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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: gotshirtz001 on March 31, 2019, 07:12:05 PM
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So I worked a deal where I traded $1500 in equipment for the following:
-(77) Newman 23x31 MZX frames (all round)
-(48) Mixed Newman/DC 28x31 frames (1 square)
-ST-1E Tension Meter
-Tetko Mat Tension Meter
-Older Shur-Loc Stretch Table - flat and free spinning (just missing some small parts and needs a cleaning)
-(2) Newman MZX/M3 Combo Wrench
-Odds and ends like lock strips, extra mesh panels and tube clamp spacers
I run a 2016 M&R 6/4 Sidewinder manual with side air clamps and preparing to add a small auto at some point (12-24 months). Currently in the market for a 23x31 Tri-Loc.
While many of the screens have mesh, my plan is to go with Shur-Loc S-Mesh panels out of the gate.
Looking for:
1. Validation that it was (seemingly) a fair/good deal
2. Pointers for transitioning to rollers (tips and potential pitfalls)
I am focusing on the 23x31s so if anyone is interested in the 23x28s, let’s chat
Thanks!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/a4d19695f09e2ad586b7083011aa9e91.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/d9795ebf169f4f14f55b56c2253896d1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/1a82099ab391867ae1adb17160eb7035.jpg)
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Fair deal IMO, but not worth the hassle to use rollers IMO. They are great and probably superior in the right situations, but after 20 years of doing this, I ditched rollers long ago for GOOD statics with S mesh. Best thing I ever did. MY OPINION!
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Don't worry, you will enjoy the higher-end feel daily with manual printing.
Stretched my first one in 1989. You will love them. They take some maintenance, but will last you almost a lifetime.
They will really show their value when you get an automatic.
Make sure you tape the rollers where the mesh will be contacting the side clamps.
You can also put s mesh in anytime you want. :)
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Personally, I think it's a helluva deal.
$1500 - $250 (rough estimate for value of the 2 meters) / 125 frames = $10 a frame.
For comparison, I paid $15 ea. for my 25 used frames. Not to mention mine had old mesh and really grungy tape and glue residue where I spent hours and hours cleaning them up to be usable. Yours (wrapped in plastic) look to be a lot cleaner.
Everything else you mentioned is then freebies. Oh and just one roll of locking strips is now $75+, when you can even find it available.
The only thing I'm unsure of is.....what works best for your shop? All rounded or 3 + 1? I'm manual, so my ideal Newmans are is 3 + 1.
I'd say you definitely came out on top.
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Personally, I think it's a helluva deal.
$1500 - $250 (rough estimate for value of the 2 meters) / 125 frames = $10 a frame.
For comparison, I paid $15 ea. for my 25 used frames. Not to mention mine had old mesh and really grungy tape and glue residue where I spent hours and hours cleaning them up to be usable. Yours (wrapped in plastic) look to be a lot cleaner.
Everything else you mentioned is then freebies. Oh and just one roll of locking strips is now $75+, when you can even find it available.
The only thing I'm unsure of is.....what works best for your shop? All rounded or 3 + 1? I'm manual, so my ideal Newmans are is 3 + 1.
I'd say you definitely came out on top.
Thanks for that.
The screens seem very decent. All need to be at least reclaimed. Some still have plastisol in them. Many have tape but are not all gummed up.
My plan is to use the all round 23x31 since I have the side clamp press. Also, since the plan is to get the auto eventually, I’d like to work on a seamless transition.
Thanks again
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Don't worry, you will enjoy the higher-end feel daily with manual printing.
Stretched my first one in 1989. You will love them. They take some maintenance, but will last you almost a lifetime.
They will really show their value when you get an automatic.
Make sure you tape the rollers where the mesh will be contacting the side clamps.
You can also put s mesh in anytime you want. :)
Thanks for that advice. I’m looking forward to an improved process.
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By the way, with that Shur-Loc table, I'll be amazed if you actually find a use for those MZX wrenches...outside of clubbing any intruders, lol.
I think that table works with just a set of 4 crescent wrenches for tensions and a socket and ratchet to tighten/loosen the frame bolts. Check out the Shur-Loc video unless the seller gave you a demo. I built a DIY version several years ago that works on the same basic principle.
Oh, you will also need a Torque Wrench to make sure you tighten the bolts to about 40 ft lbs after stretching.
