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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: DannyGruninger on June 09, 2017, 10:27:45 AM
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After watching trash can after trash can after trash can go out my shop daily with screen tape in it I've finally had enough. I've made the switch and have sold all the rollers we have here as I'm planning to switch to perm blockout static frames. I know we have some guys on the forum running this type of setup so I'd love to hear some feedback. Zane from OSI gave me some great info already, but would like to hear if anyone else has experience. We run auto reclaim machine and my main concern is the ability of the perm blockout holding up over time. I really dont want to invest in 500+ screens right now only to see the blockout fail down the road.
If anyone is using tapeless screens I would love to hear your experience, whos your using, what type of reclaim, etc.
any help is appreciated!
Danny
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We use the tapeless screens from spot color. They use the red perm blockout, not sure on the brand. I have some older screens and we reclaim manually and they hold up great. Tension has held really well also. There can be some pinholes in the blockout, but if you use a scoop coater that overlaps the blockout, that shouldn't really be an issue.
I still use tape on the frame because our press likes to fling ink a bit so the tape helps keep things off the frames and make's cleanup a little easier for us still. Eventually I'd like to get away from using tape as well. I still gang images depending on the size of the design so taping them off is necessary sometimes.
Overall, they are the best statics i've used and the frames hold up much better with the blockout.
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Won't work for most of you with dip tanks, but I keep the tape on for many jobs before removal and replacement.
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Also Danny if you want to toss the tape you can always buy some Aqua Block, that stuff works great, it holds up to water base inks and discharge inks and is a muthaF to remove. so I'm you don't want to remove it so using it around the edges of your screens will replace tape.
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We have been tapeless for a year on our Shurloc frames and have the process down. I cant tell you how cool it is not dumping hundreds of rolls of tape into the dumpster and how much time and money it saves. I will post some pics of how we do ours next week.
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Also interested.
We have no-tape 16 statics coming our way next week to try for the first time (Intech). We pay full price for 3" PMI quick-rip tape and have for years. It's amazingly pricey (but still worth to us VS tape that is ANY LESS easy to use). Works out to roughly $0.25 per screen. At $5 for the blockout, we're looking at a 20 cycle cost breakeven (assuming ZERO tape usage in the meantime, not likely).
We do a manual reclaim.
My main question/concern (besides longevity) is emulsion build up where it meets the blockout. Does it build up? Does it make the scoop coater stagger at all? Did you need to buy a wider coater if you're only doing a single pass of emulsion?
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We stretch our own screens, when we glue them to the frame we put tape about 3/4" from them edge of the frame and glue up to the tape.
This gives a permanently blocked out area of 3/4". Th glue works well as a permanent block out.
If you buy pre stretched frames you could ask the people you buy them from to do what we do.
We still put tape on the inside of the screen, the length only when printing. This makes cleaning much easier. It hard to clean in the corners.
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Also interested.
We have no-tape 16 statics coming our way next week to try for the first time (Intech). We pay full price for 3" PMI quick-rip tape and have for years. It's amazingly pricey (but still worth to us VS tape that is ANY LESS easy to use). Works out to roughly $0.25 per screen. At $5 for the blockout, we're looking at a 20 cycle cost breakeven (assuming ZERO tape usage in the meantime, not likely).
We do a manual reclaim.
My main question/concern (besides longevity) is emulsion build up where it meets the blockout. Does it build up? Does it make the scoop coater stagger at all? Did you need to buy a wider coater if you're only doing a single pass of emulsion?
that was one of our issues with it. I'm sure it's better now when applied by the professionals like Spot Color. The "scoop coat stutter" and water splash back in reclaim were the biggest issues, so we stopped using it. We haven't used tape in years...and rarely blockout. we use a wider scoop coater and S mesh statics, d'hell with tape. (and rollers too)
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Here is what ours look like - mark mesh count before applying blockout
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are you all just blocking out the file notes? that's the only thing we still tape up.
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All our 25x36 frames are GSF's Elite frames with murakami s mesh. Fantastic so far. The only thing I'm waiting for is to upgrade our small auto to a 25x36 format and we're going to go that direction.
We are not automated on reclaim, dip tank here. No issues thus far but this format does not get the heavy use that 23x31 does in our shop.
