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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Maxie on October 18, 2017, 06:27:28 AM

Title: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Maxie on October 18, 2017, 06:27:28 AM
I saw a short clip Saati put on UTube about SGIA New Orleans, they briefly showed a new lazer exposure unit.
If anyone had a good look at this unit I'd like to hear more about it.
Speed?
Dpi?
Cost?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: GKitson on October 18, 2017, 07:29:18 AM
Screen print equipment LUST, I really WANT ONE!

My Douthittt wax jet is doing a great job but I WANT ONE!

Perfectly round dots, I WANT ONE!

Longer imaging time due to UV conversion of entire emulsion coated area, but I WANT ONE!

Elimination of consumables is a bonus, but I WANT ONE!

Elimination of environmental sensitivity is great, no print head to go bad, but I WANT ONE!

Lifetime of Laser emitters is unknown but a really long time, I WANT ONE!

Should/could be shipping by LB, did I mention I WANT ONE!

He with the most toys wins, I WANT ONE!

My 2 cents....

 
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Homer on October 18, 2017, 07:45:06 AM
what is...THAT?!......game changer for sure, anyone have a price?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT)
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: blue moon on October 18, 2017, 08:03:14 AM
what is...THAT?!......game changer for sure, anyone have a price?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT)

expensive!!! $90K

pierre
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: GKitson on October 18, 2017, 08:09:49 AM
SAATI LTS 6080 spec sheet
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Sbrem on October 18, 2017, 10:13:26 AM
what is...THAT?!......game changer for sure, anyone have a price?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvqvufgW_Lk&list=PLoTB576QF0rCnOLxp4JQT1eOsM0H_-6jT)

expensive!!! $90K

pierre

Ouch!  OK, next on the agenda...

Steve
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: blue moon on October 18, 2017, 10:44:48 AM
as Greg mentioned, it is an impressive piece of equipment.
Not sure if I got this right, but I think the version 2 is the one that will be for sale. They said they made some improvements which is good to hear. Not a big fan of buying the prototypes. . .

pierre
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: SEPSINK on October 18, 2017, 11:03:50 AM
I've been drooling over this thing. Would love to see the dots this thing could hold!
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: blue moon on October 18, 2017, 11:31:49 AM
I've been drooling over this thing. Would love to see the dots this thing could hold!

they said they were testing 120 lpi and getting good results. I also heard something about not going over 90 though.

pierre
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: GKitson on October 18, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
I've been drooling over this thing. Would love to see the dots this thing could hold!

they said they were testing 120 lpi and getting good results. I also heard something about not going over 90 though.

pierre

Next generation will be in a 'prettier' cabinet.  More mass in machine to dampen vibration among other new and improved features, I agree with Pierre regarding prototype buys, kind of the bleeding edge of technology...
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Maxie on October 18, 2017, 03:08:46 PM
I'll wait for a second hand wax unit for someone who is buying one of these at 90K.
Not in my budget.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on October 18, 2017, 10:02:53 PM
I would buy this in a heartbeat if it actually worked like its described to.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: starchild on October 18, 2017, 10:43:02 PM
Big boy Toys.. Could you imagine when (potentially new) customers find out there designs can be imaged on a screen at 120lpi? I can't see them wanting to use another screen printer.. Not to mention the end consumer- just wait till the find out they are rocking 120lpi t-shirts.. Pure madness in the market place- a true disrupter..

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Gilligan on October 18, 2017, 10:52:46 PM
Big boy Toys.. Could you imagine when (potentially new) customers find out there designs can be imaged on a screen at 120lpi? I can't see them wanting to use another screen printer.. Not to mention the end consumer- just wait till the find out they are rocking 120lpi t-shirts.. Pure madness in the market place- a true disrupter..

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

We need better emoji's lol
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on October 18, 2017, 11:32:55 PM
Heard whispers of this thing, thanks for finally showing it to me. 

90k for 2540dpi sounds like a steal to me.   And hey, it exposes too! 

But I must agree with the luckyflyinroush in two key ways: 

1.Relatively speaking I would be impressed if any CTS unit operated at it's advertised dpi and especially lpi.  The bar is set awfully low in this area but even if this laser unit operated at half advertised res it would be about 2x the res of the best masking unit out there.  Like starchild says you'll be blowing minds with the end user who is totally focused on getting the most lpi for the money.   But seriously I need at least slightly higher res here, like 1000dpi would do it even.  You just can't truly dial a tone curve at 600dpi/ppi, not enough pixel data to work with.

2.Up time has been a catastrophe for us with the last two imaging packages that were in this shop. Two machines- one film, one CTS -sold specifically for imaging screens, have been bought back by the mfg from us in the last 2 years for demonstrated lack of ability to image screens.  In the interim they cost us an amount of money I refuse to calculate as the thought of it makes me a little nauseas.  An onus is placed upon the buyer of these finicky devices to assist in repairing them.  Can you imagine buying a brand new F450 for work and being told to get in there yourself or have your paid employees jump in and help fix the tranny when it was 6mo past the sale and ditched on the side of the road between job sites?  How about a shiny new bmw that was a joy to drive except when it broke down mid-drive every month or so?  I wouldn't balk at that if those rigs cost $350.00 but at ≈60k.....

Anyways, I imagine and hope that our experience is not the norm and just bad luck but if this Saati model worked round the clock and at the advertised resolution I wouldn't hesitate.   If it actually lasted 10k+ hours on the lamp the roi would be awfully hard to argue against.  Toss in the lack of any consumable and the potential freedom from print head replacement and that 30k gap between this and the masking units on the market closes up mighty quick.

So who's going to buy one and let us know? 


Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Maxie on October 18, 2017, 11:43:42 PM
Does anybody know what are the limits of our system are?
Let’s say the Saati unit can expose 120 dpi, can the screen, emulsion, ink, squeegee and possibly most important of all T Shirt hold this?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on October 19, 2017, 01:10:44 AM
Does anybody know what are the limits of our system are?
Let’s say the Saati unit can expose 120 dpi, can the screen, emulsion, ink, squeegee and possibly most important of all T Shirt hold this?

I wouldn't go too far down that rabbit hole.   Short answer is no, a jersey weave T with ink printed straight to it is not really going to benefit from advanced lpi- mathematically speaking you'll have many of the dots falling in between the wales.  Common mesh counts used will block a lot of small dots with the enlarged knuckles present with higher micron thread thicknesses.

Now, a CMYK over solid base plate areas absolutely will benefit and especially if you utilize rosettes.   For a good reference point- if magazines were printed at the lpi we run they'd look like junk. 

Definitely there are emulsions available that can resolve higher lpi and inks, blades and mesh that can image them.

