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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: cvreeland on January 08, 2015, 03:12:42 PM

Title: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on January 08, 2015, 03:12:42 PM
Howdy,
Long time no post I know, hope everyone round these parts is okay. The new year finds me at a new shop, & I'm trying to help with the  modernization process -- focusing on the screen room first.

We're already ordered the i-Image STE from M&R & it's on the way.

Art: I think I've got a grip on the workflow -- EPS files, & it rips them on the fly at the machine, so all art staff has to do is lay out files on a 23 x 31 template,  then drop then in a folder on the i-Image sever, right? If we need to do things like trap an under base, that will need to be a separate file?

Screens: Wondering what kind of real-world problems people have had that they didn't anticipate -- mesh tension -- how much does this affect ink deposit & exposure? How loose is too loose? We're running Ulano QTX on 100's & 160's & Saati Grafic PU for 195 & up. I'm working on standardizing tensions, but it's a struggle at this point to get ahold of every screen as it goes through the cycle, so some of the 110's & 160's are in the low 20's newton-wise, though I'd rather thy be over at 30 or so. Some of the 230's & 305's hover around 15 newtons.

Obstructions? How tolerant are these things as far as clearance? I know the image frame that holds the screen in place pushes the mesh up towards the print head away from the frame a little, but at what point does the solve. resist tape get in the way if it's peeling up? Do I really need to go back through all the older screens & put new white tape on the rollers if it's coming loose at all?

How bad are head crashes when/if they do happen & how frequent are they?

Exposure - I imaging that different exposure settings mainly control the speed at which the screen moves under the light? Is setting the thing up for 2 types of emulsion (both pure photopolymer) across 6 different meshes easy?

We're pretty excited to be moving on from film, though some of the folks who have been here a long time are apprehensive about the change, so the more info I can feed them the better. (we're supplementing our Nu-Arc with this, of course, so we have film & vacuum table as a fall-back while we learn)

Thanks!

Hope everyone here had a great Christmas and is having a happy new year, so far!
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: ericheartsu on January 08, 2015, 03:21:32 PM
We have the STEII, and the biggest issue for us, is that the tape on the roller frames constantly peeling up and getting in the way. There is an issue in the programming, when the pusher frame is coming back out, that it reads the height sensor, and you have to restart the printer. It's more of an annoyance, but it does happen frequently.

Other issues we've had is with the ink that goes through the printer. We just switched to the dye based ink, instead of the k ink that was originally sold with it. The dye works much better, but with that being said, all of a sudden we got air in our lines last night, and have been struggling with that all morning.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Alex M on January 08, 2015, 03:41:32 PM
Feel free to drop me a line so we can go over your questions. You have a pretty solid grip on what is going to happen with the unit, but i am glad to help button the last remaining issues up.
We have 24hr service on our digital equipment the same as screen print, the number is 847-410-3500.
Eric,
I will have our service team give you a call if you haven't already been in contact with them.
Thanks,
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: ericheartsu on January 08, 2015, 03:48:06 PM
Feel free to drop me a line so we can go over your questions. You have a pretty solid grip on what is going to happen with the unit, but i am glad to help button the last remaining issues up.
We have 24hr service on our digital equipment the same as screen print, the number is 847-410-3500.
Eric,
I will have our service team give you a call if you haven't already been in contact with them.
Thanks,

Hi Alex,
we've been in touch with them

thanks!
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: shurloc on January 08, 2015, 03:55:29 PM
Those tensions are scary! I'd love to get you some info on the EZ frame and our panels for roller frames if you think your shop would be wanting to make the move to better tensions. We have both options available and can figure out a good way to get your shop started for less than you think!

Shoot me and email or give me a call - Ron

360-805-4140 - ron@shurloc.com
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on January 08, 2015, 05:48:16 PM
We've got so much mesh here there's no way you're talking my boss into the prefab panels for at least the next year... I can't shock the production dept. with a bunch of crazy-tight screens, or they'll all just get torn, anyway. Incremental change there will do the trick. Just trying to get them all stabilized & into the same ballpark for now. We'll ratchet 'em up as the spring progresses. My first purchase was a roller-master, & that was a big deal for this screen dept.

That's kinda what I was afraid of on the tape & clearance -- been putting in time trying to clean that up but will have to redouble efforts.

Alex, I'm working with Bill Warrn here in Texas, & just had a good phone call with him about the basics of the install, training, etc. The whole process sounds relatively smooth to me. We take delivery on about the 18th & should have it online first week of Feb.