Even a 19.99 one from HF will work
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-62431.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+Low+Price+%28Main%29|Torque+Wrench|62431&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sWk9CHn6S|pcrid|274331137337|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||product|62431|&pgrid=55000445254&ptaid=pla-299277307118&pcid=1425851011&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyoHlBRCNARIsAFjKJ6BtmRxJAmnYx54n7UmcaJwDev8MP6AfE3kZ9wiTJTdM-77eHmiWtVwaAvF9EALw_wcB (https://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-62431.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+Low+Price+%28Main%29|Torque+Wrench|62431&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sWk9CHn6S|pcrid|274331137337|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||product|62431|&pgrid=55000445254&ptaid=pla-299277307118&pcid=1425851011&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyoHlBRCNARIsAFjKJ6BtmRxJAmnYx54n7UmcaJwDev8MP6AfE3kZ9wiTJTdM-77eHmiWtVwaAvF9EALw_wcB)
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Don't worry, you will enjoy the higher-end feel daily with manual printing.
Stretched my first one in 1989. You will love them. They take some maintenance, but will last you almost a lifetime.
They will really show their value when you get an automatic.
Make sure you tape the rollers where the mesh will be contacting the side clamps.
You can also put s mesh in anytime you want. :)
Yeah, I have heard both sides and it seems like it simply comes down to preference... I may very well come to the same conclusion you did.
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For me, 25-28 Newtons (up to 305) is plenty for all my needs.
You won't find much need to try for record stretch tensions. But if you do, let us know how high you got before the mesh snapped :D
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By the way, with that Shur-Loc table, I'll be amazed if you actually find a use for those MZX wrenches...outside of clubbing any intruders, lol.
I think that table works with just a set of 4 crescent wrenches for tensions and a socket and ratchet to tighten/loosen the frame bolts. Check out the Shur-Loc video unless the seller gave you a demo. I built a DIY version several years ago that works on the same basic principle.
Oh, you will also need a Torque Wrench to make sure you tighten the bolts to about 40 ft lbs after stretching.
Even a 19.99 one from HF will work
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-62431.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+Low+Price+%28Main%29|Torque+Wrench|62431&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sWk9CHn6S|pcrid|274331137337|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||product|62431|&pgrid=55000445254&ptaid=pla-299277307118&pcid=1425851011&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyoHlBRCNARIsAFjKJ6BtmRxJAmnYx54n7UmcaJwDev8MP6AfE3kZ9wiTJTdM-77eHmiWtVwaAvF9EALw_wcB (https://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-62431.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+Low+Price+%28Main%29|Torque+Wrench|62431&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sWk9CHn6S|pcrid|274331137337|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||product|62431|&pgrid=55000445254&ptaid=pla-299277307118&pcid=1425851011&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyoHlBRCNARIsAFjKJ6BtmRxJAmnYx54n7UmcaJwDev8MP6AfE3kZ9wiTJTdM-77eHmiWtVwaAvF9EALw_wcB)
Yup. I spoke with Ron at Shur-Loc before I did the deal and he mentioned the wrenches. It’ll be a minor expense.
Thanks again!
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I've got about 40 newmans that I use for mainly sim and 4cp. If I take the time to retension before each job there is absolutely no registration needed and minimal dot gain. The newmans that are finally work hardened, I protect like I would my family because when one of those pop for various reasons it's like losing a family member. :D I would love to have only newmans but in reality, I know I would not have time to retension every frame when needed. I'd never have time off.
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Fair deal IMO, but not worth the hassle to use rollers IMO. They are great and probably superior in the right situations, but after 20 years of doing this, I ditched rollers long ago for GOOD statics with S mesh. Best thing I ever did. MY OPINION!
I totally agree. Sell the roller package now before you get to into it. I think all you will gain is more time in the shop than running the statics like mentioned. Just my .02
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Fair deal IMO, but not worth the hassle to use rollers IMO. They are great and probably superior in the right situations, but after 20 years of doing this, I ditched rollers long ago for GOOD statics with S mesh. Best thing I ever did. MY OPINION!
I totally agree. Sell the roller package now before you get to into it. I think all you will gain is more time in the shop than running the statics like mentioned. Just my .02
while I am 110% on these guys team, I give you credit for trying to better yourself..so many shops get into the comfy zone and never try to better themselves, so good on ya for looking to improve - always in all ways.....
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Appreciate the input from all sides. I am not opposed to statics and S-mesh but there is something appealing about having the flexibility to fix busted screens without sending them out.
This is my side hustle and I only have 1-2 days per week in the shop.
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Appreciate the advice from all sides. I am not opposed to statics and S-mesh but there is something appealing about having the flexibility to fix busted screens without sending them out.
This is my side hustle and I only have 1-2 days per week in the shop.