To me, the real benefit of increased dpi which, in the case of CTS units, translates directly to ppi or the resolution of your 1bit tiff rip file is that you have more pixels to mess around with for dot linearization.  The smallest piece of data you can image is 1px at whatever res you are outputting at.  I've found that you can't fully dial a tone curve for screen printing unless you start at a min 900ppi.  I don't understand the math behind it all necessarily but I do know that I can tighten up our tone curve at 900 but have to make compromises at 600.  Practically speaking, my only reason for desiring higher dpi. 
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: T Shirt Farmer on October 19, 2017, 10:07:26 AM
This laser unit is not a speed demon I heard 2 min imaging times for 14" by 16" image
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: GKitson on October 19, 2017, 11:12:44 AM
You gotta think backwards, image size is not relative.

The entire emulsion coated area is hardened by the laser and must be 'exposed/converted'.

Therefore if you have a 23x31 screen with 20x28 emulsion coated area, you are exposing/hardening the 20x28, even if the image is only a left chest or label back.

New & improved sometimes takes some getting used to...
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Sbrem on October 19, 2017, 11:51:52 AM
Big boy Toys.. Could you imagine when (potentially new) customers find out there designs can be imaged on a screen at 120lpi? I can't see them wanting to use another screen printer.. Not to mention the end consumer- just wait till the find out they are rocking 120lpi t-shirts.. Pure madness in the market place- a true disrupter..

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

the question is how 120 lpi comes out on a t-shirt anyway. And not very many of my customers even begin to understand line counts and angles, and I'm talking about large marketing companies with international clients. They just rely on us to get it right and tell them how much it costs.

Steve
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: starchild on October 19, 2017, 02:29:47 PM
Big boy Toys.. Could you imagine when (potentially new) customers find out there designs can be imaged on a screen at 120lpi? I can't see them wanting to use another screen printer.. Not to mention the end consumer- just wait till the find out they are rocking 120lpi t-shirts.. Pure madness in the market place- a true disrupter..

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

the question is how 120 lpi comes out on a t-shirt anyway. And not very many of my customers even begin to understand line counts and angles, and I'm talking about large marketing companies with international clients. They just rely on us to get it right and tell them how much it costs.

Steve
That's my point.. We may appreciate 120lpi because it's our discipline but it ends there.. There are other ways to bring competency to a business and create value..  For pennies even..

 I don't know of a consumer that shop for a  t-shirt by lpi or even perfect registration.. There is no education in the makret place to tell a consumer what to look for in a printed tee..

We are buying sometimes (in any given trade) based on emotion because we strive to be the best at what we do (human nature) and a well versed manufacturer can appeal to these emotions (through marketing) even if there is no real value in the marketplace for the tingamajig.. (Where would you be at with a 3 color front 5 color back @ 320pcs brown cotton/polyester taking into account $90k worth of unnecessary operation to get the job done? How much did you save the customer?)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on October 19, 2017, 08:42:13 PM
Nobody, and I mean nobody needs 120lpi to print on a shirt. The most majestical prints I've ever seen (not done by us) have been at 60-70lpi. So if it can hold that, that's all you need. Ever. Period. We are printing on shirts people, not paper.

Just the shear thought of not spending thousands in D2A ink, and 5-7k in print heads every two years makes it an easy buying decision.

Now how quickly does it Image a screen....that's my question. If its right about 1-2 minutes I'd be happy.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Sbrem on October 21, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Nobody, and I mean nobody needs 120lpi to print on a shirt. The most majestical prints I've ever seen (not done by us) have been at 60-70lpi. So if it can hold that, that's all you need. Ever. Period. We are printing on shirts people, not paper.

Just the shear thought of not spending thousands in D2A ink, and 5-7k in print heads every two years makes it an easy buying decision.

Now how quickly does it Image a screen....that's my question. If its right about 1-2 minutes I'd be happy.

To this day, one of the finest shirts I've seen was the Nocona Boots shirt that came with Control Without Confusion by Joe Clarke and Mark Coudray when first published. I would just state at it and stare at it, brilliant execution. Back in the '86 or so too...

Steve
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: mimosatexas on October 22, 2017, 04:38:33 PM
Does anybody know what are the limits of our system are?
Let’s say the Saati unit can expose 120 dpi, can the screen, emulsion, ink, squeegee and possibly most important of all T Shirt hold this?

I wouldn't go too far down that rabbit hole.   Short answer is no, a jersey weave T with ink printed straight to it is not really going to benefit from advanced lpi- mathematically speaking you'll have many of the dots falling in between the wales.  Common mesh counts used will block a lot of small dots with the enlarged knuckles present with higher micron thread thicknesses.

Now, a CMYK over solid base plate areas absolutely will benefit and especially if you utilize rosettes.   For a good reference point- if magazines were printed at the lpi we run they'd look like junk. 

Definitely there are emulsions available that can resolve higher lpi and inks, blades and mesh that can image them.

To me, the real benefit of increased dpi which, in the case of CTS units, translates directly to ppi or the resolution of your 1bit tiff rip file is that you have more pixels to mess around with for dot linearization.  The smallest piece of data you can image is 1px at whatever res you are outputting at.  I've found that you can't fully dial a tone curve for screen printing unless you start at a min 900ppi.  I don't understand the math behind it all necessarily but I do know that I can tighten up our tone curve at 900 but have to make compromises at 600.  Practically speaking, my only reason for desiring higher dpi.

I'm still running a pretty low tech and unoptimized setup compared to a lot of shops and even I can see a massive difference in quality and control when starting art at 720ppi (imported from illy or when I am doing the design) vs the 300ppi files I get from clients.(I havent tried higher, but there is a noticeable difference between 600 and 720).
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ScreenFoo on October 22, 2017, 07:02:53 PM
Does anybody know what are the limits of our system are?
Let’s say the Saati unit can expose 120 dpi, can the screen, emulsion, ink, squeegee and possibly most important of all T Shirt hold this?

I wouldn't go too far down that rabbit hole.   Short answer is no, a jersey weave T with ink printed straight to it is not really going to benefit from advanced lpi- mathematically speaking you'll have many of the dots falling in between the wales.  Common mesh counts used will block a lot of small dots with the enlarged knuckles present with higher micron thread thicknesses.

Now, a CMYK over solid base plate areas absolutely will benefit and especially if you utilize rosettes.   For a good reference point- if magazines were printed at the lpi we run they'd look like junk. 

Definitely there are emulsions available that can resolve higher lpi and inks, blades and mesh that can image them.

To me, the real benefit of increased dpi which, in the case of CTS units, translates directly to ppi or the resolution of your 1bit tiff rip file is that you have more pixels to mess around with for dot linearization.  The smallest piece of data you can image is 1px at whatever res you are outputting at.  I've found that you can't fully dial a tone curve for screen printing unless you start at a min 900ppi.  I don't understand the math behind it all necessarily but I do know that I can tighten up our tone curve at 900 but have to make compromises at 600.  Practically speaking, my only reason for desiring higher dpi.