Another question: How easy/fast is it changing from a 23 x 31 pusher frame to a 20 x 24 pusher frame for manual screens? I hadn't even given manual size screens a second thought until just now. (It keeps slipping my mind -- I just spent 7 years at a shop that didn't even have a manual...) Obviously, you'd want to gang up your manual jobs for the day so you'd have to maybe change it once per shift, I'd guess uness it's really fast.

Everyone's loving this with the tri-loc, right? The art staff has been trapping everything because the printers are still hand-registering jobs. We've got 3 10-color Sportsmen, all pretty new -- 2012-14. Level pallets, frame holders, etc. They're in good shape. Hoping reg is more or less dead-on with the tri-loc so we can stop trapping everything. Used the tri-loc with carrier sheets & film at my last job & was pretty happy with it there. I used to butt reg everything & count on the 1/2 point spread on the press to do the trick, except for underbases. -- everyone says this is the thing that kicks it up a notch, though. True out there in the real world?

Thanks!
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: DannyGruninger on January 08, 2015, 06:00:32 PM
Let's just say this.... If someone came to my shop and tried to take my ste I would kill them. Don't have time to write a novel but everyone knows how I feel about our cts but I will say for my shop it's the best thing I've ever done head and shoulders above everything else. Between my old cts and my new ste I've been converted for 3 years now and if I had to go back to films I'd be getting out of the industry no questions asked. The day I go back to printing films is the day I hang up screen printing....
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: jvanick on January 08, 2015, 06:57:51 PM
we started with our i-Image on static frames and have had to do registration on almost every job after doing the initial tri-lock... the static frames were all over the place... found out the company that stretches our S mesh statics stretches them to 20N, after a few cycles, they're sitting around 15-16N.  Our 200's were all over the place.

when we had consistent (but lower) tension, registration was better, but still not great.

went to M3s, high tension (on the S-mesh, we're around 30-35N depending on thread count), registration is SO much easier now... sometimes just a tweak or 2 on the underbase, and rock-n-roll.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Doug S on January 08, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
we started with our i-Image ST on static frames and have had to do registration on almost every job after doing the initial tri-lock... the static frames were all over the place... found out the company that stretches our S mesh statics stretches them to 20N, after a few cycles, they're sitting around 15-16N.  Our 200's were all over the place.

when we had consistent (but lower) tension, registration was better, but still not great.

went to M3s, high tension (on the S-mesh, we're around 30-35N depending on thread count), registration is SO much easier now... sometimes just a tweak or 2 on the underbase, and rock-n-roll.

You upgraded to the ST instead of the the epson based?  Just curious? 
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: jvanick on January 08, 2015, 07:28:17 PM
sorry.. we still have the epson... momentary slip of mind/keyboard here .. (fixed in the original post to not confuse others ;) )
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Doug S on January 08, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
sorry.. we still have the epson... momentary slip of mind/keyboard here .. (fixed in the original post to not confuse others ;) )

I was just worried that I'd be one of the few left with the epson based one. 

I agree with you.  When I use the M3's I'm rarely off.  With the ez frames it usually takes an adjustment here and there but I think it's more to do with the frame holder hitting the frame a little higher on the frame than the triloc.

Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Alex M on January 08, 2015, 09:12:04 PM
I have a video of me switching pushers frames  from 23x31 to 26x36 in 11 seconds.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: ericheartsu on January 08, 2015, 09:48:15 PM
sorry.. we still have the epson... momentary slip of mind/keyboard here .. (fixed in the original post to not confuse others ;) )

I was just worried that I'd be one of the few left with the epson based one. 

I agree with you.  When I use the M3's I'm rarely off.  With the ez frames it usually takes an adjustment here and there but I think it's more to do with the frame holder hitting the frame a little higher on the frame than the triloc.

we are getting better with M3s, but it still takes time
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: alan802 on January 09, 2015, 09:11:29 AM
went to M3s, high tension (on the S-mesh, we're around 30-35N depending on thread count), registration is SO much easier now... sometimes just a tweak or 2 on the underbase, and rock-n-roll.

You don't say?  But so many people don't have time for all that.

