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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Shanarchy on September 08, 2014, 04:43:28 PM

Title: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Shanarchy on September 08, 2014, 04:43:28 PM
I have 50 screens I need to re-mesh. I've really come to like the Shur-loc panels, but think the cost will be prohibitive for me on it and I will be doing them the conventional way.

I am nervous about the Murakami smart mesh as my screen guy has popped the few I've tried in reclaim, on top of the few I popped in stretching. I know this is an obstacle we really need to overcome down the road.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Links?
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Inkworks on September 08, 2014, 05:21:07 PM
We're sticking with the S and LX even though they are so delicate and the learning curve is a bit costly. the benefits outweigh the cost of tuition for learning how to handle them.

Dial down your tension a bit, you really don't need to be flirting with that fine line near as much to get the best out of them as with standard mesh. You shouldn't be popping them during tensioning.

That said, even with lower than max tension, they are delicate and people just need to handle them gently. Set up the same image on the same mesh count on an S or LX mesh and a standard mesh and have your guys pull a few prints with both. it should be an easy sell and after they "buy-in" it's easier to get them to quit throwing them around.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Printficient on September 08, 2014, 06:15:55 PM
I have 50 screens I need to re-mesh. I've really come to like the Shur-loc panels, but think the cost will be prohibitive for me on it and I will be doing them the conventional way.

I am nervous about the Murakami smart mesh as my screen guy has popped the few I've tried in reclaim, on top of the few I popped in stretching. I know this is an obstacle we really need to overcome down the road.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Links?

What counts?  Bolt mesh is what I always used for the options it gave me.  Would be in the $5 - $17 per yard range.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Parker 1 on September 08, 2014, 06:39:03 PM
Murakmi:
125/71
135/64-fasing out
160/64-will replace with 160/48s
200/54-fasing out
225/40s
330/30s

This is what we use day to day, all shur-loc panels on MZX app. 150 screens in rotation now.  Also have some 60/140 and 86/100 for glitters gels and HD inks.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Shanarchy on September 08, 2014, 07:46:16 PM
I have 50 screens I need to re-mesh. I've really come to like the Shur-loc panels, but think the cost will be prohibitive for me on it and I will be doing them the conventional way.

I am nervous about the Murakami smart mesh as my screen guy has popped the few I've tried in reclaim, on top of the few I popped in stretching. I know this is an obstacle we really need to overcome down the road.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Links?

What counts?  Bolt mesh is what I always used for the options it gave me.  Would be in the $5 - $17 per yard range.

What I've been using is 110, 160, and 200. I am considering switching the 110's to 125.

I know if I go the smart mesh route I would need to up those mesh counts. Who sells the smart mesh by the yard? If I stretched them from bolt mesh, as opposed to panels, at least the waste factor wouldn't be as expensive as we learn to properly handle them here.

Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Printficient on September 08, 2014, 08:50:21 PM
125 is $5.30 per yard 60" wide
160 is $6.90 per yard 60" wide
200 is $8.25 per yard 60" wide
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: TCT on September 08, 2014, 09:10:37 PM
Northwest Graphic sells it by the yard...
nwgraphic.com (http://nwgraphic.com)
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: KevWilso on September 08, 2014, 09:53:49 PM
http://www.rivercitygraphicsupply.com/products/screen-mesh/murakami-smart-mesh (http://www.rivercitygraphicsupply.com/products/screen-mesh/murakami-smart-mesh)

I have the bolt mesh stocked and ready to ship.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: bimmridder on September 08, 2014, 10:20:29 PM
So you're breaking them when you stretch them, but Shur-Locs are too expensive? Help me with the math.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Shanarchy on September 08, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
Thanks Sonny and Kevin!

Sonny, what brand mesh is that for?

Dave/Bim, I popped a few Shur-loc smart mesh panels while stretching them. Then I got a few to work for me, but they didn't survive reclaim. Which makes me think I would be better off with stretching these 50 frames with normal mesh (sefar, satti, etc)

The after thought was maybe I just need to bite the bullet and we all need to learn how to handle them here. So if I stretched them with Murakami roll mesh it would cost me appx 1/3 of the price per screen vs murakami panels. Of course this brings on the labor vs material cost argument.

Also, to clarify, my initial post was to see what mesh brands everyone was partial to (not mesh count) if I was to not go with the smart mesh.

Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Printficient on September 09, 2014, 06:28:05 AM
Basically it is Saati Smart Mesh.  I say basically because we by it direct from the weaver that Saati uses in Italy. 
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Shanarchy on September 09, 2014, 10:05:46 AM
Basically it is Saati Smart Mesh.  I say basically because we by it direct from the weaver that Saati uses in Italy.

So it's made by the same company which makes it for Saati? And it's a "smart mesh", which would be a thin mesh, right? What is the thread micron? Great pricing on it no matter what it is.

Has anyone on here used this mesh from Sonny yet?
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Sbrem on September 09, 2014, 12:35:34 PM
Not from Sonny, but we've used plenty of Saati mesh over the years. High quality product. And "s" threads have been around as long as I've been in the trade, and that's pretty damn close to 40 years. It is a little tougher to get used to, but as said, the trade-off is worth it. More ink down, and higher resolution is hard to beat...

Steve
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: islandtees on September 09, 2014, 01:58:57 PM
Basically it is Saati Smart Mesh.  I say basically because we by it direct from the weaver that Saati uses in Italy.

So it's made by the same company which makes it for Saati? And it's a "smart mesh", which would be a thin mesh, right? What is the thread micron? Great pricing on it no matter what it is.

HAs anyone on hear used this mesh from Sonny yet?
We purchased bolts of 110, 156, 180 and 230 from him. The mesh has been fine. Couldn't find a difference between this and Sefar, which we were using.
At his prices you can build screens for Aprox $5.00 in mesh per screen.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Rockers on September 11, 2014, 04:24:08 AM
I have no compared the % of open area of Saati mesh to Murakami Smartmesh.  Murakami mesh beats Saati  on every mesh count. So where do I find the Saati smartmesh?
As for mesh counts we use
Murakami
150-48
180-48
225-48
330-30

I assume you can alternatively go as well for NBC mesh which is almost identically to Murakami mesh.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Underbase37 on September 11, 2014, 09:27:05 AM
Absolutely love the Murakami mesh, I'm not sure I will ever use another mesh ever again..... Yes it can be fragile, but its worth getting used to, for me the pros outweigh the cons.

Murphy37

Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: starchild on September 11, 2014, 09:38:18 AM
So it's made by the same company which makes it for Saati? And it's a "smart mesh", which would be a thin mesh, right? What is the thread micron?

A thin mesh would be a "S" mesh-
The thread thickness/thinness will give the ink a shorter distance to travel
The thread smaller diameter reduces- pressure drop (The ink flow slows down in the middle of the open area where the threads are at it's highest axis, the open area is the most narrow)
The increased open area affords the squeegee to align the ink pigments (feed) with less effort and encourages healthier ink volumes.

The "smart mesh" has certain properties over other meshes-
When it's weaved the threads are even in both warp and weft directions- Balance is built in..
The threads have a special coating that lowers it's surface tension beyond any inks that passes through it- It clears easily reduces ink clinging.


Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Rockers on September 11, 2014, 05:58:26 PM
I still did not manage to find a Saati mesh that compares to the Murakami mesh. Could anyone point me in the right direction please. Just wondering if I`m looking in the wrong place. A link would be great.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: RICK STEFANICK on September 11, 2014, 06:27:36 PM
reality for us is.. the cheap aluminum frames with whatever mesh the little Chinese guy uses ..when they rip we throw them away..or hey last month we bought some nice tight stretched used wood screens for 2.00 each.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Frog on September 11, 2014, 09:26:47 PM
reality for us is.. the cheap aluminum frames with whatever mesh the little Chinese guy uses ..when they rip we throw them away..or hey last month we bought some nice tight stretched used wood screens for 2.00 each.

Watch out Rick, you're trampling on what is considered sacred ground for many here. We have a new paradigm in the realm of frames and mesh. :o
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: mimosatexas on September 11, 2014, 09:55:35 PM
I can't imagine going back to cheapo ebay frames after using the S-mesh statics.  I think I will be upgrading to rollers very soon though since I am maybe a week away from finishing my screen room and having the room for a stretching table finally.  I dread having to use my standard mesh screens, unless they are 110's and I'm doing school stuff with plastisol or 230+ for some top colors and poster work.  Otherwise, I am basically at a point where I am using 180S or 225S for basically everything, and 300S for the occasional black detail screen.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Frog on September 11, 2014, 10:12:52 PM
See Rick, I warned you! There's the first volley! ;D
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: mimosatexas on September 11, 2014, 10:21:01 PM
:D  Don't get me wrong, ghetto frames can still do good work, but my body LOVES the S-mesh since I am still a manual only printer and my volume has been increasing rapidly...
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Frog on September 11, 2014, 11:06:56 PM
Don't get me wrong, I was just warning Rick of the trend here. And the "ghetto" appellation needs to be earned by something a little more Mickey Mouse than properly stretched mesh glued onto commercially made static frames. Let's at least nail our own frames together before stapling the mesh. (if we don't cut our own grooves for a cord, the first true retensionables)
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: mimosatexas on September 11, 2014, 11:43:41 PM
Don't get me wrong, I was just warning Rick of the trend here. And the "ghetto" appellation needs to be earned by something a little more Mickey Mouse than properly stretched mesh glued onto commercially made static frames. Let's at least nail our own frames together before stapling the mesh. (if we don't cut our own grooves for a cord, the first true retensionables)