I'm still running a pretty low tech and unoptimized setup compared to a lot of shops and even I can see a massive difference in quality and control when starting art at 720ppi (imported from illy or when I am doing the design) vs the 300ppi files I get from clients.(I havent tried higher, but there is a noticeable difference between 600 and 720).

To be fair a lot of that could be aliasing from non-native resolutions.  If you start at 300 or 600 and scale to 720 (an Epson's native resolution) every five dots it has to guess one, at certain angles that is very noticeable.  Not to even get into the "300 dpi file" that's actually a 120 dpi file that's been poorly resampled. 
We're also not even getting into some of the things that can happen when someone who doesn't understand color profiles starts modifying files with them.  And that's coming from someone who barely understands color profiles.  :)

Also, as a DPI vs. look thing, I think some of the best monochrome work I've been able to print had no structured dots at all. 
Go figure.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on November 03, 2017, 01:08:35 PM
Super excited to get my hands on this technology. PO cut today for us to bring one into our shop here. As soon as we get it up and going which should be soon I'll let the forum know what we think. Regardless if our mesh/fabric can hold the detail I'm excited to push the envelope with hard dots like great image setter films. I'll bring the topic back up to the top once the machine lands here.


Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: 3Deep on November 03, 2017, 02:31:10 PM
Big boy Toys.. Could you imagine when (potentially new) customers find out there designs can be imaged on a screen at 120lpi? I can't see them wanting to use another screen printer.. Not to mention the end consumer- just wait till the find out they are rocking 120lpi t-shirts.. Pure madness in the market place- a true disrupter..

This just cracked me up, I've said for years the tech in this biz goes a little overboard, but if you got the money go for it.   It's like wearing a Rolex watch to my 10 dollar timex watch we both get the same time you just paid more for your time, to get the same time I get. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on December 11, 2017, 07:24:14 PM
Laser unit is in place, install tomorrow. I'll let you guys know some initial feedback on it once we start firing up the laser.

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on December 11, 2017, 08:04:14 PM
Were the sharks included, or extra?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Ron Pierson on December 11, 2017, 08:16:45 PM
Just installed 3 new print heads - $4500.........
the tech was a few bucks.....
that's twice this year.........
thousands in Toner a year..........THOUSANDS of dollars
constant cleaning, constant adjusting valves, constant everything....
(we have 2 I-Image 3 head machines)
Don't get me wrong - I-Image is the way to go for speed and accuracy
film............like getting my artists to use a rotary phone
Can't look back, we aren't going that way

I could care less about a dot past 55 lpi
most work here is 2 over 3 and all spot work

let me count the ways.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: zanegun08 on December 11, 2017, 08:32:53 PM
Laser unit is in place, install tomorrow. I'll let you guys know some initial feedback on it once we start firing up the laser.

Rad!  No consumables for the win, and ideally it can use your existing 1 bit tiffs for the wax unit so you don't have to redo all your art that you have already done, just a matter of aligning them on the screen correctly.

I'm excited to see this, and inline DTG at ISS this year.

I hope in 2 more years, this technology gets faster, and comes down in prices, although that doesn't really matter with no consumables.  This year we have spent ~$5300 on wax, which averages to about .10 cents per screen although we do a lot of screens double sided.

Very little maintenance needed in the 3 years we've had the unit, but over the span of 5 years if we buy the same amount of wax and fingers crossed we don't have any major maintenance costs or print head replacements needed, then we will be at around $77k for the cost of ownership and consumables.  That 90k isn't out of the ballpark for "0" matienece and 0 consumables if only the speed was a little faster.  Also can't do more than one image on the screen unless you set it up in art first (unless they have a function to gang images in software)

Anyhow, love new tech
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on December 11, 2017, 09:16:04 PM
Just installed 3 new print heads - $4500.........
the tech was a few bucks.....
that's twice this year.........
thousands in Toner a year..........THOUSANDS of dollars
constant cleaning, constant adjusting valves, constant everything....
(we have 2 I-Image 3 head machines)
Don't get me wrong - I-Image is the way to go for speed and accuracy
film............like getting my artists to use a rotary phone
Can't look back, we aren't going that way

I could care less about a dot past 55 lpi
most work here is 2 over 3 and all spot work

let me count the ways.

Ron, is that twice in a year you have had to install new heads on your unit or once each?  What I'm asking is how often and at what cost are you replacing heads?  It seems that some CTS users, both of wax and ink, get lucky and don't need a head for years, others tear through them.  I lost track of the printheads our unit went through in a year.

Zane makes the point that I have in my mind regarding the laser tech v. masking- what's the annual operating for heads/tech/masking consumables?  Roi looks a lot better on the laser machine with only a possible need for tech support v. the masking media plus the basically disposable print heads if your annual costs are up there.  Ours were with CTS or rather they would've been had the machine not been under warranty.  Unless you are a larger or multi shift operation pumping out so many screens per shift that the attrition of masking media, print heads, you and your staff's time spent troubleshooting and tech visits is worth it I think tech like this laser unit is worth holding out for. 

Following along to see how this thing performs.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Ron Pierson on December 12, 2017, 10:02:37 AM
Hey Zoo


Well - that is changing all three heads once this year and two others once - total of 5
we do about 550 - 600 screens a day - two shifts.
screen room only open for 10 or so hours in a day.
washout and re-coat done in 8 hours.

RP
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on December 12, 2017, 12:10:14 PM
Our I-Image has gone through 9 print heads in 2 years. That's right. 15k two years in print heads.
Our last 3 heads lasted less than 6 months.

Machine only gets used 4 hours a day, 4 days a week.

We are waiting to see if they are going to try to warranty the last set somehow as the damn things didn't even last 6 months. It's ludicrous. There has to be a manufacturing defect with the last set of heads.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: zanegun08 on December 12, 2017, 12:11:41 PM
Hey Zoo


Well - that is changing all three heads once this year and two others once - total of 5
we do about 550 - 600 screens a day - two shifts.
screen room only open for 10 or so hours in a day.
washout and re-coat done in 8 hours.

RP

That's an obscene amount of screens.  Is it still fun at that point?

This technology will have to come a long way to support a business like yours, or you'll need an army of exposure units as I can't see this being sped up exponentially unless emulsion chemistry evolves to accommodate.  Since you are exposing the full screen, it will have to always do the full screen, while wax or inkjet masking speed is limited by the speed of the print head which can increase over time, or adding more print heads (I-Image style), larger print heads, and speeding them up.

But for the laser unit to go faster, it either means more light arrays, which would increase cost of the machine, and maybe lose accuracy.

Anyhow, super interesting tech, but at that many screens per day, you may just not be the right demographic and be stuck with replacing expensive prints heads long into the future.