Where you at now Chris?  Austin Screen Printing?
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on January 09, 2015, 01:32:33 PM
Yep, at ASP. They've been here 40 years! Ed finally began to modernize in earnest a couple years ago & ditched the Arrow Multiprinters. I don't like the Sportsman as well as I did the early 2000-era Challenger II's but they're fine presses.  There's not room for Challengers over here -- this place is built out! Trying to shoehorn in the DTS machine is proving to be a challenge.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on January 16, 2015, 10:43:17 AM
The STE is here! Got it off the truck last night & started unpacking it this AM. This thing is pretty solidly built. We won't have it installed until Wednesday or Thursday of next week, but I'm utterly blown away at the comparison of the LED array to our jiant vacuum frame & nu-arc exposure unit. I'm really psyched to get this thing going!
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: dirkdiggler on January 16, 2015, 12:50:56 PM
Now you can realize  what it means when people say, "I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO FILM"
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: jvanick on January 16, 2015, 12:53:57 PM
a thought:

if you can afford a $450 or so toy, go on ebay and pick yourself up a Densitometer...

have your tech help you dial in your halftones with the curve settings.

while not strictly necessary, you'll even get better prints and gradients than you ever thought possible.

and as Jay says: "I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO FILM"
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: ericheartsu on January 16, 2015, 01:19:20 PM
what does the densiometer do?
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: jvanick on January 16, 2015, 01:39:29 PM
lets you read your dot gain.. so a 50% halftone on your computer screen is a 50% halftone on a printed shirt.

on my I-Image slant model, I'm getting nearly 30% gain from 10% to 70% above 70% or so all the halftones are filled in... been working on adjusting the curve so it's nearly a perfect gradient from 3% up to 97%
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Gilligan on January 16, 2015, 02:15:10 PM
lets you read your dot gain.. so a 50% halftone on your computer screen is a 50% halftone on a printed shirt.

on my I-Image slant model, I'm getting nearly 30% gain from 10% to 70% above 70% or so all the halftones are filled in... been working on adjusting the curve so it's nearly a perfect gradient from 3% up to 97%

WOW, 30% gain?!!  That's HUGE... where is this coming from?
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Orion on January 16, 2015, 02:27:19 PM
...actually up to 38% percent dot gain for garment printing is not uncommon and should be compensated for in the pre-press process.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: mk162 on January 16, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
orion beat me to that...with the i-image we were around 40-45%...we had to cut back on the amount of ink.

we are also testing some new emulsion to see if it stops the spread of ink on the screen as much.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Gilligan on January 16, 2015, 02:39:56 PM
I was misreading... I thought he was getting that kind of gain on the screen itself.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: bimmridder on January 16, 2015, 02:40:32 PM
And it's not just ink spread on the screen. More from pressures and substrates on press. Throw in inks, squeegee durometer, angle, speed, and on and on. And for what it's worth, you get the same kind of gain with wax. Our gain on that machine was north of 25%.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Doug S on January 16, 2015, 02:47:51 PM
orion beat me to that...with the i-image we were around 40-45%...we had to cut back on the amount of ink.

we are also testing some new emulsion to see if it stops the spread of ink on the screen as much.

I'm also going to test a different emulsion.  With the CCI WR14, I'm getting solid opaque in some areas and lighter in others on the same screen with the slant i image.  So far, I'm only able to print unidirectional and 1440 x 1440.  It's almost like the ink is watered down which I know it's not the case. 
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Orion on January 16, 2015, 03:01:18 PM
And it's not just ink spread on the screen. More from pressures and substrates on press. Throw in inks, squeegee durometer, angle, speed, and on and on. And for what it's worth, you get the same kind of gain with wax. Our gain on that machine was north of 25%.

I would wonder if that spread is due to the velocity of the wax droplet when it arrives at the stencil or is it wicking. As for the wicking, my understanding was that the wax instantaneously dries as it hits the stencil.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: bimmridder on January 16, 2015, 03:05:25 PM
On our wax machine, the wax does indeed dry immediately. It takes six passes of the print head to lay down the correct amount. The screen mounts vertically in the machine.. There are pluses and minuses to both types, in my opinion.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on March 14, 2015, 07:39:26 PM
Zombie thread revival!

So we've had the thing up and running since about the 20th of January. We've imaged a bit over 2700 screens in that span of time, and we're settling in to it. It's certainly changed our workflow and disrupted the art dept's ability to do a final quality check of the film, but they're learning to make cleaner files in the first place, which is good.

We have a lot of re-orders in the pipeline, so they've been overburdened with their regular workload & trying to retreive old files & get them formatted correctly for the i-Image. We've kept our Nu-arc in place to handle the overflow, but we'll catch up some day.

Overall very happy with the purchase, though there are things I would change about the software, given my druthers.