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Mine is a tiny shop, just me over 90% of the time. Having used Newman's at a previous job, I figured I'd eventually move to using them here. But the longer I'm at this, the more I realize how valuable my time is, and the more I see the need to streamline. It gets hard wearing ALL the hats! When weighing retensionables vs statics, I realized I'd rather outsource my screenmaking (by using statics) than add the maintenance of newmans to my own to-do list. For how seldom I bust screens, the price of replacements is pretty friendly considering the amount of time it saves.
So, I think you got a good price on the Newman equipment, but I encourage you to consider whether it's really the most productive choice for your shop.
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Appreciate the advice from all sides. I am not opposed to statics and S-mesh but there is something appealing about having the flexibility to fix busted screens without sending them out.
This is my side hustle and I only have 1-2 days per week in the shop.
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Mine is a tiny shop, just me over 90% of the time. Having used Newman's at a previous job, I figured I'd eventually move to using them here. But the longer I'm at this, the more I realize how valuable my time is, and the more I see the need to streamline. It gets hard wearing ALL the hats! When weighing retensionables vs statics, I realized I'd rather outsource my screenmaking (by using statics) than add the maintenance of newmans to my own to-do list. For how seldom I bust screens, the price of replacements is pretty friendly considering the amount of time it saves.
So, I think you got a good price on the Newman equipment, but I encourage you to consider whether it's really the most productive choice for your shop.
Seems like the deck is stacking toward statics. Very interesting.
Thanks for the advice. Very helpful.
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How about this?
Mesh a dozen (or so) and use them along with your statics. See how long the Newmans last vs. the statics. I saw where some above mentioned retensioning between jobs. I don't do that. I tension them 3 times before use and by then they stay until they break. I'm just a small guy now but I'm 95+% Newmans.
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One small tip if you've never tensioned them before is to stop about 6 newtons before you reach the desired tension because when you torque the bolts the mesh will reach the tension after tightening especially with s mesh. Atleast that's what I've noticed with a rollermaster.
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we gave up Newmans after trying on several occasions to get them going. The maintenance was too much. We went back to EZ frames and are happy with it. We can restrech here in house and the tension is great.
My suggestion would be to try the Newmans and see what you think. If you decide to get rid of them later you will get more than you paid for them. No risk at all . . .
pierre
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The way I see it, the time is getting spent one way or another. We're either going to put it in in prepress by building & maintaining our screen library, or were going to pay for it on press with slower than needed setups. Id rather pay for it in prepress. Setups go so quicker when screens are at similar tensions in the 24-28N range. The flexibility of being able to use whatever mesh count I want, from any manufacturer is huge to me. It gives us real control, and to me that is a competitive advantage in the marketplace. For me personally it takes 4-5 mins or less per screen to reten and flatten a screen on our shurloc table. From start to finish on a fresh frame we're looking at 10-15 mins. Group like tasks together, cut all of your mesh, position all your rollers, mesh all of your screens and roll so you dont have to switch gears and you'll be surprised how quick you can go. Biggest thing for speed is grouping like tasks...
There is a learning curve, and it is a lot of work to get the library up. But once its up, its well worth it, esp with thin thread. Some of that mesh is so fragile... with mesh protectors on the newmans the mesh never touches the edges of the rack. If we ran statics w/ thin thread I'd be crying all the time. When we do pop screens it sucks, but I know I can get that screen back into production quick if needed without having to ship an aluminum frame. We get rolls of mesh from NBC quite inexpensively. Its more cost effective in my shop to cut bolt mesh and get that frame back up than it is to ship big boxes of aluminum frames on the reg. Been running bolt mesh in MZX ULS for 5 yrs and would not go back.
Also, the mesh protectors from jessup screen supply are the jam FYI. Would not run them without em.
That's just my experience. Do what you think works best for you and your shop. I dove in deep and its been a great ride. That being said, I dove in deep with newmans, so the glasses in which I view this might be skewed.
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Great info. Much appreciated.
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Atomnsend Great points, I can never can understand why someone would go back to static frame? The thing I have used for the past 20 years is white Polygon tape.
https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/ (https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/)
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Atomnsend Great points, I can never can understand why someone would go back to static frame? The thing I have used for the past 20 years is white Polygon tape.
https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/ (https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/)
Is that the white tape that is almost impossible to pull off without leaving a boatload of sticky behind?
Reason I ask is many of the used Newmans I got were loaded with a thick stiff white tape that left the worst glue residue behind.
Also how does that tape do during reclaiming?
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Reclaiming is no problem with a dip tank. The residue can be cleaned off.
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Atomnsend Great points, I can never can understand why someone would go back to static frame? The thing I have used for the past 20 years is white Polygon tape.
https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/ (https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/)
Is that the white tape that is almost impossible to pull off without leaving a boatload of sticky behind?