I share your hatred for the tape (and not mention labor) waste. Been wanting to make the move for years, following this!
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We use tape less screens from Nortec. I think I posted a bad experience, but Nazdar cleaned it up made it right. Make sure you specify high tension, and check them over when they come in. Some guys get sloppy applying the caulking and its a nightmare to try to scrape ink out of the screens. Send them back.
We love them. 1.5" on either side, 2" on top and bottom. The Uni-Kote barely covers it on all four sides.
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We tried and didn't like it, if you are auto reclaim it may be awesome, but if you shoot it with a pressure washer....get ready for a huge mess when you hit the squeegee side! Our experience anyway.
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I tried a few of the perma-tape screens and just didnt care for it in the long run. Emulsion is much harder to reclaim off the surface of it. If you dont get all the emulsion off, it can build up in spots and make coating a stuttery, sketchy affair. That said, one thing i did like about it was how it added reinforecement and protection in the most vulnerable areas of the mesh, especially so on fragile S-mesh frames. I will also say that I tried a few from different suppliers, and SpotColor Supply produced the best ones, by far.
We use a 19" coater used to coat a 23x31 this leaves a coating gap of less than an inch on each side of the frame. I recommend the Monster Max coater, which has thin, low proflle plates for end caps, allowing you to get close while coating without hitting the side of the frame.
Yknow that emulsion "bead" that runs lengthwise on each side of the frame after coating? What we do, as we are coating, is take a small cut piece of squeegee rubber (1.5-2 inches wide), and "scrape" that emulsion bead in a diagonal fashion to spread it across the uncoated gap at the side of the screen. One scrape across both sides on the inside of the frame, and the same on the outside of the frame. We then scrape the emulsion off the rubber back into the coater.
Yes it takes a bit more time coating, but no more so that an additional step of blocking out and/or taping screens. Plus, no more tape or blockout to buy! We have also noticed a nearly 20% increase in the number of of screens you can coat per gallon of emulsion, those beads apparently consume more emulsion than you would imagine. Also, the screens are much easier to reclaim without those heavy beads in place.
With no tape and blockout to deal with, I now do color changes in my washout sink. Scrub with bean-e-doo (I find it rinses the cleanest), rinse with water, a quick dry, and back on the press.
I will try to get a video together next time I coat screens.
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With no tape and blockout to deal with, I now do color changes in my washout sink. Scrub with bean-e-doo (I find it rinses the cleanest), rinse with water, a quick dry, and back on the press.
nice! color changes suck on an auto when you are used to doing it on a manual press.
Yknow that emulsion "bead" that runs lengthwise on each side of the frame after coating? What we do, as we are coating, is take a small cut piece of squeegee rubber (1.5-2 inches wide), and "scrape" that emulsion bead in a diagonal fashion to spread it across the uncoated gap at the side of the screen. One scrape across both sides on the inside of the frame, and the same on the outside of the frame. We then scrape the emulsion off the rubber back into the coater.
we clean up the beads (bent clean up card) but we NEVER add it back to the coater. it always has picked up some crud and will contaminate our coater. extra waste, but worth the lack of problems downstream for us.
using the bead to cover any gaps might be something to try.
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If I were going tapeless the only way I would do it is the EZ frames. I bought a bunch of statics the last few months to fill the void in screens that I couldn't stretch and I've always had some statics in here in some capacity or another. I won't get into the argument of rollers versus static because I've used them fairly regularly side by side for about 10 years and I know the benefits and reasons for using each. And nothing I say will do much to persuade anyone who is doing their own thing. The only way they're going to know the difference is to use them side by side and compare them with a decent degree of scrutiny, or high standards. It's up to the individual on whether or not you will live with each one's pros and cons. Each shop can do what they want and that's that.
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If I were going tapeless the only way I would do it is the EZ frames. I bought a bunch of statics the last few months to fill the void in screens that I couldn't stretch and I've always had some statics in here in some capacity or another. I won't get into the argument of rollers versus static because I've used them fairly regularly side by side for about 10 years and I know the benefits and reasons for using each. And nothing I say will do much to persuade anyone who is doing their own thing. The only way they're going to know the difference is to use them side by side and compare them with a decent degree of scrutiny, or high standards. It's up to the individual on whether or not you will live with each one's pros and cons. Each shop can do what they want and that's that.