I've written a fuller review of the unit here: http://art-wear.org/blog/?p=705 (http://art-wear.org/blog/?p=705)

Thanks for all the advice & support in this thread - I think we made the right decision to go DTS, & I'm really glad we went with the M&R. The LED exposure unit is frigging awesome.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: sqslabs on March 14, 2015, 08:20:31 PM
I think we made the right decision to go DTS, & I'm really glad we went with the M&R. The LED exposure unit is frigging awesome.

Great review!
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: Dottonedan on March 15, 2015, 07:58:10 PM
Chris,


That is an excellent write up. Very detailed. You should do some articles. ;)


I'll elaborate on a few things in there.


1, Software:
While its not really contrary or crucial one way or the other, The three programs do not need to be used simultaneously or all three don't need to be running at the same time. For example you can rip files from Color Print, and send them to the queue and never have either of the other two programs open at all. The ripped files just sit there in the Queue and Archive till called up. This is good for selecting say 20 art jobs completed by art department throughout the day, and they then load them all at once (shift key and select) drag and drop or right click to preferred folder setup) in Color Print. They rip while your art department goes home for the night. That's just an example, not that this would be the suggested method, but many shops do this.

The only one that truly must be open, is the Printer Control when you want to print to the machine or have the machine running and do nozzle checks or whatnot and Print Production of course, must be open if you want to print just one color to the printer.

Another example as long as you have already ripped your files, and the .prt is sitting in either the archive or the Queue, you only need to have Printer Control open in order to operate or print to screens. When would you need to only have this one program open? Well, that's in a wild case of "if lightning struck your RIP PC computer" or your hard drive when down, and you cannot run Color Print nor Print Production, you can still load jobs manually thru Printer control that were held in the Queue that day, or pull jobs from the archive for re-orders....The screen under your keyboard is setup just like in Printer Control program (on the right) and you operate the printer (send jobs) just like you would in Printer Control. You do not need or it's not a MUST to have the other programs running at the same time.


Print Production is more feasible to use (and is why we have it) versus printing straight from Printer Control when printing screens, for a couple reasons.

A,  Can choose (and should) choose to print one color sep at a time (rather than the entire job) at one time. If you select the entire folder (as you have to do in printer control), and have a hiccup on screen #2, out of an 8 color job, the 6 remaining colors must also be cancelled out (if you were printing the entire folder). They are all loaded in as a group. Canceling out, means that it must go thru it's entire process of sending the table in and back out (per color) before it has finished it's canceling process. So, it's more efficient to just be able to print one color at a time via Print Production. Print Production enables you to do this while Printer Control only loads a job folder with all colors loading at once.

B, Print Production enables you to (view the color name and a preview of the art).

C, Print Production enables you to preview or blow up the image preview (at many sizes) to see the actual halftone dots. This is not intended to view dot quality, as much as it is to view whether you have dots in unwanted places. This is good for photoshop files as with any separation method in photoshop (depending on your monitor preview settings, %'s can be hidden or not set to view 1-5% ranges very easily in grayscale or spot color channels.  It's possible to have 1-3% dots outside the art that you didn't see in Photoshop. Who wants 3% dots filling your document size all over your shirt?


FILE TYPES.Color Print is able to receive and RIP...Single color .ai, .cdr, .eps .jpg, .tif, .psd, pdf, .ps and others all as one color files and will RIP them to .PRT with no issues.In order to print (one file) with all colors in it, the files must be saved as .ai, .cdr, .eps, .pdf, .ps or DCS2.The DCS2 format enables you to load (one file) with multi color spot channels originating from photoshop) You can either PLACE inside a vector program and save as eps from there, for the below reason...or, saved as DCS2 and load directly into Color Print after saving fro Photoshop as DCS2.  For size and positioning purposes, I highly suggest PLACING into AI and a template with the below options.

The kicker of either Corel or Illustrator, is that the benefit of using .eps is simply due to the fact that if you want the art to fall in the proper location, you must use the ART BOARD that matches up to your template or max print area.This is the reason for .eps. The EPS format open's the window for you to use the option to USE ART BOARD and RANGE 1.  (Range 1) is referring to the number of art boards and what art board you want to print. Why are there more than one art board option?  Because some shops will use multiple art boards for one job. They will have one Corel file or one Illy file, yet have 3-4 art boards inside. One might be the front print. the 2nd might be the left sleeve, the 3rd the right sleeve an the 4th, the back print. Follow?  So, most people do only use one art board therefore, we tell them to use RANGE 1.