Reason I ask is many of the used Newmans I got were loaded with a thick stiff white tape that left the worst glue residue behind.
Also how does that tape do during reclaiming?
We used that tape thru the 90's and beyond. A lot of people left it on thru the reclaim process back then. In my opinion it's way overkill as the daily screen tape. We use the natural rubber tape and it pulls with no residue. I do know people that put a small strip on the back of newman's though.
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I only have a handful of newmans now and my problem was getting the mesh square, so I'm like other guys here stats 95%, but one thing I don't think anyone mention is to watch for burbs and sharp edges that might cut your exposure blanket. I had a very small hole in my blanket and could not for the world of me figure out why until a reclaim and it cut my finger from that frame, but once you get dial in your experience might be great using them.
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Atomnsend Great points, I can never can understand why someone would go back to static frame? The thing I have used for the past 20 years is white Polygon tape.
https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/ (https://www.liveactionsafety.com/polygon-white-duct-tape-premium/)
honestly? because we're lazy and don't know how to use them properly......
everything is a system. if you have the knowledge on how to use them, teach your guys how to use them properly, I'm sure you can fly through the tensioning process so it doesn't become a huge drag. More you do it, better you'll be. We only spent a year working with them, I saw better results with Static S mesh -because we lacked knowledge on how to use them properly and I ran our of patience- so I said eff it, sell'em all and let's not over complicate things...properly tensioned S mesh statics work for us. Reclaim is easier, the screens are easier to handle, they just fit our system better....
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The 1st 6 months "maybe because I'm a slow learner" I did a lot of cussing fooling with newmans. Once I semi got the hang of it, it still took time but I got faster. To me there is nothing better then printing with them when I use them especially on higher end jobs. It's then that you see the time invested is worth it. I know honestly that I wouldn't have time to go 100% newmans unless I could find a way to work harden them the first stretch.
I was talking to a shop owner before I ever bought my first set of them and asked him his opinion of the newmans and he told me that they were no better. I asked him how many times he had to stop and re-tension and he told me that he never had. Well, there ya go.
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Dave Filip the owner of Bimm Ridder apparel is the WORLDS biggest roller frame fan and advocate. Dave and I have went round and round over this. I would recommend that anyone using them or that has made a commitment to using them contact him. Just to be clear I AM IN NO WAY ENDORSING THEM AND THE HEADACHE THEY CREATE but dave has the system down( 20 years) to a fine process and all his screens are within 2-3 newtons of each other, Talking to Dave will reduce your learning curve i guarantee that.
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I used them for 14 years, and I CAN build them perfectly. Here is the issue....IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND THE TIME RETENSIONING, THEN YOU HAVE A GLORIFIED STATIC! SIMPLE AS THAT!
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I used them for 14 years, and I CAN build them perfectly. Here is the issue....IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND THE TIME RETENSIONING, THEN YOU HAVE A GLORIFIED STATIC! SIMPLE AS THAT!
in the past 5 years we havent been able to keep an employee long enough to stretch and maintain our newmans...
instead of bolt mesh we switched to panel mesh - much faster to teach.
we basically stretch them on the roller master and shelve them until the next day, retention the next day and reshelve. - repeat until they stop losing tension.
after that they are treated like a glorified static that we dont have to reglue or send out to be restretched.
we have 50 25x36 M3, and 400 23x31 MZX, from all eras - some painted, some not. some black bolt, short bolt, long bolt, some ultralight some not... it gets confusing to teach that some frames you have to aim for 5-10 newtons below your target tension before tightening the bolts and some you dont. these ones you need to clean the bolt and reapply C5A lube and those you dont. these need washers and those dont.
in the end, i am okay with glorified statics that you can restretch in house without waiting, or deal with frame glue.
i wish we could keep someone that knew how to take care of all these frames so we could use bolt mesh and save some money.
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Agreed to all of the above. At IBG I sold all of the older style roller frames. Why? Well, the technology on corner softening was not there yet and, if you had a clamshell Precision Oval and discharge ink in the mix well, recipie for disaster.
Fast forward to JNJ where everything has been pre-engineered by a true visionary. (Will Booth)
So, the roller frames which I had not been a fan of had become a necessity. Making them and treatment is a bit of a craft and many do not want to go down that road. A good table is almost necessary.
Flip side? Well if you are a tension concerned OP then if you go with statics , there are basically two options. Do it yourself or farm it out. There are two adhesive options FYI. And do not overlook freight costs if farming out re-stretching depending on location. Often this may cost more than the application.