Tape-less:roller - most difficult, rare would be the shop that has needs and processes that put that to great use
Tape-less:EZ/stretch your own statics - I assume that would that require applying your own blockout?
Tape-less:static - should come correct for a reasonable price from your maker
am i missing anything obvious?
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We have actually taken a bead of the adhesive and ran it on the inside of the frame instead of the caulk. It leaves a much smaller bead if any at all and helps adhere the mesh to the frame. We have not had any problems doing that so far but we just started trying that a few weeks ago.
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Not to drag up this oldie but goody again here, but we've started running our M3 Endurance Panels and would love some feed back on them if anyone is interested. We only have 23x31 M3 available at this time, but MZX will be one of the next ones up. If anyone is interested in getting a sample panel to try these out, please shoot me an email - ron@shurloc.com and I'll get some headed to you as quick as we can.
Thanks!
Ron
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Tapeless rollers are achievable, but you just need to go to 25x36" for regular sized prints. Get a wide scoop coater, put the image on in the right spot and there is never any ink getting on shirts here.
With a 16" squeegee and plastisol, it is easy to achieve tapeless rollers.
Anything larger than about 14x18" would need to be taped.
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Tapeless rollers are achievable, but you just need to go to 25x36" for regular sized prints. Get a wide scoop coater, put the image on in the right spot and there is never any ink getting on shirts here.
With a 16" squeegee and plastisol, it is easy to achieve tapeless rollers.
Anything larger than about 14x18" would need to be taped.
We are printing more h2o ink then plastisol these days so for us due to ink properties not possible. I wish there was a tape less roller option out there. Newman told me at iss they are working on some options so hopefully that’s the case. S mesh on new mzx rollers is the best combo out there imo.
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We are printing more h2o ink then plastisol these days so for us due to ink properties not possible. I wish there was a tape less roller option out there. Newman told me at iss they are working on some options so hopefully that’s the case. S mesh on new mzx rollers is the best combo out there imo.
Why the MZX and not rollers on all sides?
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We are printing more h2o ink then plastisol these days so for us due to ink properties not possible. I wish there was a tape less roller option out there. Newman told me at iss they are working on some options so hopefully that’s the case. S mesh on new mzx rollers is the best combo out there imo.
Why the MZX and not rollers on all sides?
We use 4 Roller MZX frames. They are a little lighter than the M3's and less expensive. Much higher than 30N and the frame will start to bow due to the smaller tube diameter. But with S thread it doesnt matter since they don't get that high.
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I agree danny, with a short bodied plastisol, you dont have issues with ink moving around.
Waterbased, or thinner inks would not go over well haha
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We are printing more h2o ink then plastisol these days so for us due to ink properties not possible. I wish there was a tape less roller option out there. Newman told me at iss they are working on some options so hopefully that’s the case. S mesh on new mzx rollers is the best combo out there imo.
Why the MZX and not rollers on all sides?
We use 4 Roller MZX frames. They are a little lighter than the M3's and less expensive. Much higher than 30N and the frame will start to bow due to the smaller tube diameter. But with S thread it doesnt matter since they don't get that high.
Ahhhhhh *light bulb moment* No Square backs.
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I emailed right away on this but agree that it's doubtful that tapeless rollers can be achieved with wb.
If someone came up with a way to do it I'd be first in line to try it but over 10yrs or pondering how to do it and I still can't say if it's even possible. Especially so given the way we print wb/dc/hsa here- it's all max speed double stroking with a large amount of ink in the screen. If there were a weak point in the barrier the ink would get to it. For a discharge happy shop like ours that's a lot of shirts in the tester bin potentially by the time someone catches the first DC leak at the back of the dryer.
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I emailed right away on this but agree that it's doubtful that tapeless rollers can be achieved with wb.
If someone came up with a way to do it I'd be first in line to try it but over 10yrs or pondering how to do it and I still can't say if it's even possible. Especially so given the way we print wb/dc/hsa here- it's all max speed double stroking with a large amount of ink in the screen. If there were a weak point in the barrier the ink would get to it. For a discharge happy shop like ours that's a lot of shirts in the tester bin potentially by the time someone catches the first DC leak at the back of the dryer.
