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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: trebor on April 10, 2018, 08:58:53 AM

Title: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: trebor on April 10, 2018, 08:58:53 AM
I've finally decided to make the jump to digital.
Considering the purchase of an I Image STE on the secondary market. I am satisfied with the condition of the machine and it's functionality. I have researched the service history of the machine. Actual usage of the machine seems minimal compared to its capability. Have seen the machine in person and done nozzle check and Clarity Coverage test. I have been assured by M&R that it is not old technology. Now I am trying to figure out a fair offer.

2014 I Image STE

How much?
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: kirkwad on April 10, 2018, 09:14:15 AM
How many print heads does it have?
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: blue moon on April 10, 2018, 10:06:14 AM
find out how much is the new one. Then cut it in half. With M&R equipment it will probably be closer to 60%, maybe even a little more. So that's a reasonable price. . .

Next part of the equation is how bad you want it and bad does the other party need to sell it. If you are dead set on getting one and can pay 20% less than new (for a like new unit) it's still a good deal. All said and done, for regular used equipment I would be looking to pay no more than 60% of what it was new.

pierre
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: trebor on April 10, 2018, 10:56:47 AM
How many print heads does it have?

3
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Colin on April 10, 2018, 12:41:14 PM
Why are they getting rid of it...?

Also, I have learned here from personal experience - do a right and left bias print for each head so you can see that the nozzles are performing how they need to.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: GraphicDisorder on April 10, 2018, 12:46:51 PM
Personally id have a M&R tech check it out OR just buy a new one. This is SUCH a key to any shop after they get it it would be a shame to get a turd.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: mk162 on April 10, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
I would agree 100% on the tech.  We had ours set it up and show us how to use it.  Invaluable.

Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: ffokazak on April 10, 2018, 02:30:40 PM
I bought mine used, and had no issues until I switched to D2A. ( Who other can of worms )

If you are handy you can figure out the machine, it is not very complex.

Best thing I did was move down from a 2 head machine to a single head.

Best part is M&R have skilled techs who can help via phone, and that is why I continue to buy their equipment.

Good luck with the new machine !
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on April 10, 2018, 10:50:58 PM
Take 6k off the price. Have 3 new heads installed with the new TK6 ink. COmpletely flush entire machine. Wouldn't touch it otherwise.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: kirkwad on April 11, 2018, 08:43:55 AM
Take 6k off the price. Have 3 new heads installed with the new TK6 ink. COmpletely flush entire machine. Wouldn't touch it otherwise.

What is this new TK6 ink for the I-Image I've heard a few people talk about? I can't find anything on M&R's site or the internet aside from forum posts about it.

*edit*

Did another search for T6 ink & found it on their store. Duh. What is the difference & benefit of this new ink?
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Colin on April 11, 2018, 08:56:40 AM
M&R is having us switch today - I was told it is basically closer to water in viscocity than the D2a.

The D2a is a bit stickier/thicker.

My assumption is that the print head does not need to work as hard to move the T6 compared to the D2...
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: brandon on April 11, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
We are switching the ink as well. Just have make a date in the next couple of weeks to get a couple of days ahead of screens and have film back up and running just in case something unexpected happens. Because when you make plans, life happens.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: kirkwad on April 11, 2018, 11:07:26 AM
It'd be interesting to hear how the ink switch went during & after, and if any problems or improvements occurred as a result. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Dottonedan on April 11, 2018, 09:47:39 PM
I'm hearing great things about the T6. For me and Tony, we would only switch from D2A for the simple reason that it sounds like we will not need to do cleaning (as much) or more like prescribed. We wipe the head plate and cap station more often that normal just to keep it from collecting small dust fibers. We do a lot of comfort colors and even though our screen room is away and blocked off, there are still fibers in the air.  The D2A is thicker. We get great prints from the D2a. Can do 65-75lpi-85lpi just fine. Tony did one at 100lpi, burned screens and printed it on a shirt but the art/seps were fitting for that. So as long as we can still get that with the T6, (I'm sure we can), then we may switch as well.

3 Heads is a fast machine.

In fact, That might be a great new business for me. :)  Buying a shops older machine, updating it and repairing and re-selling. Hmmm.
I still do an occasional training/consultation, but it's always got to be over a weekend or during a holiday or long vacation. (gotta day job now).
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Dottonedan on April 11, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
One warning on the switching, be sure to have a Tech log in and change the settings themselves. Don't try it on your own without phone assistance. You need to filters and you need to flush the old out properly. (Properly, is the key word). Too many people can easily get the purging and flushing process messed up. Then head temp and neg pressure need adjusted.

Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on April 11, 2018, 10:38:45 PM
I'm salty/sour/pissed off that M&R ever had D2A in our machine. It caused over $10,000 in damage over 1 year.

GET THAT PIECE OF S##$ INK OUT OF YOUR MACHINE NOW. It doesn't matter how you care for your machine, how well you clean it. I'll say this time and time again. Our machine was used for 4 hours, 4 days a week, and was CLEAN. It's literally like FORD telling you to pour melted twizzlers into your cars oil and expecting the car to run fine. Sure it's going to run for a while, but hey once the motor quits working YOUR SOL, and FORD says it's YOUR fault, and YOU have to pay for it.

The machine does what it's supposed to, except for all its quirks. D2A is the devil.

T6 is fine, no issues. Call and have someone walk you through the changeover. Let them personally make the adjustments via teamviewer and log it.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Dottonedan on April 11, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
LOL  WOW.  I like your emphasis.

I'm with ya. If they or you could determine for sure, your issue had been due to the D2A ink, then you should have a good argument. Determining that tho, is difficult.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Colin on April 12, 2018, 08:41:15 AM
I still need to update my thread on blurry images - but I will chime in here a little.

We got the T6 put in our machine yesterday.  Our tech found that a negative pressure of -1.6 was best for our shop.  Which is realllly low apparently.

I would definitely have a tech help on getting the settings right for your shop.  These machines are very delicate and need to be BALANCED properly for your environment!
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on April 12, 2018, 08:58:59 AM
Make sure your humidity is higher in the area with the ST. If you have a de-humidifier sitting next to or near the machine and less than 30% your asking for dry heads also. Our wash out booth is nearby so we always have a good humidity level. Screens are in their own room.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Underbase37 on April 12, 2018, 09:51:02 AM
Lucky,

Did you see a difference in ink density when switching from D2 to T6 ?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Colin on April 12, 2018, 04:02:53 PM
Not sure honestly....

But I did have a screen today where I missed 1-2% dots when separating..... on my 225s mesh @ 60 lpi - I overexposed to try and clip them.... yea they still sprayed out >.<

Murakami T9 with diazo..... 

So the dots/ink is dense enough for that.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: LuckyFlyinROUSH on April 12, 2018, 07:21:18 PM
MMm...not so much density, as you notice opacity. T6 seems a little less opaque. Still seems to block light just fine though.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: blue moon on April 13, 2018, 10:26:11 PM
Not sure honestly....

But I did have a screen today where I missed 1-2% dots when separating..... on my 225s mesh @ 60 lpi - I overexposed to try and clip them.... yea they still sprayed out >.<

Murakami T9 with diazo..... 

So the dots/ink is dense enough for that.
Is yhis the linearized dot? What lpi?
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: DannyGruninger on April 14, 2018, 12:48:41 AM
Not sure honestly....

But I did have a screen today where I missed 1-2% dots when separating..... on my 225s mesh @ 60 lpi - I overexposed to try and clip them.... yea they still sprayed out >.<

Murakami T9 with diazo..... 

So the dots/ink is dense enough for that.
Is yhis the linearized dot? What lpi?

I will say anyone that can hold a 1-2% linearized dot is on a different level. I want to think we are good here with what we do and holding a true linearized 5% is something we strive for. 1-2% we will never get from what I’ve tested. Now that I’m doing some consulting I’ve been measuring more outputting devices and I’m seeing every dts or film printer out putting with huge gains. I went back and looked and at 50% the average dot is actually 69% and 10% is 18%. It’s a shame the industry can’t wrap their heads around linearized output as that would be an initial step to standardizing which imo this industry lacks.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Colin on April 14, 2018, 10:12:36 AM
I will be one of the first wave of printers to jump in and say the dot curve is not perfect on any machine.  The iimage has a 7 picoliter droplet.  Thats tiny, but not tiny enough for higher lpi and the creation of fine - clean - dots.

