a shop our size even we have thousands probably invested in stored films. I am sure a shop like Tony's the number would be mind boggling.
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Offline DannyGruninger

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 08:15:33 PM »
I will be doing a review in a couple weeks for everyone that wants info on our new DTS machine from Lawson.......The unit is basically the same as the new M&R i image st using the same printhead and software technology.


My shop currently only runs around 20-50 screens a day so it was a difficult decision to make but after using the DTS I will say it has helped us tremendously. If your a shop that has very good press operators that can register jobs super fast then you probably won't see as noticeable of a difference then a shop without....For instance I had a 10 color job that I timed last week for lining up on the press....... I had all the screens taped and ready to go, clean squeegees and all the ink colors on a staging cart. From the time I loaded the very first screen on the press to the time I had the first shirt test printed in registration I was at 13 minutes...... This was on a press without pneumatic squeegee/floodbar clamps so I could have saved a couple minutes there. This was one of my main reasons to get a direct to screen machine as well as speed up other steps. Here's a couple basic facts -


- By eliminating film our exposer time decreased over 60%...... We are exposing the same mesh/emulsion in less then half the time then we used to.
- Our DTS can print the same image over double the speed then our epson 4800 could print
- We now have no pin holes to worry about
- Press registration is more then double the speed


Basically the first full day we were doing everything on DTS we saved nearly 2 hours in our work day. Between imaging the screens, saving time in the exposer, not having to tape pin holes, faster press setup, etc all added up to nearly 2 hours.... To me that was huge....


We have had some issues but lawson has been trying to work through those.... I know once we get this machine dialed in to it's full potential it will be the BEST investment I've ever made, period. Now that we have gone DTS we will never go back. I'll quit this business if I ever have to print another film again..... That's how strongly I feel about the technology.



Danny hates film Gruninger


Danny Gruninger
Denver Print House / Lakewood Colorado
https://www.instagram.com/denverprinthouse

Offline tonypep

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 06:24:39 AM »
Believe me I'm all about whatever works for you. It's all about making informed decisions. I hate film too Danny!

Offline Socalfmf

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 08:45:50 AM »
Danny...

I have a ton written down, but the naysayers here have curbed what I am willing to share...

but to touch on what you said about set up and time savings is where the DTS really works...

are you still printing regi marks?  we stopped and now we save on average 5 min per job set up....4-6 set ups a day now you are talking real time by the end of the week - end of the month and end of the year...

sam


Offline DannyGruninger

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 10:06:35 AM »
Sam, like you we don't print any registration marks anymore. Just one more part of the screen that would need tape and have the potential to leak ink on a long run. The only time we do print registration marks now is on 4 cp jobs..... Other then that no marks.



The DTS might not be an ideal fit to every shop but from my personal experience the benefits far outweigh the cons. When I was trying to decide if our shop was big enough we figured out that we spent nearly 30 minutes each day keeping our films organized and that alone was almost enough reason for me to switch. I can't imagine how some real large shops keep a handle on that. Again, just my opinion but I truly feel that every shop would benefit.


If anyone wants to send me a test file I can output using our DTS onto a film and compare to the process your currently using.
Danny Gruninger
Denver Print House / Lakewood Colorado
https://www.instagram.com/denverprinthouse

Offline alan802

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 10:25:27 AM »
I don't think there are naysayers around here.  Think about it Sam, we've all heard some of the great things about this technology, but not one of us has ever "Seen" it with our own eyes in a real shop environment.  I've also talked to numerous people who have had bad experiences so forgive me for not going out and buying one just because you say you are going to have an ROI of one year.  We do twice as many screens as you do and I've crunched the numbers every which way possible, even some pencil whipping in favor of the DTS and the ROI just isn't there yet.  Our shop is obviously different than yours, our processes take different times and the DTS is going to affect each shop differently because of that.  Maybe we are incredibly efficient like Tony is with using film, I don't know.  Maybe our shop would benefit by using film for all our repeat jobs and all new jobs go DTS, just thinking out loud here.  Our exposure times would increase 60-70%, our setup times wouldn't benefit all that much since our regi system works pretty much flawlessly.  We spend about 3-4K on film and ink a year, there are other benefits that would help us shave time off our day, but those are the biggest ones and those don't add up like I would want them to.  60-70% faster exposure would be fantastic if our exposures were several minutes long, but we have a 10K watt metal halide exposure unit that our longest exposure is about 90 seconds and those are few and far between.   

