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Classified Ads => Private listings => Topic started by: lancasterprinthouse on May 27, 2019, 05:19:45 PM

Title: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: lancasterprinthouse on May 27, 2019, 05:19:45 PM
Anybody looking to trade their 3140 for my Workhorse LED? Give me a shout


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Nation03 on June 07, 2019, 02:39:01 PM
Don't have anything to trade but if you end up wanting to sell the LED unit let me know the price. I'd take a drive out there to pick it up.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: CBCB on June 07, 2019, 11:54:02 PM
Curious... why?


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: lancasterprinthouse on June 08, 2019, 01:28:10 PM
Curious... why?


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We are primarily a water based shop and the LED doesn’t produce a strong enough stencil without post hardening in the sun.


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Frog on June 08, 2019, 02:28:27 PM
Curious... why?


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We are primarily a water based shop and the LED doesn’t produce a strong enough stencil without post hardening in the sun.


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This issue has been discussed here, and there have been recommendations for some emulsions that seem to work better than others with LED, though of course, also, not all LED's are created equal.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: lancasterprinthouse on June 08, 2019, 02:57:43 PM
Curious... why?


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We are primarily a water based shop and the LED doesn’t produce a strong enough stencil without post hardening in the sun.


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This issue has been discussed here, and there have been recommendations for some emulsions that seem to work better than others with LED, though of course, also, not all LED's are created equal.

Right. I would trade for a starlight but that’s not going to happen. I read all 300-some comments in the one thread about MH vs. LED. I use T9 and it has helped. Short runs I’m ok. Long runs need a lot of post hardening. Something that’s hard to do in rainy season here.


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Title: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: gotshirtz001 on June 08, 2019, 03:51:44 PM
^ Team MH here!


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Sbrem on June 12, 2019, 10:05:05 AM
We both the Saati 450w a few months ago, and it was suggested we keep the old Violux 5000S MH around for post hardening when needed. So, we expose the the Saati, then post expose with the 5000S.


Steve
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Maff on June 12, 2019, 11:00:45 AM
Oh man we have gone through a lot of adjustments to get our Discharge and waterbase screens solid with our LED.

We also have the Saati 450w (ryonet fx) and we have found the best results by Overexposing our screens by almost 2X, to a solid 9-10 on the 21 step calculator.
I have heard of other bigger shops that also overexpose there discharge screens even on a starlight for even longer.

For long runs we also add reclaimable hardener to the screen and post expose for up to 20 min just for added security.
We also add Aqua Block across the top and bottom of the screen where squeegee starts and stops.

It's a lot of extra steps, but we used to struggle to get past 100 shirts without a breakdown on a discharge screen. Now with doing all this we have done a few 500-800 piece discharge orders without a breakdown.   

I think when this unit dies I'll consider switching back to MH exposure though....
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: 3Deep on June 12, 2019, 12:30:19 PM
HXT is a good emulsion for DC/water base ink printing just add some diazo to it and expose a little longer, I've did small run's of 50 to 72 pc without using the diazo I just exposed a little lnoger.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: lancasterprinthouse on June 12, 2019, 07:14:18 PM
Oh man we have gone through a lot of adjustments to get our Discharge and waterbase screens solid with our LED.

We also have the Saati 450w (ryonet fx) and we have found the best results by Overexposing our screens by almost 2X, to a solid 9-10 on the 21 step calculator.
I have heard of other bigger shops that also overexpose there discharge screens even on a starlight for even longer.

For long runs we also add reclaimable hardener to the screen and post expose for up to 20 min just for added security.
We also add Aqua Block across the top and bottom of the screen where squeegee starts and stops.

It's a lot of extra steps, but we used to struggle to get past 100 shirts without a breakdown on a discharge screen. Now with doing all this we have done a few 500-800 piece discharge orders without a breakdown.   

I think when this unit dies I'll consider switching back to MH exposure though....

I’m there with ya. I can’t get long runs of 1,000+ out of it but it takes over exposing and then sitting in the sun for an hour or two. Not a problem most of the time but if we’re getting a job setup and find out there’s an error on the screen and it just so happens to be raining, forget about it.


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: markdhl on June 13, 2019, 05:49:54 AM
Refurbished and factory warrantied Olite olec metal halide is the best light source.  We also stock the 450 LED saati that was mentioned. Emailk or call me with questions.


This is a topic i discuss often with Richard Greaves and yes for you the MH is the best choice.

Mark Diehl
Douthitt Corporation
email mdhlexp@aol.com
phone direct 313 515 8635
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Sbrem on June 13, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
I imagine that over the next year or two that the emulsion manufacturers will be addressing that problem...