After the new print head was installed I did notice my 50% dot @ 60 lpi was closer to 55% - 60% and I need to spend some time figuring where all the shift is and create a new curve.  The guy who looked at my machine and did the head install/recalibration and tracking down all my issues said it should be fine... Should have made him check it >.<

With that said, the 1-2% dots the machine gave me, are tiny as f*ck.  The ink was dense enough (T6) and on a 225s mesh with a 50% addition of exposure time - It still developed.  It was rough to develop it - but it was there.  Which tells you 1) great emulsion and proper dryness of the screen 2) the dot is dense enough to stop light. 

Is there an article anywhere about how to get (close to) a true lineralization of iimage halftone output?  I have had to eyeball everything in the past...
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: Dottonedan on April 14, 2018, 07:11:46 PM
Quote
I will say anyone that can hold a 1-2% linearized dot is on a different level. I want to think we are good here with what we do and holding a true linearized 5% is something we strive for. 1-2% we will never get from what I’ve tested. Now that I’m doing some consulting I’ve been measuring more outputting devices and I’m seeing every dts or film printer out putting with huge gains. I went back and looked and at 50% the average dot is actually 69% and 10% is 18%. It’s a shame the industry can’t wrap their heads around linearized output as that would be an initial step to standardizing which imo this industry lacks.


To use the words of one of our past Presidents, "That depends on what your definition of IS is".

It's totally possible to hold 1% dot on press.  The question is, is that from a standard mesh and a standard LPI as we know it, or is that from a lower lpi and a high mesh?  Think 45lpi on a 350 mesh. Then yes, you can hold 1% dots. It has to fit.

You are doing very good at holding 5% dots in a linearized output on typical mesh and typical halftone LPI. It can get better.
Pierre for example, holds a 2% on typical mesh and he is linearized. Not sure how he sets everything else up but I'm proud of that guy. ;)

As for image output devices, they do not linearize their machines because it's futile until it gets to your one shop with yours one shops variables and then you can fine tune your output to fit your needs. Different environments play a role in output. If they did it in their production facility you would still get different results in your shop.

Also know, one setting doesn't work on all machines. A setting can get you closer, but not dead on for your machine in your shop. For example, I've seen in some shops (your I-Image setting), or at least it was named as yours. You must have given that to a few people you know. It works well for the most part much better than the standard 80/60) most come with at install. Works fantastic for you in your shop and your number of heads. Great results for you, but when people use that on their 1 Hd machine in their shop, they get different results. Different on the 2hd's and even different on the 3hd's because it's not your machine its coming from. At least it gets them going well and they can adjust as needed (if they ever do).  Most don't.
Title: Re: Buying I Image STE on secondary market
Post by: blue moon on April 14, 2018, 10:47:58 PM
Quote
I will say anyone that can hold a 1-2% linearized dot is on a different level. I want to think we are good here with what we do and holding a true linearized 5% is something we strive for. 1-2% we will never get from what I’ve tested. Now that I’m doing some consulting I’ve been measuring more outputting devices and I’m seeing every dts or film printer out putting with huge gains. I went back and looked and at 50% the average dot is actually 69% and 10% is 18%. It’s a shame the industry can’t wrap their heads around linearized output as that would be an initial step to standardizing which imo this industry lacks.


To use the words of one of our past Presidents, "That depends on what your definition of IS is".

It's totally possible to hold 1% dot on press.  The question is, is that from a standard mesh and a standard LPI as we know it, or is that from a lower lpi and a high mesh?  Think 45lpi on a 350 mesh. Then yes, you can hold 1% dots. It has to fit.

You are doing very good at holding 5% dots in a linearized output on typical mesh and typical halftone LPI. It can get better.
Pierre for example, holds a 2% on typical mesh and he is linearized. Not sure how he sets everything else up but I'm proud of that guy. ;)

As for image output devices, they do not linearize their machines because it's futile until it gets to your one shop with yours one shops variables and then you can fine tune your output to fit your needs. Different environments play a role in output. If they did it in their production facility you would still get different results in your shop.

Also know, one setting doesn't work on all machines. A setting can get you closer, but not dead on for your machine in your shop. For example, I've seen in some shops (your I-Image setting), or at least it was named as yours. You must have given that to a few people you know. It works well for the most part much better than the standard 80/60) most come with at install. Works fantastic for you in your shop and your number of heads. Great results for you, but when people use that on their 1 Hd machine in their shop, they get different results. Different on the 2hd's and even different on the 3hd's because it's not your machine its coming from. At least it gets them going well and they can adjust as needed (if they ever do).  Most don't.

I wish we held the 2% dot! Those days are long gone. . . We are happy with a 5% these days!

pierre