My first screens were goodwill sewing hoops stretched with pantyhose and painted with elmers glue.  I printed with thickened coffee.  It sucked.  I agree the ebay frames are more cheap then ghetto. :)

I fully support using whatever is affordable and gets the job done, but o man are those S mesh statics sweet...
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Sbrem on September 12, 2014, 09:23:45 AM
Don't get me wrong, I was just warning Rick of the trend here. And the "ghetto" appellation needs to be earned by something a little more Mickey Mouse than properly stretched mesh glued onto commercially made static frames. Let's at least nail our own frames together before stapling the mesh. (if we don't cut our own grooves for a cord, the first true retensionables)

My first screens were goodwill sewing hoops stretched with pantyhose and painted with elmers glue.  I printed with thickened coffee.  It sucked.  I agree the ebay frames are more cheap then ghetto. :)

I fully support using whatever is affordable and gets the job done, but o man are those S mesh statics sweet...

That is friggin' hilarious...

Steve
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: tonypep on September 12, 2014, 10:44:35 AM
Waterbase=pretty much whatever is laying around. H20 don't care
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Frog on September 12, 2014, 11:31:09 AM
Waterbase=pretty much whatever is laying around. H20 don't care

Yeah I'm a little surprised at the trends towards rollers and waterbase seeming to move together.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: RICK STEFANICK on September 15, 2014, 09:28:30 AM
See Rick, I warned you! There's the first volley! ;D

lol. its cool. its been a tough year we use what gets us by right now
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: shurloc on September 15, 2014, 04:55:33 PM
For those wondering, Murakami really has the thin-thread mesh nailed, but the others make a few counts as well.

Saati: 81/70 - 196/48 - 230/40 - 305/31 - 355/31

Sefar: 83/70 - 195/48 - 230/40 - 305/31 - 355/31

Murakami - 80/71 - 110/71 - 120/48 - 135/48 -150/48 - 180/48 - 200/48 - 225/40 - 300/30 - 330/30 - 350/30

You can see that Murakami just has more options - but we will keep pushing our reps to pay attention.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: bimmridder on September 16, 2014, 09:25:11 AM
Sefar: 83/70 - 195/48 - 230/40 - 305/31 - 355/31

I've been using these for over 15 years. Nothing new, but I do like them.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: ABuffington on September 17, 2014, 03:28:16 PM
Hello Printficient and all readers here:

Printficient, sorry you do not sell Smartmesh.  It is a trademark of Nittoku Corporation from Japan who sells it only through Murakami Screen USA.  Saati does not make Smart Mesh, period. Please stop confusing the forum with mis-information.  thank you in advance, I know we are all trying to make business but this isn't right to say Saati makes Smartmesh, and the mesh they do make nowadays is not the same as ours, or even close. Unfortunately I have been requested to forward your comment about selling Smartmesh made by Saati to our corporate offices, they will be in contact.

Here is the real deal on Smart mesh:

1. Smartmesh uses a proprietary thread that is a low elongation thread.  This is how it maintains excellent registration during print and retains excellent workable tensions.
It requires good handling techniques, the prints speak for themselves.  Dot on dot register, better opacity with S mesh base plates, treated threads above 280 to transfer those pesky fine halftones better with less squeegee pressure.

2. It requires you look at your stretching processes.  It reaches tension much faster than other meshes due to it's low elongation properties.  Most other mesh stretches like a rubber band which loses more tension over time, can make registration difficult at lower tensions.  I have specific recommendations to help any shop print better with this mesh, too much info to write up here, so hit me up with your issues so I can help.

