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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Maxie on January 05, 2019, 02:40:31 PM

Title: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Maxie on January 05, 2019, 02:40:31 PM
Up to now I've used Saati 110 80 for printing white on dark, double stroke, no flash.
We get a lot of orders for about 45  shirts and the result we get is not high end printing but acceptable.
I am considering changing the 110 to a S mesh (all our other meshes are S mesh)  but I'd like some recommendations for other options.
One advantage of the 110 80 is that it's tough and lasts a lot longer than the S meshes we use.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: GaryG on January 05, 2019, 05:41:59 PM
Hi Maxie,

I just recently wondered the same thing. I tried the 110s mesh, then the 110/80. Same specs on our Sportsman auto with 60/90/60 squeegee.
Squeegee pressure accordingly for the two different meshes trying to lay ink (Quick white) on top of tee with the s-mesh instead of driving into fabric. The 110/80 was more opaque. Possibly due to taller ink columns. I looked at Theoretical Ink Volume on the respective charts, and if remembering right, the 110/80 was slightly more. I would say it just comes down to each shop and their methods (trough, emulsion, coating, coating person or machine, ink, etc.). Have fun with this. You are a pro- just remember, all others being the equal - change only one variable at a time!
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: mimosatexas on January 05, 2019, 09:16:39 PM
If the art let's us we print one hit whites with 83/71 mesh from safari. It's a thin thread mesh with massive open area. Verticle squeegee, as low as the pressure will go and clear, no double stroke as it causes ghosting from over depositing of the ink. Pallets have to be warm, ink has to be warm, and it doesn't work on a lot of garments, but on something like a g2000 it's stupid nice looking for a one hit. You can still see the mesh impressions if you look closely.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Atownsend on January 07, 2019, 10:04:36 AM
135/55 from NBC. High EOM, low pressure, short ink, max stroke speed. Still a little dependent on art, but you'd be surprised what you can do.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Doug S on January 07, 2019, 10:17:08 AM
If the art let's us we print one hit whites with 83/71 mesh from safari. It's a thin thread mesh with massive open area. Verticle squeegee, as low as the pressure will go and clear, no double stroke as it causes ghosting from over depositing of the ink. Pallets have to be warm, ink has to be warm, and it doesn't work on a lot of garments, but on something like a g2000 it's stupid nice looking for a one hit. You can still see the mesh impressions if you look closely.

I agree with the 83 mesh.  It's definitely a 1 hitter and you definitely don't want to stroke twice.  Even the 1 stroke through the 83 is almost too much.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: 3Deep on January 07, 2019, 10:51:41 AM
Why is getting a one stroke white print so important, I've printed a long time and have always heard people chasing that one stroke white, I've never really got a one stroke white that has satisfied me print wise.  I'm using 135 s mesh and get onestrokes on color inks but still find the need to double stroke the white with a lot less print pressure.  We do print a lot of black shirts and comfort colors, but I will say I gotten a one stroke white on some light color shirts using the 135s mesh, so y'all that got this one stroke white nailed explain to me how your getting it and whats the benefit besides what I think I already know ( speed, nice thin base white, and not a bulletproof print)
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Nation03 on January 07, 2019, 10:59:06 AM
135S would probably be the closest. I dont have many of them because they're a little too delicate, even for S-Mesh. I do most of my white printing through 150-S just fine but I always P/F/P with one stroke each time.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Sbrem on January 07, 2019, 11:46:47 AM
years ago my old shop did a very large order, 100K+, and we used 4xx multifilament mesh with a bulletnosed squeegee. Worked great. Since, our heaviest mesh is 81SDE, basically an 81 S mesh. But like most, it's finer meshes PFP for a thinner hand.

Steve
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Shanarchy on January 07, 2019, 11:50:32 AM
We do most of our 1 color whites with one screen and send it around twice. 150/48 S mesh (180 for detailed stuff). Double stroke the underbase. Single stroke the top white. It doesn't flash on the second round so we the time we lose on 100 shirts is 10 minutes max.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Atownsend on January 07, 2019, 12:58:34 PM
135S would probably be the closest. I dont have many of them because they're a little too delicate, even for S-Mesh. I do most of my white printing through 150-S just fine but I always P/F/P with one stroke each time.

The 135-S from Murakami has a thread diameter of 48 microns like the 150S. Given the lower TPI I'd imagine that they would be super fragile! We still use a lot of 150/48's, but I have found the 135/55 from NBC to be much more durable than the 150/48. Its pretty rare that we bust one. 50% open area like the 150/48 but deposits much more ink, and is less fragile. The 135/48 will deposit more than the 135/55, but not THAT much more... the trade off in durability is worth it to roll with 135/55 IMO... and you can get it in amber color for holding tight lines.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Nation03 on January 07, 2019, 01:02:12 PM
135S would probably be the closest. I dont have many of them because they're a little too delicate, even for S-Mesh. I do most of my white printing through 150-S just fine but I always P/F/P with one stroke each time.