Can't wait to see at ISS.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ebscreen on December 12, 2017, 12:24:22 PM
Laser for the imaged area and a different faster scanning lightsource for the non-imaged area.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Ron Pierson on December 12, 2017, 03:13:05 PM
Hey All

sure - still fun!! The fun is to see if there are any improvements along the way that will fix the bottom line. We have identified MANY of those. We have lots of starlights.
It's quicker to remove a screen from an I-Image and run another while a starlight is burning. It is more cost effective if they run simultaneous.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on December 13, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
Ron I remembered vaguely that you did a lot of screens but dang a rang that's a heavy load per shift. 

I agree that the laser units would need an emulsion with a spectral match in sensitivity. 

Can you imagine just feeding screens into a unit as fast as you can and them coming out exposed?   I feel like that would be amazing in line with a resolving unit.

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: zanegun08 on December 13, 2017, 08:31:38 PM
Can you imagine just feeding screens into a unit as fast as you can and them coming out exposed?   I feel like that would be amazing in line with a resolving unit.

If you are in Europe you can get the STM-TEX, and SET IT, AND FORGET IT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9prR8itm6k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9prR8itm6k)

You can get one in the US too, but I don't know about support, and they are mucho money.

Though as labor continues to rise this tech gets much more attractive.  Combine the SAATI Exposure with the STM-TEX automated workflow.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on December 15, 2017, 01:32:36 PM
I love that video, I watch it a couple times a year.   Too bad that frame profile hasn't caught on in the states.

I think an expo unit like the one being discussed could be paired with a simple, in-line resolving system for a poor man's version of this. 
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: SPexchange on December 15, 2017, 05:36:53 PM
Saw many years ago a smt printer laser imaging their screens.  Maybe 10 years ago.
Cannot remember the make.

How about this unit:
http://www.digitalscreenprinting.com/#about-us (http://www.digitalscreenprinting.com/#about-us)

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: zanegun08 on December 16, 2017, 04:30:15 AM
Too bad that frame profile hasn't caught on in the states.


Off Topic, but there is a company that makes them in the US, I got a sample frame, the issue was the thickness of the frame was to slim for our M&R presses to close down on without modification, making running standard square, and the beveled frames simultaneously difficult if not impossible without major modification.

I can look up the company next week if you are interested send me an email.  The ended up only being a few dollars more per frame if I remember correctly, but as typical, they were far from Oregon so shipping was a killer for us on them and not being "press ready" at no fault to the screen manufacturer though.

Edit to include the link - http://www.offcontact.com/screens-home (http://www.offcontact.com/screens-home)
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on December 16, 2017, 04:47:34 PM
Hey Danny!

Did ya fall in? I'm excited to hear if it works?!
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: screenprintguy on December 18, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Off topic, but I'd really like to see one of these things in action.
My off topic thing is hitting on the guys that have head print head issues on their I-Images. I've been really struggling with using certain emulsions. Chromaline emulsions reacted great, but most murakami emulsions have lines/banding looking deals when imaging which translates to time and pain in the arse beating on the screen to rinse out. I was just told Friday that a new UV ink for the I-Images has been in testing and should be released soon that will not only cure the issues with bad reactions on come emulsions to also not drying in the heads if the heads aren't wet capped. Once we had to change our print head, I was given the advice to cap the head in pink solution every night, if the unit is off for any time beyond a couple days, flush the head with the pink solution, cap it in pink solution as this is how the heads are stored before installed in the machines. We have used all the inks from starting with K, to D, to D2, and now D2A. The new one I think will be called Q, not sure, but I know of a guy a couple hours from me with a new unit that had issues with his print heads, he had an air vent near the unit that blue air into the unit getting by his cap and drying out the head. They replaced the head and he was having the same things I'm having with T9, so that led the tech to see it wasn't isolated. Single head units seem to see more of the issues on emulsion because of just the one head. My currrent work around is 12+ setting, but I want to be in a position to run 6+ and get the max speed. Anyways, my point is that not only will the new ink cure those interaction problems that some of us deal with having lines in our freshly printed images on certain emulsions, it supposedly doesn't dry in the head fast like D2a does. I know if I walk away from my unit for more than 20 minutes, the D2a will totally clog and I have to run a butt ton of cleanings to get it going again, yeah frustrating, but I just try to remember if I'm not tossing a screen right in, Cap that bad boy. Sorry to stray from the laser topic, maybe this one split at one time and I didn't see it. But M&R is working to resolve the issues with the inks that some have had.

Someone needs to put some videos up of the laser thing doing it's deal =)
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on December 18, 2017, 02:54:17 PM
They replaced the head and he was having the same things I'm having with T9, so that led the tech to see it wasn't isolated.
Someone needs to put some videos up of the laser thing doing it's deal =)

I use the T9 emulsion here - with diazo added for anti halation - and I have zero issues with banding unless there is a head issue.  Then we just clean and its good to go.  But its also a single head and we run whatever the best print quality is.

Have you talked with Murakami at all about the emulsion issues?

Still want the lazers...
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: screenprintguy on December 18, 2017, 03:34:17 PM
Yeah been dealing with my dealer with all sorts of testing, like I said, we thought it was isolated, but it's doing the same thing at a shop not to far from me with a single print head "S" model. My guy got a sample of the new stuff, flushed his unit, put the new stuff in, no more banding. I've gone through a crap ton of T9 and it's just a weird anomaly. Oddly, when we first went back to using it, the first gallon didn't have the issue, then from there till now, about a years worth all the same. My guy even spent probably a total of 12 hours testing stuff here, and it's defiantly an interaction between the UV ink and the emulsion surface. Now, I don't use diazo, personally don't see the need for it, but maybe when you add the diazo and the water that's needed for it, you are avoiding what ever this anomaly is. T9 is awesome, small post exposure, we've had jobs over 5,000 impressions double stroking zero break down without the diazo so I've never felt the need for it, that's the whole reason I wanted to go with a T9, or chromatech WR. The WR is awesome too, just faster exposing, and I'm already at 1 and 2 second exposures so, no need to try and go faster lol, that's crazy. I'm just anxious to see when there is stock of the new ink to give it a go. I don't want to go back to the WR mainly because there is no local support for it, and winter time now, I'm not wanting to order shipped emulsion from up north lol. So we will see. It's not like I'm not able to get our work done, it's just a bit of a slow down if there are any lines in a spot color sep that need a little extra pressure from the power washer.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on December 18, 2017, 07:59:11 PM
Off topic, but I'd really like to see one of these things in action.
My off topic thing is hitting on the guys that have head print head issues on their I-Images. I've been really struggling with using certain emulsions. Chromaline emulsions reacted great, but most murakami emulsions have lines/banding looking deals when imaging which translates to time and pain in the arse beating on the screen to rinse out. I was just told Friday that a new UV ink for the I-Images has been in testing and should be released soon that will not only cure the issues with bad reactions on come emulsions to also not drying in the heads if the heads aren't wet capped. Once we had to change our print head, I was given the advice to cap the head in pink solution every night, if the unit is off for any time beyond a couple days, flush the head with the pink solution, cap it in pink solution as this is how the heads are stored before installed in the machines. We have used all the inks from starting with K, to D, to D2, and now D2A. The new one I think will be called Q, not sure, but I know of a guy a couple hours from me with a new unit that had issues with his print heads, he had an air vent near the unit that blue air into the unit getting by his cap and drying out the head. They replaced the head and he was having the same things I'm having with T9, so that led the tech to see it wasn't isolated. Single head units seem to see more of the issues on emulsion because of just the one head. My currrent work around is 12+ setting, but I want to be in a position to run 6+ and get the max speed. Anyways, my point is that not only will the new ink cure those interaction problems that some of us deal with having lines in our freshly printed images on certain emulsions, it supposedly doesn't dry in the head fast like D2a does. I know if I walk away from my unit for more than 20 minutes, the D2a will totally clog and I have to run a butt ton of cleanings to get it going again, yeah frustrating, but I just try to remember if I'm not tossing a screen right in, Cap that bad boy. Sorry to stray from the laser topic, maybe this one split at one time and I didn't see it. But M&R is working to resolve the issues with the inks that some have had.