3. Evaluate the current tensions you are printing at.  Do not combine a 20 newton Smart Mesh 150S with 8 newton or less older 300's.  Why?  Because you will have to put off contact at 1/4" on the 300's and 1/8th inch on the 150S.  Most shops don't bother to change off contact, or round off squeegee corners and the result is a popped screen.
Reclaiming, degreasing, set up are all shop specific so a call on how to best use it goes a long way.

4. At lower tension levels Smartmesh will still hold excellent register and have good print qualities.  High tension only needs to be high enough to get a sharp well registered print.  More tension is not necessarily good.  Pallets are rarely leveled perfectly, heads may have been adjusted with more off contact and super high tensions become a headache.  Optimum working tensions in the 17-22n range work well and prevent popping.  If your shop is set up right, sure bump the tensions to get better peel, or faster squeegee speeds.  I hear comments that "I print at 35 newtons, no less". If the mesh and your shop can handle that great, most cannot due to heavy production needs that alter pallet levelness, no change in off contact due to deadlines, or personnel who know how to load but have no idea how to level pallets or set off contact. 

Many here on the forums have made great comments about Smartmesh, which comes in many thread diameters for the needs of your shop.  Once fine tuned for your set up it performs exceptionally well.  If you are having any issues with Smartmesh or where to get it please contact me directly so I can help trouble shoot any issues you may have.  We can also drop ship from here through your Murakami Dealer if your local Murakami Dealer doesn't have a particular count in stock.

abuffington@murakamiscreen.com
323.697.4334
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Printficient on September 17, 2014, 04:08:03 PM
Alan I said we get it from the same weaver.  We buy direct from the maker and have more mesh on hand than anyone in the states.  About 1.5 million dollars worth at any one time.  It is Italian mesh from Italy.  Sorry if it confused anyone.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: ABuffington on September 17, 2014, 04:59:38 PM

Quote from: Printficient on September 09, 2014, 06:28:05 AM

    Basically it is Saati Smart Mesh.  I say basically because we by it direct from the weaver that Saati uses in Italy.

Quote from Post following your post above:

So it's made by the same company which makes it for Saati? And it's a "smart mesh", which would be a thin mesh, right? What is the thread micron? Great pricing on it no matter what it is.

Has anyone on here used this mesh from Sonny yet?

You follow up with another misleading comment:

Alan I said we get it from the same weaver.  


Here are the misleading quotes above where you say it's basically Smart Mesh from Saati, you go on to say it's from the same weaver. No Smartmesh (TM) has ever been made by Saati. Smartmesh is a registered brand worldwide, The S in S-mesh is an American designation for thread thickness as in SS, S, M, T, HD, from thinnest thread to thicketst thread,  the rest of the world uses metric and states it in microns.  So a 300/T is a 300/34.  A 150/S is a 150/48 elsewhere.

You do not get it from the same weaver that makes Smartmesh, because they and Murakami go back to the beginning of both companies and we are the exclusive distributor in the Western Hemisphere.  You sell Saati mesh, not Nittoku mesh.  You called your product Smart mesh.
Your misleading comments are noted.  I suggest you clarify yourself and set the record straight.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Printficient on September 17, 2014, 05:50:27 PM
You are correct.  We get it from the same weaver that makes Saati which is what I said.  You are also correct that Saati does not make "Smart" mesh but has five different highly efficient mesh technologies for the industry.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: ABuffington on September 17, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
So why do you use the term Smart Mesh then?  This is not your trade mark, brand, or product, yet you lift a trademark from the thread like you are associated with Smart Mesh?

Stick to your product names.  Thanks.

Alan
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: Rockers on September 17, 2014, 06:39:02 PM
Still looking at Saati`s mesh data, there is not one mesh that compares in terms of % of open area to the Smartmesh. Loving ours especially since we now can buy it in 5 meter minimums directly of Murakami.
Title: Re: what's everyone liking for mesh these days?
Post by: TomTshirts on January 10, 2019, 04:14:07 PM
I know this hasn't been posted in for a while, but there are a few posters asking what Saati sells with similar % open areas to compete with Murakami Smartmesh.

That would be Saati's Hi-Dro Mesh line.

http://www.saati.com/hi-dro.php (http://www.saati.com/hi-dro.php)

For example, they have a 110-64 that's 53% open, to Murakami's 110-71 48% open. They offer less s-thread meshes than Murakami, but still enough to cover what most screen printers would want.

I have not used these and do not know how they compare to Murakami in actual use, I'm just pointing to this as an answer to people's questions.