You, Dave and Danny and maybe one other member has one, speak highly of them, I've taken that into account.  I trust what you guys have said, but I also know there are also things not being said by a lot of people pushing this technology and that's why I am waiting.  I do believe they are the next great thing for our shop, but I'm not biting until the price is better and they can ship one to our shop, plug it in and it freaking works like it's supposed to.  One shop here in town wasted a whole year on trying to get theirs working correctly, in the words of the great Sugar Brown, "ain't nobody got time for that".

As I said, most of us have never seen one other than at a show, and the amount of posts on their behalf is very small, no videos, just written testimonial from a very small group of owners.  As I mentioned earlier, I've heard more nightmare stories about them than I have good stories so forgive a few of us for asking questions about it's greatness.  We will have one, it's just a matter of when.  I think they are good, but I ain't buying until they are great.  Right now, I think there are only 2 units I would buy and one of them is 65K and the other one would have the best service if something were to go wrong.  I like the Lawson unit, interested in the Acti one, Douthitt/Oyo units (old Kiwo I-jet), wax or waterbased ink, I've done a good bit of research.  But if I don't ask questions or bring up weaknesses in the technology then I'm not doing my job for this shop.  It's easy to get caught up in the greatness of a product and completely forget about it's shortcomings.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it -T.J.
Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it -T.P.

Offline JBLUE

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 10:57:02 AM »
The whole point of the post is 80 screens in 80 minutes. A DTS cant print that fast so it would not work in that environment.

For you guys that have them if they ran all day on typical jobs how many screens can you guys image in a day?

If you need to re-burn a screen for on press and it is in the middle of printing another job can you stop in the middle, reprint the needed screen, and start again where it left off?

I think the technology is great and I have seen it a few times. I like where it could go and for the right shops it is a no brainer.
www.inkwerksspd.com

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid...... Ben Franklin

Offline Socalfmf

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 11:02:22 AM »
I also would bet that the 80 screens in 80 minutes did not include lining up or printing the film....Tony? 

sam

Offline tonypep

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 12:06:27 PM »
Lining up film, exposing and washout. Films no. We have a four person Art department and again use the film as a quality checkpoint. Critical point in our process. Like every one else they just click and send to the printer and go back to designing so not an issue. I also use film to determine mesh count and sequence as well as spell check etc. A mistake is always less expensive the earlier it is detected in the chain of production.
I don't suscribe to the notion that "If it works for me it must work for everyone" school of thought. Again; informed decisions will in the end, hopefully will lead us to greater productivity. There are vastly different business models in our industry and therefore technology must reflect that. Rich can tell you all about failed technology that had extremely sound foundations (think of the Formulas).
I didn't mean to start anything here, just making an observation.

Offline Socalfmf

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 12:15:29 PM »
http://youtu.be/n1zvjphtRYs

the good bad and ugly....again it works for us...not having to find, line up refile ect...




Offline tonypep

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »
I'm sure it does thats what it was designed for. I'm waiting till technology arrives at the "Hit the button and the shirts come out of the printer printed, folded, and boxed with the shipping label attached" unit.
And we can stay home and operate romotely while watching TV!

Offline Screened Gear

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2012, 12:51:08 PM »
Socalfmf,

Thanks for posting the video. I was really wondering how fast it was.

Offline tonypep

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2012, 12:58:31 PM »
Which perfeclty illustrates why this could be an issue with high volome shops. In that time the screen would have been exposed and washed out and we would be already on the next one. Awesome though.

Offline inkman996

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2012, 01:01:44 PM »
That machine prints as fast as our 1430 but the difference is I can preload a stack of film in the printer and walk away. In fact it is what i do at night, I usually have a dozen films to be printed and I just hit go, come in the AM check the films and line up on the carrier sheets.
"No man is an island"