Someone needs to put some videos up of the laser thing doing it's deal =)

Hey Bud,

Listen up. I have had every single one of your problems. I've had 9 heads in 2 years.

We just switched to the new K ink. It is not an end all be all. The D2A ink is much better for printing purposes.

Now on the other hand. The new K ink seems to be easier to keep the head clean, as it seams thinner than d2a. Which also equates to a thinner print on your screen, or more see through print on your screen, it doesn't wash out quite as cleanly as D2A does.

One thing you can do however is make sure you are running 1200x900 for d2a, if that doesn't work try 1200x1200. But then you'll need to adjust your rip curve as it will be putting down more ink.  On CP Tex, and chromablue we didn't see any banding issues at 1200x900. SO make sure you have perfect nozzle checks.

But if you are running 6 pass... you literally should have bulletproof black on your screen so you shouldn't have any banding what so ever. We run 12 pass all the time. So your issue may be that the murakami emulsions are super light sensitive, and may start pre-exposing right when you put them on the machine. Leads to bleeding/poor prints.

Also. Please do not flush every so often with the pink stuff. I've been told by a senior tech, that sometimes that can cause more issues. In your capping station use 50/50 distilled water and glycerin.

Above all else D2A absolutely will f*** up your print heads if you have any sort of air in your machine. Make sure the valves are still good.

Set your machine to cap right after you print. Also set it so the temperature goes down a few degrees when the machine idles.


I think we were one of the first shops to get this new K ink, and we've only had it for a couple weeks. So far we aren't having the clogging issues the D2a was having, but I'll report back if it gets worse.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on January 02, 2018, 03:41:18 PM
Danny Updates?

PS. New K ink did not clog at all after being away for 11 days.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: alan802 on February 08, 2018, 03:49:04 PM
Still no new info pertaining to this unit?  That's disappointing, I'd love to get a review from multiple shops on this because later this year we might be going DTS, finally.  Saati, do you monitor discussion forums?  If so, I'm sure you have a few of these sitting in corners collecting dust that you could crate and ship to SRI for a thorough testing.  If it's strong and ready for heavy usage then a proper long-form review could move a lot of units.  We could be persuaded easily if we saw a few shops having good luck with them.  But right now, this looks bad.  Unfortunately no news means that people will let their imaginations run wild, that's how conspiracy theories get going a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on February 08, 2018, 04:07:42 PM
Still no new info pertaining to this unit?  That's disappointing, I'd love to get a review from multiple shops on this because later this year we might be going DTS, finally.  Saati, do you monitor discussion forums?  If so, I'm sure you have a few of these sitting in corners collecting dust that you could crate and ship to SRI for a thorough testing.  If it's strong and ready for heavy usage then a proper long-form review could move a lot of units.  We could be persuaded easily if we saw a few shops having good luck with them.  But right now, this looks bad.  Unfortunately no news means that people will let their imaginations run wild, that's how conspiracy theories get going a lot of the time.


Still lots of testing to be done. We had to ship the unit to long beach shortly after we received it so our testing was very limited. I'm opposed to stating my opinion on the unit until we can do more testing with it. We saw some very promising results as well as some negative aspects that are/have been addressed. The unit is on its way back here for us to do more testing along side saati the first week of march. Once we can dial in more of the workflow and have more emulsions that we have tested I will share those results. The machine itself does have a lot of potential and I'm confident once we have more time with it we will look at making it our standard solution.

Alan, if you want your more then welcome to come up here during testing with saati as I doubt they will have any issue with that. Reading between the lines of your other posts that might be the best thing so you dont think I'm making up something that isnt true  ;D
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: alan802 on February 15, 2018, 10:45:49 AM
Still no new info pertaining to this unit?  That's disappointing, I'd love to get a review from multiple shops on this because later this year we might be going DTS, finally.  Saati, do you monitor discussion forums?  If so, I'm sure you have a few of these sitting in corners collecting dust that you could crate and ship to SRI for a thorough testing.  If it's strong and ready for heavy usage then a proper long-form review could move a lot of units.  We could be persuaded easily if we saw a few shops having good luck with them.  But right now, this looks bad.  Unfortunately no news means that people will let their imaginations run wild, that's how conspiracy theories get going a lot of the time.


Still lots of testing to be done. We had to ship the unit to long beach shortly after we received it so our testing was very limited. I'm opposed to stating my opinion on the unit until we can do more testing with it. We saw some very promising results as well as some negative aspects that are/have been addressed. The unit is on its way back here for us to do more testing along side saati the first week of march. Once we can dial in more of the workflow and have more emulsions that we have tested I will share those results. The machine itself does have a lot of potential and I'm confident once we have more time with it we will look at making it our standard solution.

Alan, if you want your more then welcome to come up here during testing with saati as I doubt they will have any issue with that. Reading between the lines of your other posts that might be the best thing so you dont think I'm making up something that isnt true  ;D

You are reading toooooo much between the lines :).  I'm getting lucky to attend a workshop in March, I doubt I can swing another trip so soon.  Seeing that I haven't been able to leave this place for more than 2 days at a time, for the last 8 years I'm still thinking something will happen to keep me from going to the workshop. 