The 135-S from Murakami has a thread diameter of 48 microns like the 150S. Given the lower TPI I'd imagine that they would be super fragile! We still use a lot of 150/48's, but I have found the 135/55 from NBC to be much more durable than the 150/48. Its pretty rare that we bust one. 50% open area like the 150/48 but deposits much more ink, and is less fragile. The 135/48 will deposit more than the 135/55, but not THAT much more... the trade off in durability is worth it to roll with 135/55 IMO... and you can get it in amber color for holding tight lines.

Nice, sounds good. I'm unfamiliar with the NBC. Can you recommend a supplier that sells them prestretched with decent tension?
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: ABuffington on January 07, 2019, 02:36:19 PM
Al; here from Murakami, another mesh to try is LX mesh in the S mesh specs.  We have a unique LX thread for four of our S meshes that prints with better opacity than our S mesh which is already excellent.   For white plastisol it 'gives' during the print process to deposit a bit more ink with less pressure.  RZ values as are smoother with a mesh that has minimal mesh knuckle and can use even less squeegee pressure.  It's worth a look for an even better S mesh for one hit printing.  Available in LX80S (68% open area), LX135S (55% open area), LX150S (51%), LX180S(44%).  While open area may be similar in specs, low RZ value (smoothness of squeegee side surface), and a thread that transfers ink a bit better, the LX in a similar mesh count yields a brighter print.  For those using our S mesh I do recommend more angle than vertical orientation of the squeegee.  This allows for less squeegee pressure with a 75/95/75 and avoids a chopper style press from digging in and pulling hard on the mesh.  This and square corners on your squeegees is the main reason for mesh popping. 

Al
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Atownsend on January 07, 2019, 05:27:02 PM
135S would probably be the closest. I dont have many of them because they're a little too delicate, even for S-Mesh. I do most of my white printing through 150-S just fine but I always P/F/P with one stroke each time.

The 135-S from Murakami has a thread diameter of 48 microns like the 150S. Given the lower TPI I'd imagine that they would be super fragile! We still use a lot of 150/48's, but I have found the 135/55 from NBC to be much more durable than the 150/48. Its pretty rare that we bust one. 50% open area like the 150/48 but deposits much more ink, and is less fragile. The 135/48 will deposit more than the 135/55, but not THAT much more... the trade off in durability is worth it to roll with 135/55 IMO... and you can get it in amber color for holding tight lines.

Nice, sounds good. I'm unfamiliar with the NBC. Can you recommend a supplier that sells them prestretched with decent tension?

I'm pretty sure that they sell finished screens direct, but you'd have to check with them as we always buy rolls and pop it into newmans. Over a certain QTY most stretchers will probably use whatever mesh you want. Easy to drop ship a roll / half roll etc to a stretcher you trust and have them put them on screens. Spot color maybe? I would try to find someone close to you who is familiar with thin thread and see if you can develop a working relationship.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: zanegun08 on January 07, 2019, 06:42:33 PM
Why is getting a one stroke white print so important, I've printed a long time and have always heard people chasing that one stroke white, I've never really got a one stroke white that has satisfied me print wise.

Not only this, but you'll spend more time chasing the unicorn than just throwing this on an auto and going around twice.

48 shirts, at a very reasonable 8 second index for a single operator takes ~7 minutes, so you could go around twice faster than trying to get a 1 hit white, have a better end product, and I think you'd be hard pressed to save 7 minutes by setting up another screen and all that goes with it for this small quantity.

1 screen white with a fast screen to screen to knock out these small 48 piece jobs is better than putting out a subpar product.  Put HSA in it and going around 3 times for a 21 minute print run to give out an even better quality than plastisol in my opinion.

I think even then someone on a manual trying to achieve a good "1 hit white" would take around the same time, and you'd have a subpar quality product by trying to cut corners.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: mimosatexas on January 07, 2019, 08:56:18 PM
I was way more interested in the one hit white when I was all manual, but still use what I learned then to print on the auto. Saving 10 minutes on some jobs is nice when the variables of the job let you get the same result as using a higher mesh and running it around twice. It isn't the norm for us, but it's a nice option. Definitely not a unicorn either, you just have to know what kind of job variables will let you do it.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: GaryG on January 07, 2019, 09:56:37 PM
He's looking for advice on getting a quality print without having to Revolve or use 2 screens.
A 2 stroke white on a regular basis is the norm, but... the Title is one "screen" white, not one "stroke" white.

Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: alan802 on January 11, 2019, 02:02:57 PM
I think this is the thread Dave was talking about.  I could write a book on what we've done and how far we've got, but I'll try to keep it short.  I look at this as a system.  But if you're a shop that isn't dealing with deadlines (I mean having to do double-time to get jobs finished on a regular/daily basis) very often it's probably not going to pay off to chase this.  I can tell you that the amount of labor time that we save by regularly getting one-hits (it's not just white, but for other things like getting a bright red on a steel gray without a base) is in the hundreds of hours per year.  If your shop rate is $75/hr then do the math, that's all profit if you're doing it right.  I'll give you an example of a job we do about 12-15 times per year.  This job has 4 different colorways/variations, black ink on red/gray/tan, white ink on black & navy, khaki ink on military green and gray on charcoal.  This job used to take the better part of a day to get done because it's two locations, and usually a few hundred pieces per variation.  It was 8 2-color setups.  Now, due to the system we're using, it's 8 1-color jobs, which all of you know the difference between a 1 and 2 color can be huge when the colors have to be registered spot on.

The system is made up of several parts, thin thread/low mesh on rollers, a fill stroke (not a flood stroke), fairly calibrated press, good quality/shorter bodied inks, shearing the ink instead of pushing the ink through the mesh, and printing with speed.  There's a little more to it but those are the big ones.  It doesn't take a lot of time and money to transfer into this system, and just doing one or a few of these things by themselves would increase your print quality and production efficiency without a long learning curve.

The system is really a byproduct of trying to do the most work with the least amount of effort.  Running jobs as fast as we can isn't what we're all about, but if we can get the same, or better print quality running the press at 800/hr versus 500/hr, I choose 800.  Because we're going to be able to take advantage of that ability hundreds of times per year, save a boat load of money, that's why we do it.  I like doing videos and posting them to show how fast we are but it has nothing to do with why we do it.   
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: zanegun08 on January 11, 2019, 06:15:16 PM
I like doing videos and posting them to show how fast we are but it has nothing to do with why we do it.

Post a video of your 1 hit white, or 1 hit red on heather grey.

Then bring those prints to ISS and I'll buy you a beer if I think they look as passible as a double hit white.

Need to be on a Next Level 6210, or a Gildan 2000,

See you next week :)
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: mimosatexas on January 12, 2019, 08:07:08 AM
I havent ever gotten a one hit white to look good on a shirt like the NL6210.  The G2000 is pretty much ideal fabric for it though.  Other shirts that work really well are some of the comfort colors (even though I hate those shirts), Cotton Heritage, The Gildan Hammer (H000?), etc.  Those CVC shirts are super fuzzy if I'm remembering right and I just couldnt print with light enough pressure to both matte down the fuzz and get a smooth print.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: Frog on January 12, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
Way back when my business was getting going, I remember one of my first clients in particular who came to me because he was unhappy with the folks who had printed his last order. As became my S.O.P. with new clients like this, I asked about the specific complaint. It was because the white was not white! The other printer actually gave him some excuse like "oh, that's our standard printing. If you wanted a whiter white, it costs a little more" Kinda like well drinks rather than a requested brand at your bar! (btw, back in those days, whites were not nearly as friendly and took a lot more effort to print)
So, although twenty of so years later, the translucent look became popular, especially with soft hand plastisol and the rise of expensive WB designer shirts, I have always shot for white being white.
I contend, that unless there is the understanding beforehand of sacrificing opacity for, hand, an intentioal vintage look, or in some instances even price, a white print should leave no evidence of what color shirt it is on!
That said, Maxie did start this thread out by saying that his client was not looking for high quality in this instance.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: mimosatexas on January 12, 2019, 07:47:18 PM
I only consider it a one hit white if it is 100% white with no fuzz or roughness to the print. We do names and numbers and other finishing stuff of shirts already printed by a bunch of other shops in town,  and I'm shocked how horrible some of them are at actually printing. Just yesterday we had shirts couriered over that were definitely print flash print white on black and the image was less opaque white than our standard single stroke base white through a 150S. They also weren't even properly cured...but that's a whole different issue. This was from a 3 auto shop with decades of history too.
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: CBCB on January 21, 2019, 07:21:20 AM
and I'm shocked how horrible some of them are at actually printing. Just yesterday we had shirts couriered over that were definitely print flash print white on black and the image was less opaque white than our standard single stroke base white through a 150S. They also weren't even properly cured...but that's a whole different issue. This was from a 3 auto shop with decades of history too.

Do you tell clients about this? How? We have a similar situation locally where some of the work is just so bad. I don’t understand why clients don’t care and I want to show/tell them the difference.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mesh for one screen white.
Post by: mimosatexas on January 21, 2019, 01:07:01 PM
We handle it diplomatically when appropriate.  We would never contact the end client and throw another shop under the bus when that shop is our client and we are just doing finishing work.  If the client brings the work to us, we usually will casually mention actual issues like curing, placement, etc and frame it as us simply informing them so they can handle it with the other shop if they choose to.  If the client mentions the issue or just being unhappy with the results we absolutely will say it doesn't meet our standards, show them how and show them our samples, and go from there.  Mostly I am just shocked at how shitty other shops are on basic stuff a lot of the time, but I wouldnt ever encourage straight up bashing another shop...