Same story here.... We are doing more and more wb, d charge, hsa...... We have a 6 month plan here right now to phase out all plastisol inks as its so difficult trying to run both types under the same roof.
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Not only is this a HUGE issue for us, (one of the main reasons why we switched) but our rollers and the I-Image, did not see eye to eye.
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Eric,
Just curious as to why your rollers and I image don't jive together? We used to have a little problem with that until we started ordering our panels with the corners cut.
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Eric,
Just curious as to why your rollers and I image don't jive together? We used to have a little problem with that until we started ordering our panels with the corners cut.
having to tape up the corners for WB/DC was a huge time suck, and issue.
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Going tapeless was one of the better things our shop has done the last few years.
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No response on the new panels from shurloc. Until we do a screen size change shopwide we're still chugging along with taping rollers.
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Going tapeless was one of the better things our shop has done the last few years.
Can you elaborate how you achieved it? IE what size frames, etc.?
We're 1/4 tapeless on plastisol only. IE we don't tape the bottom roller haha.
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we have gone tapeless, but we are a static only shop. We just coat once with 24'" scoop then do a coat on both sides with a smaller scoop to get a nice coat. Then just scrape off excess with clean up card. Takes little longer but so worth it.
using blockout tape/glues seems way too messy with ink in corners and water hitting back at you when reclaiming.
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Tapeless rollers are achievable, but you just need to go to 25x36" for regular sized prints. Get a wide scoop coater, put the image on in the right spot and there is never any ink getting on shirts here.
With a 16" squeegee and plastisol, it is easy to achieve tapeless rollers.
Anything larger than about 14x18" would need to be taped.
If I could go back I'd go with larger screens just to go tapeless, but on our current 23 x 31's we'd end up with ink on the inside of the frames all the time even if we had permanent block-out. I could change to larger screens, but we'd need new storage and drying racks too, and that would really start to add up price wise.
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I'm still in the habit of using a blockout on all my screens. A water based filler for plastisol and solvent inks, and on the odd times I use waterbase I use some of my solvent ink as a filler. And the suppliers here still finish with a silicone bead from mesh to frame with static ali frames.
Old habit I know and probably not functional for the larger places running 50-100 screens a day. Still, no tape though..
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Hey everyone, sorry about the delay on getting out the M3's... Just about everyone has asked for the S-Thread panels and those aren't quite through the testing process yet. I have standard T-Threads (110/80, 160/64, 225/48 and 300/34, plus quite a few in between) ready to ship, but not everything yet. I'll send out emails to those that replied as soon as the S-Threads are ready to roll.
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we're going tapeless but:
1) my guys are complaining about tapeless being harder to reclaim since the ink is getting stuck on the squeegee side of the frame and no easy way to blow it out fron the shirt side.
2) we put the job and ink info on the screen, so that the ink station can easily put the ink into the screen. however that still requires taping over the job info.
any tips? our frame size is 23x31 static
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i've gone tapeless.. I just use a 22" wide scoop coater for the first coat (on print side) and then use an 18" wide to coat out side (and scoop up excess) and then coat inside. I have a cleanup card handy to scrape off excess around edges. Takes a little longer but is so worth it for tape costs and reclaiming.
We use static frames.
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we keep having issues with screen breakdown along the squeegee run, so we've had to tape the runs on the inside of the frames. Also, as we start switching to shurloc frames, we always tape up the inner corners as a saftey precaution.
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Just wanted to let you all know that we are getting really close to getting some "S" Threads ready to roll...
I have a handful of you on the list, but if you are interested in an 23x31 M3 150/48 panel, just let me know.
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Just wanted to let you all know that we are getting really close to getting some "S" Threads ready to roll...
I have a handful of you on the list, but if you are interested in an 23x31 M3 150/48 panel, just let me know.
I am
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We coat with an auto here for consistency of EOM, too wide a coater can affect EOM. We then come back with 2" mini scoop coaters to coat between the frame and wet coated emulsion. Not exactly tapeless, but blocks out enough to eliminate much of the tape. On S mesh I highly recommend rounding off squeegees and putting tape under the edge of the squeegee edge path. Landing tape also helps absorb chopper style squeegee floodbars.