What happens if you do not tell it range one and you select ALL? If you only have one page or one art board, but don't choose RANGE 1, and don't direct it to what one to use), by selecting all, it will send two different files to the Color Print. One for your art board size and one for your Document size.  Follow? This can be a problem because your screen room person will see two files and may just think it's a duplicate. They may delete one, and print the one with the wrong positioning.

Now, you can load a multi color DCS2 file into Color Print directly without saving it into Illly or Corel using the art board and template, but based on the dimensions of the file, it may not land in the proper location that you want. (Think left chest prints), Color Print, without using a template and locked in using eps and USE ART BOARD...RANGE 1, selected, then by default, Color Print positions all files to TOP CENTER. It doesn't know where you want that art to go, so it goes to a standard location within it's max imprint are. This is TOP CENTER. This, again, THIS, is why you want to send your files via EPS using USE ART BOARD and with the RANGE 1 selected, using a template setup to position your art in the right spot. Some shops want the art moved down 1.5" some 2" and some not at all, depending on the location you want the art to land on the screen (for your particular press). Some want the left chest to land 4" from center, some want something like 3.75 or 4.25Is the option to use art board and range one available in any other format?  No, Not that I've found yet. Just EPS. When you have ai art and then do a SAVE AS, look at the bottom of the window below the list of options to choose from. When it's an ai or something else, the option for (USE ART BOARD and RANGE, is grayed out. As soon as you switch to eps, that option is available.  Corel has this eps (USE ARTBOARD) feature also, but it's in the PREFERENCES section. You just check off (use art board).This should be copied, printed out. and given to any art department that uses our devices. THIS, eps, use art board, range 1,  is not an M&R software thing. It's a vector art positioning method to any device and any vector program. We use it, because it fits perfect for what we are doing. Sending smaller dimension files to a printer that is capable of printing much larger than your standard print area requires us (you) to tell it where to place the art.


PREVIEW CHECK POINT
A, PRINT PRODUCTION is considered a basic preview checkpoint. Not intended to preview interaction with your vector transparency, over prints/overlaps or traps. You can see the colors names of each sep, you can preview the one color grayscale or flat spot color image preview in halftone and then print the color needed.

B, MAC USERS, there is a very good PREVIEW program that displays overprints/traps etc. I just saw it the other day at another MAC shop. We talked about it, but I didn't confirm the name of the small program, but I think it was literally called PRODUCTION PREVIEW or something similar. I will check on that but other MAC users may want to chime in on that. PC users may have something similar, but I am not aware of one. The below, can apply to PC users but I'm not sure if Corel has a similar feature.

C, ILLUSTRATOR has a feature called SEPARATION PREVIEW.  This is good for everyone printing any files out of Illustrator to any imaging device.  You can see what is going to print correctly and what is not before sending it to your device.Go to WINDOW at the top menu bar, then scroll down to SEPARATION PREVIEW. The separation Preview window pops up. All of your spot colors in the art, will be listed in this window. check the box with OVERPRINT PREVIEW at top left.  Adjust your art as needed to get what you're looking for before sending to your imaging device.

I know it was long, but I got one more note.

The disconnect between Hot folders not loading a file over, or not seeing each other at times, or an entire drive not showing up at one time, but then it appears, is more often then not, network related. Some shops that were accustom to smaller sized networks, may need to upgrade to something a tad more reliable or with less breaks in transferring the information as well as possibly an additional port (for the lack of a better word). I don't know what they call them, but you may have had 6 or 8 ports transferring 100mb each. From what I was recently told by an IT guy, lets say (and I'm paraphrasing loosely here), there are typically 100mb per second and there are 1 gb per second transfer rates or something like that. (one of the computer guys here can clear that up).
One of these (that the RIP network its on), can also be bad or more full possibly. Not sure.

That network part is not my forte, and we are not required to set up networks, but I've found most times the loss of files in between the hot folders is a need for a faster or a more reliable network system or a break in the connection at some point. Could even be random.
Title: Re: i-Image STE on the way. Thoughts, advice, recommendations?
Post by: cvreeland on March 16, 2015, 03:13:56 PM
I will chalk up my rudimentary understanding on a lot of the stuff you just elaborated on to M&R really not spending quite enough time training us after the install.

My note about needing all 3 programs open at once is specific to the workflow we need to run -- our screen guys have been here for years, and they just want to be handed seps from which to make screens. Involving them in the rip portion of the process is a bad idea, and not going to happen, so we need it automated across ColorPRINT to Print Production.

I appreciate the detailed response very much!