I've put a lot of thought into this piece of equipment recently, it's pros/cons and potential so therefore I need to be careful with the info I ingest about it.  That may sound strange to some but I will elaborate.  I desperately want this technology to work well.  I mean I REALLY REALLY REALLY believe this is the answer to virtually all of the troubles that have plagued traditional wax/ink DTS machines all these years and furthermore, I honestly believe this could be the reason why I've had this intuition to not dive into a DTS/CTS unit all these years.  Unfortunately I currently don't know ANYTHING about the actual issues that may hurt it's effectiveness and quality of performance.  The way most people feel about DTS is the way I feel about this technology.  And if the price is reasonable, and performance can match the competitive technology...there I go again, dreaming about something that might not ever be a reality.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on March 02, 2018, 03:43:06 PM
Quick update here after having Saati come back out to do more testing with us here. Originally we had some issues with the distance between the screen and the laser due to the registration frame that was on the unit. We had to modify this template in order for the screen to be at the correct focus distance from the lasers. During the initial testing I did not see the results I had anticipated but this was due to our registration jig. After re machining the jig correctly which allowed the screen to be at the correct distance we immediately started to see the quality difference. When we originally went from ink jet dts to wax dts we felt that we saw a large improvement in dot/edge quality and now that we are dialing in the laser we are seeing the same results moving from wax to laser. I will 100% say the quality of the edges and dots coming off this laser are nothing short of amazing. I am extremely impressed with the overall quality of the dots/edges,etc that we are imaging off the laser. Quality wise it's absolutely amazing as far as how the detail is coming out. Again we thought wax was really great but when you compare screens made with wax dts vs laser theres almost no comparison imo.

Theres some workflow/software issues that need to be addressed in order for the machine to really be a star imo. My guess is they are 85% there with everything and with just a little more work for workflow/software related items the machine will 100% be an industry shake up. I'm confident that once we can workout these software related workflow issues it will be head and shoulders above everything else that is an option out there.

It takes a lot to impress me regarding screen quality and I am certainly impressed with the screens I'm seeing come off the machine. For anyone that felt like dts was not giving them great resolution this is probably something that needs to be looked at.


I'll get some macro shots of dots/edges next week and revisit the thread but overall I'd say the machine is ready for lots and lots of shops right now and with some workflow related progress the machine will be able to work in any textile print shop.


Danny
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Maxie on March 02, 2018, 04:26:23 PM
Danny, thanks for the update.
Now all we need is to get Saati to drop the price a bit, when you take into consideration that it has no heads that block up and no inks or wax it's great over time but for smaller shops it's still expensive.
Title: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Alex M on March 02, 2018, 09:45:47 PM
I doubt the price can drop much bc there is no after sales consumables. All the cost of support has to come from a onetime machine sale.***

*** unless they do what Kornit does and charge for service contracts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Printwizard on March 03, 2018, 05:18:31 AM
Nobody, and I mean nobody needs 120lpi to print on a shirt. The most majestical prints I've ever seen (not done by us) have been at 60-70lpi. So if it can hold that, that's all you need. Ever. Period. We are printing on shirts people, not paper.

Just the shear thought of not spending thousands in D2A ink, and 5-7k in print heads every two years makes it an easy buying decision.

Now how quickly does it Image a screen....that's my question. If its right about 1-2 minutes I'd be happy.

We have been running all our CMYK and simulated process plastisol a on white base (with Lycra added makes it flatter) and been running 85 and 95lpi for the last 15 years.  We use old school imagesetter film still.  But saw this at ISS Longbeach and thought it was awesome.   But at 12-14 screens an hour its some big coin.  Imagine if they leased it like a photocopier and charged $150 a month plus $2-5 a screen usage rate. Everyone would have them and they would be shipping these units to tens of thousands of factories around the world...  Hell, I'd even contract to use their emulsion!!
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Doug S on March 03, 2018, 08:11:22 AM
What is the going rate for one of these units?  I’m sure it will be out of my league but I’m curious.  Print wizard, that’s a pretty interesting idea.  I’m like you, I believe most would be on board with that unless they were needing to pump out several screens per day.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: 1964GN on March 03, 2018, 09:29:37 AM
The number I heard was 90k but I don't know how accurate that number is.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on March 03, 2018, 06:16:16 PM
Did we ever find out how quick it was? Did you say 15 screens an hour? 23x31?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Jepaul on March 03, 2018, 09:00:37 PM
Danny, how about a video of it imaging and standard full size back print?  Say 13.5”x17”.   

I heard these things are closer to 2 mins per screen at that size?   If true this tech is a long way away at $90k each. 
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: zanegun08 on March 04, 2018, 02:30:30 AM
imaging and standard full size back print?  Say 13.5”x17”.   I heard these things are closer to 2 mins per screen at that size?

The size of the print doesn't make a difference because it always has to expose the full screen.  On a 23" x 31" that is correct depending on mesh and emulsion, 2-3 minutes per screen.

A hybrid of this, and a full LED exposure would be neat, where it could laser only the image area, and then somehow mask off that area or turn off LED's in that area and expose the rest quicker.  That way if you are doing a small print the total time could come way down.

No consumables is great, and depending on how many screens you are doing, this compared to a wax unit at around 200 screens a day works out to about after 3 years you are ahead as long as there are no need for replacement laser or parts.  Just higher cost up front by almost a factor of two.  May be faster break even / get ahead as compared to a Inkjet CTS as still consumables and more finicky print heads to replace at higher cost.

Cool tech, interesting to see where it goes.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Jepaul on March 04, 2018, 07:46:12 AM
imaging and standard full size back print?  Say 13.5”x17”.   I heard these things are closer to 2 mins per screen at that size?

The size of the print doesn't make a difference because it always has to expose the full screen.  On a 23" x 31" that is correct depending on mesh and emulsion, 2-3 minutes per screen.

A hybrid of this, and a full LED exposure would be neat, where it could laser only the image area, and then somehow mask off that area or turn off LED's in that area and expose the rest quicker.  That way if you are doing a small print the total time could come way down.

No consumables is great, and depending on how many screens you are doing, this compared to a wax unit at around 200 screens a day works out to about after 3 years you are ahead as long as there are no need for replacement laser or parts.  Just higher cost up front by almost a factor of two.  May be faster break even / get ahead as compared to a Inkjet CTS as still consumables and more finicky print heads to replace at higher cost.

Cool tech, interesting to see where it goes.

I can’t see how that would make sense for shops right now at that speed? And at $90k only the really large shops can afford it?  2mins a screen let’s be conservative and say you’ll take an average 1 min between screens. That’s only 20 an hour or 160 a day for 8 hours.  Here at Liquid Graphics it would take 7 of those units.  Yikes!   Am I thinking about that correctly!

If the detail and consumable cost is the driving factor why not just go with the new Signtronic STM unit for $150k that will image in less than 60 seconds?  Sure you have to expose it afterwards but it’s still quicker overall I would think.   