The better re-stretchers will often will use an industry based rotary grinder for pre-treatnment. This removes old glue and provides a much better adhesion.
Long story short I have done it different ways with succesfull results. As JC and others have mentioned the screen is a transfer mechanism.
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So TP. If you were setting up your own operation today. All the costs are yours. What way would you go ..Statics Or Newmans. The real deal, Today your ordering screens. What are you going with??
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Hard question to answer. Depends on a lot of variables. Many older autos are not suited for rollers. And again, I would not go any other way without Shurlok panels and a good table. That is money. So many companies do not have the time or care to measure and re-stretch. I get that. That is why many go roller; re-sell and revert to statics. It is obviously a point of view. Some just require a vessel to throw ink in. Others not so much.
I poke around here with a local company here where they coat statics one hand on the bathroom floor. At least one eyebrow raised!
Guess what? Quality of prints are excellent with very minimal misprints. All that said, if the market is fine art reproduction, then I would not go that way.
The answer to the question is I don't know but I will figure it out!
best tp
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Ok, The question is how many of ya'all really use both ?
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Ok, The question is how many of ya'all really use both ?
I have about 40 newmans and 60 or so statics. I use statics for most of my day to day 1 & 2 color jobs. I use the newmans for 4cp and high detail work. I rarely get art that requires the additional effort though. I probably use less than 10 newmans a month.
I did just get 30 or so ez frames and a stretcher that goes with it. I need panels and have to figure them out.
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Here we run about 60/40 shurlocs to newmans.
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We have now about 20 rollers and I still to this day can't really get the hang of doing a very good roller with mesh, bought a bunch of rollers many years ago from a shop going out of biz. Back then I thought they were root to poot cuz we had tons of wood frames and those rollers could be tension like crazy, little did I know I was not getting the mesh square and corner soften LOL, so moire was a friend :o. Now we have just about all aluminum frames still a few wood and those last rollers. Rollers to me even when they were meshed right a and high tension were still messy trying to coat them because of those soft corners emulsion build up and drip, give me a nice tension static and I'm good to go, rollers are for those that really get into screen mesh and have the patience to work with then the right way. 8)
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I still say in a 1-man shop, it's more about what is best for your overall workflow, not about what screen is the "best" choice in a technical or theoretical sense, since either option can produce good results that will keep customers happy. Can properly used & maintained Newmans produce great results? Yes. But do they require more labor than simply ordering statics? Yes. And when you've got one person doing every task in the operation, finding ways to keep the workload down is important. Statics will do that - and they won't be as heavy for manual printing, and won't require extra real estate for a stretching table & tools, which can matter in a small shop. And I think that's relevent to the OP's situation. (...Not that I'd suggest the thread has strayed from that part of the equation or anything... ;) :-X)
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I am into the lively discussion; lots of great perspectives.
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We run about 180 Newmans. More than we really need but what we do is check the tension after each reclaim. If they are under 22 we put them on the side until they can be re-stretched. We re-stretch when things are slow. It takes us about 15 minutes each to take tape off, re-stretch, tape, and label.
I also have lots of statics that we are not using. If anyone wants them I would let them go for $5 each.
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I have always disliked the semi permanent tape thing with the roller frames. Really I got started by refurbishing batch after batch after batch since i bootstrapped this thing. That last thing I ever wanted to do was put tape on it and have to repeat the stripper / wire wheel process again. They just get too nasty with the hardcore tapes combined with a few years of reclaim negligence. We just use the inexpensive plastic mesh protectors from jessup. http://www.screenanddigitalsupply.com/store/1-6-orange-roller-rap-fabric-protector.html (http://www.screenanddigitalsupply.com/store/1-6-orange-roller-rap-fabric-protector.html)
We just tape them like you would a static with the uline packing tape post exposure. Seems annoying to reapply a semi permanent tape after a re stretch. We just pop off the mesh protectors and turn the roller on the side that has lower tension & the least amount of rotation. Rarely do we need to adjust more than one side on a reten.. you're good +/- 2n in either direction so we loosen two bolts, reten that side and torque the bolts. Used a roller master for 5 yrs, but for me the shurloc table is better if you have the one that spins around. Usually makes a flat frame, but if not you can easily flip it and use the magnesium wrench to flatten in about 15-30 seconds. We reten @ 20-22N and aim for 26-28N for all of our thin thread meshes.
Whoever is doing the stretching or retens must have really intense focus and a bit of common sense. If you space out for long and go into robot mode, you can quickly run into issues. Attention and focus is required to build them right. I did manage to one of my stoner reclaim guys to stretch and reten.. but it took a period of months and many popped screens / cursing to get there.