Danny, have you done any printing tests?   
How does the emulsion hold up on long runs? Can you use any emulsion with it?   
Do you have to post expose?

When this thing could play in the 50k range and image 23x31 in less than a minute then I start seeing a big draw.   Right now it’s too close to proven tech like the STM, but then again my 70” TV was 5k five years ago.  Now it’s $1500.  :):)
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: blue moon on March 04, 2018, 09:16:43 AM
part of the problem is nobody is thinking long term. Just like the CTS was going to eliminate film and tape, it is having to deal with head replacements (which are not cheap). There is always something that will have to be maintained or fixed and more expensive the unit, more expensive the repairs and maintenance.
The laser unit has 90 something laser modules in the traveling head which is moving at breakneck speeds. how do you ensure none of them get loose and move out of alignment? And then, what's it going to cost to bring in a tech to get everything back in place? What happens when one of the lasers quits or is putting out less light due to a bad connection?
As Jeffrey said, this is new technology that is very, very cool, but it is slightly early; at least for my taste. The prospect of image-setter quality dots, no consumables, no undercutting is very appealing, but we'll wait for the technology to mature a bit.

pierre
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on March 04, 2018, 11:37:06 AM
JP and Pierre you guys are spot on with it. Current configuration I can see it putting around 150 screens through it in a day which workflow wise is nowhere near a dts printer combined with exposure units. My opinion is in a print shop dealing with textiles time is money. With a single operator we can make over 150 screens here before lunch using wax dts and metal halide exposure then that person is helping in other key areas of the shop. I’ve always said seconds turn into minutes which turn to hours which turn to days which turn to dollars. We make money being efficient not dealing with small slowdowns. What I’m seeing with the laser is it needs to be looked at not as a printer like a dts but like an exposure unit which is what it really is. Certain aspects that create huge slowdowns right now in production is the reintroduction of pin holes due to the screen laying on glass where with dts we do not deal with glass therefore eliminating pinholes. Some Guys in my shop running presses don’t even know what pin holes are because it’s somethinf they’ve never had to deal with. When my screen guy has to become a semi professional glass cleaner and my press guys have to stop to tape pin holes this is a huge problem for workflow efficiency bottom lines. The technology is not fully there yet but with certain changes there’s no doubt eventually these will be making screens much faster without issues like pin holes, field incident reports that cannot be handled quickly, etc. We will be doing much more testing on press with screens this week and start hammering on the machine to see what we can do to improve the workflow. Like any technology it takes time, nearly every time we have introduced something new it took months for us to really make it as good as we thought we could. This thing screams long term potential but for current workflow it’s hard to beat a solid dts with a way to exposure multiple screens at once. And like Pierre leaded onto with our dts we have one print head to deal with if we have an issue but the laser has 96 we are dealing with. Now if the bank of lasers was a drop in unit that all machines had one that came with it as a spare problems like that go down.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on March 04, 2018, 01:33:37 PM
Danny:

You chase high quality dot edges/detail/high lpi - Which you know I am a huge fan of.

Is it worth it to you - right now in your shop- to have a unit like this in your repertoire for designs that need high quality screens?  Or are you able to get the same - perceived - quality with wax?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Jepaul on March 04, 2018, 03:20:11 PM
Danny:

You chase high quality dot edges/detail/high lpi - Which you know I am a huge fan of.

Is it worth it to you - right now in your shop- to have a unit like this in your repertoire for designs that need high quality screens?  Or are you able to get the same - perceived - quality with wax?
If we could just get customers to pay; By The LPI, we would be in business!  LOL.    Not unheard of though I guess.  Target Graphics still does it I think.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on March 04, 2018, 04:02:02 PM
Danny:

You chase high quality dot edges/detail/high lpi - Which you know I am a huge fan of.

Is it worth it to you - right now in your shop- to have a unit like this in your repertoire for designs that need high quality screens?  Or are you able to get the same - perceived - quality with wax?

You bring up a very valid point of discussion. We are doing more and more work with inks such as virus 4cp waterbase. As you know to maximize the benefits of these ink platforms the better quality of screen output the better finished product as well as ability to produce reprints. I’m currently working on linearizing our output on the laser unit in order to start seeing the difference in quality of any on a textile garment. We see difference in quality on the screen but how that translate to the garment is still up for discussion. The quality that I’m seeing on screens is impressive but workflow is such a key part of the equation that for this machine to be game changing it needs to be improved. For now we are using the laser for anything with critical detail as quality of exposing the emulsion is nearly perfect quality.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on March 04, 2018, 07:19:30 PM
I.e.  Lets create perfect screens and then make our t shirts print like they are paper ;) 

That way you can chase higher lpi because of perfect dot shapes, get cleaner dot deposits, potentially even less dot gain than you have experienced with the ROQ platens..... Do the people working in your shop truly realize what you guys accomplish and work towards?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ZooCity on March 05, 2018, 01:58:58 PM
Resolution is real factor if you are running the virus 4cp, those seps are rosette and my opinion is that res really counts there.   You are also laying down a double base of HSA white before printing the top colors which is as close to a sheet of paper on t shirt as you'll ever get!
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on March 05, 2018, 02:18:13 PM
Which to me - sounds like a part of printer heaven... as long as the inks dont get tacky and pick off that super smooth base ;)

Out of all of us, I know Danny can pull it off. 

My question is:

How smooth can that base get?  Maybe throw in a 3rd white using all super high mesh counts?  It would keep the platens super warm and the honeycomb platen has more to overcome when it comes to -retaining- heat.

Can Danny get even less dot gain out of the ROQ platens than he does currently?

With less dot gain, he can go higher LPI and start printing like hes using photographic paper.  With super smooth laser edge quality and a tightly controlled eom, he can start printing like he's using a Heidelberg....

Now whats the highest thin thread mesh available?  I heard from Murakami that they are testing super high S thread that is stable at over 30 newtons....



Now, after all this super fun geeky stuff is over, can we make more money offering what we can get out of this?  What is our ROI for this?

Or long term, is it easier to drop in a digital printer and add bump plates?



For what its worth: if I had the extra cash in a shop like Danny's I would push like he is, just to see whats possible. 
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Maxie on March 13, 2018, 09:09:04 AM
This is from the horses mouth:
The LTS list is 88,995.  It comes with a computer but no rip software.  You need to supply the LTS with a 1 bit tiff file.  Two year warranty.
I understand that if you do a deal to use Saati chemicals you can get a better price.
So all the small guys are still looking for something afordable.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: mk162 on March 13, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
I heard it was under $80 from a Saati Rep.  Maybe that was the price with buying their chemicals..or the maybe $88 includes install and training, shipping, etc.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Rick Roth on March 22, 2018, 10:23:28 AM
The Saati laser looks pretty impressive. They were selling them for 77K at the show not 90. I haven't run the math but it is complicated.  Some considerable cost savings as no expensive head replacements like DTS always need, no consumables, one step process and simplifying our processes always saves labor dollars, and no bulbs to buy or to figure out if they need replacing. That all is before we all figure out if this technology exposes superior screens, which it appears to do.

The only other thing I'll say is that if dealing with Saati, I feel better than I would with some other companies because they never try to BS me and they stand by their products and equipment. They even were extremely helpful to me when I reclaiming power washer was broken and it turned out to totally be our fault from a building wiring issue.

We asked a lot of questions and they seemed to have solid answers about this unit. We still use film and we are thinking of leapfrogging over DTS to the laser.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: brandon on March 22, 2018, 10:51:00 AM
Thanks for posting Rick. Very good info to have planning for the future. We like our CTS unit but technology is advancing so fast it is an amazing time for sure
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: mk162 on March 22, 2018, 10:59:01 AM
The Saati laser looks pretty impressive. They were selling them for 77K at the show not 90. I haven't run the math but it is complicated.  Some considerable cost savings as no expensive head replacements like DTS always need, no consumables, one step process and simplifying our processes always saves labor dollars, and no bulbs to buy or to figure out if they need replacing. That all is before we all figure out if this technology exposes superior screens, which it appears to do.

The only other thing I'll say is that if dealing with Saati, I feel better than I would with some other companies because they never try to BS me and they stand by their products and equipment. They even were extremely helpful to me when I reclaiming power washer was broken and it turned out to totally be our fault from a building wiring issue.

We asked a lot of questions and they seemed to have solid answers about this unit. We still use film and we are thinking of leapfrogging over DTS to the laser.

The screens I saw from it were far superior to an inkjet DTS.  If I was thinking about spending $40k on a new DTS, I would have to look long and hard at the Saati unit.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Jepaul on March 22, 2018, 11:33:04 AM
The Saati laser looks pretty impressive. They were selling them for 77K at the show not 90. I haven't run the math but it is complicated.  Some considerable cost savings as no expensive head replacements like DTS always need, no consumables, one step process and simplifying our processes always saves labor dollars, and no bulbs to buy or to figure out if they need replacing. That all is before we all figure out if this technology exposes superior screens, which it appears to do.

The only other thing I'll say is that if dealing with Saati, I feel better than I would with some other companies because they never try to BS me and they stand by their products and equipment. They even were extremely helpful to me when I reclaiming power washer was broken and it turned out to totally be our fault from a building wiring issue.

We asked a lot of questions and they seemed to have solid answers about this unit. We still use film and we are thinking of leapfrogging over DTS to the laser.

The screens I saw from it were far superior to an inkjet DTS.  If I was thinking about spending $40k on a new DTS, I would have to look long and hard at the Saati unit.
So you would spend $77k on this?   Where did the $40k come from?

Anyone know anyone actually printing with this unit?  The one shop I know that has it can’t use it because the emulsion breaks down after 200 impressions and apparently even post exposing doesn’t fix it. 

Do you have to use a specific or proprietary emulsion with it did they say?
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Colin on March 22, 2018, 12:39:10 PM
The Saati laser looks pretty impressive. They were selling them for 77K at the show not 90. I haven't run the math but it is complicated.  Some considerable cost savings as no expensive head replacements like DTS always need, no consumables, one step process and simplifying our processes always saves labor dollars, and no bulbs to buy or to figure out if they need replacing. That all is before we all figure out if this technology exposes superior screens, which it appears to do.

The only other thing I'll say is that if dealing with Saati, I feel better than I would with some other companies because they never try to BS me and they stand by their products and equipment. They even were extremely helpful to me when I reclaiming power washer was broken and it turned out to totally be our fault from a building wiring issue.

We asked a lot of questions and they seemed to have solid answers about this unit. We still use film and we are thinking of leapfrogging over DTS to the laser.

The screens I saw from it were far superior to an inkjet DTS.  If I was thinking about spending $40k on a new DTS, I would have to look long and hard at the Saati unit.
So you would spend $77k on this?   Where did the $40k come from?

Anyone know anyone actually printing with this unit?  The one shop I know that has it can’t use it because the emulsion breaks down after 200 impressions and apparently even post exposing doesn’t fix it. 

Do you have to use a specific or proprietary emulsion with it did they say?

Post exposure doesn't fix it?  Sounds more like an emulsion issue...?  What are they using?  Potentially a dual cure if post exposure does nothing.

A lot of printers don't understand the limits of the emulsions they work with.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ericheartsu on March 22, 2018, 03:01:06 PM
If it's the shop I think it is, I think they've fixed the issue.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: DannyGruninger on March 22, 2018, 03:11:50 PM
I'm crunched on time right now but  it's been one of those r&d projects where we fix one thing that then creates another issue. Again I think the machine is great for a lot of applications out there but for someone moving from dts to laser there's many items that need to be addressed because we've actually gone backwards in certain areas. I'm a very tough critic when it comes to equipment like this so issues that I am finding with the laser 95% of other shops probably wouldn't blink an eye. The way that I look at the laser is for the price tag it better do everything my dts can do and do it better which right now theres a handful of items on my list the laser cannot do that the dts can. We are still working on the laser everyday as I do believe this technology is where we will eventually be but for us to convert over to it here the machine IMO still has a ways to go(for my shop - again your shop it might be the best thing ever in)


Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: ffokazak on March 22, 2018, 08:18:03 PM
Care to elaborate a bit on some of the more major issues you are seeing Danny?

Whats the biggest faults you see so far?

Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Jepaul on March 22, 2018, 11:37:01 PM
Care to elaborate a bit on some of the more major issues you are seeing Danny?

Whats the biggest faults you see so far?
I heard the laser he was testing reacted with the thread he was testing which reacted with the emulsion he was testing which reacted with the ink he was testing which reacted with with squeegee rubber he was testing which reacted with the reclaimer he was using which reacted with the dehazer he using.
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: phatat2 on November 05, 2018, 02:40:17 PM
hey heard you guys had questions about the saati Lts 6080 i a tech for this machine fire away with the question
here are some things i can tell you about it .it has 96 lazers that pass back and fourth to burn the image directly on the screen useing 110volt for machine and a 110 volt for laptop it can burn image a screen as quick as 2mins and 30 sec depending on emultion and mesh count of course the lazers are rated for 10,000 working hours if you do the math that 3.5 years at 8 soild hours a day any questions let me know
Title: Re: Saati Lazer Exposure unit.
Post by: Frog on November 05, 2018, 02:45:44 PM
Actually, this particular thread is pretty old.
What came up today was the Saati LED replacement for a point light source.
and the main issue was finding this elusive gem on the darn website!
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,23215.msg208554/topicseen.html#new (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,23215.msg208554/topicseen.html#new)