Steve
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Lizard on June 19, 2019, 10:18:36 PM
I may be interested.  Give me a call when you have time.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: ABuffington on June 20, 2019, 12:07:19 PM
Emulsion has a maximum sensitivity and needs to be in balance to other components.  We can make it resist water or solvents, and (harder)tweak it to make co solvent resistance. How you make your screens is crucial, in the end if you don't apply enough energy to the sensitizer during exposure you wind up with a partially cross linked stencil.  If there are un cross linked components, they are easily affected by water and will melt and breakdown. Quite often we fall into the trap of inspecting screens with our eyes and not a proven recipe, it looks good, has a great image, but breaks down with water base or discharge or HSA.  The recipe isn't about the image, it's about the quality of the exposure first and then the image next.  They are two very different areas of screen making.   So even with overexposure using an LED, you are applying a narrow wave length of the available UV Spectrum, whereas with MH you can get multi spectral bulbs that have more wavelengths at a much higher wattage at the source.  I can get good results with LED and post exposure with T9, but hit that same screen with an 8k Olite or a Tri Light 6k, a new bulb, proper exposure time (right up to over exposure)  and it can print long runs without hardeners and T9 will reclaim like butter.  Water base screens require an entirely different screen recipe than what you would use for plastisol.  Extra prep, longer dry times before exposure and before press set up, maximum high wattage multi spectral light, proper EOM, all help and it does require a bit more effort in screen making.  I can get great screens from LED, and the speed of image and exposure helps high volume shops, so you can make this work with LED, it just takes post exposure and the sun is the best if available.  Just realize there are stronger lamps that can make stronger screens, but either way can achieve success, the key is focus on getting maximum cross linked exposure.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: lancasterprinthouse on June 20, 2019, 01:11:40 PM
Emulsion has a maximum sensitivity and needs to be in balance to other components.  We can make it resist water or solvents, and (harder)tweak it to make co solvent resistance. How you make your screens is crucial, in the end if you don't apply enough energy to the sensitizer during exposure you wind up with a partially cross linked stencil.  If there are un cross linked components, they are easily affected by water and will melt and breakdown. Quite often we fall into the trap of inspecting screens with our eyes and not a proven recipe, it looks good, has a great image, but breaks down with water base or discharge or HSA.  The recipe isn't about the image, it's about the quality of the exposure first and then the image next.  They are two very different areas of screen making.   So even with overexposure using an LED, you are applying a narrow wave length of the available UV Spectrum, whereas with MH you can get multi spectral bulbs that have more wavelengths at a much higher wattage at the source.  I can get good results with LED and post exposure with T9, but hit that same screen with an 8k Olite or a Tri Light 6k, a new bulb, proper exposure time (right up to over exposure)  and it can print long runs without hardeners and T9 will reclaim like butter.  Water base screens require an entirely different screen recipe than what you would use for plastisol.  Extra prep, longer dry times before exposure and before press set up, maximum high wattage multi spectral light, proper EOM, all help and it does require a bit more effort in screen making.  I can get great screens from LED, and the speed of image and exposure helps high volume shops, so you can make this work with LED, it just takes post exposure and the sun is the best if available.  Just realize there are stronger lamps that can make stronger screens, but either way can achieve success, the key is focus on getting maximum cross linked exposure.

I always appreciate your responses Al and our direct conversations are why I am here. Since speaking with you I have made a few changes to get better screens and they do well without any post hardening for 200 piece jobs or less but any long run jobs require a bit of extra work and as I had mentioned earlier in this thread, in rush scenarios that really puts us in a tough spot.

Lizard, DM your number.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: ABuffington on June 21, 2019, 12:35:46 PM
Some ideas on speeding up a rush water base screen:
1. Always have a good inventory of screens that have dried for a day or more.  The storage area should be at 35% with a dehumidifier on.  This eliminates 30-40 minutes of coated emulsion dry time.
2. A hot box/room is an essential tool in making wb screens fast. The larger the heated area the faster the screen will dry.  Small areas get saturated with humidity, large areas can absorb more moisture without creating high humidity issues.  We need to drive all water out of the screen. 100 degrees with really good air movement.  I like fans up off the floor if I need to dry emulsion in there as well.  But right after development, squeegee off all excess water, blow out image with air, and put in a 100 degree hot box, or in front of a fan with a heater behind it.  20 minutes in the hot box, possibly longer with the fan.  We also used the top of our oven to bake the screen if it was raining.  Leave about 6 inches of the frame over the edge of the oven to promote air flow to avoid overheating, print side up, squeegee side down.
3. Put on LED print side up, squeegee side down.  Disable vacuum drawdown.  On a starlight just set Vacuum to zero, not sure on other LED's    Expose at 2x-3x original time.  Longer is ok, burn for as long as you can. 



Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Admiral on June 21, 2019, 02:05:53 PM
I think a lot of this can be solved with a better emulsion for water based.  We use good ol' SP-1400 for water based printing, have never had break down issues, even with a couple prints in the thousands.  We use the MS hardener after the stencil is dried.

We expose with the M&R Starlight, no glass.
Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: brandon on June 22, 2019, 12:16:25 AM
Some ideas on speeding up a rush water base screen:
1. Always have a good inventory of screens that have dried for a day or more.  The storage area should be at 35% with a dehumidifier on.  This eliminates 30-40 minutes of coated emulsion dry time.
2. A hot box/room is an essential tool in making wb screens fast. The larger the heated area the faster the screen will dry.  Small areas get saturated with humidity, large areas can absorb more moisture without creating high humidity issues.  We need to drive all water out of the screen. 100 degrees with really good air movement.  I like fans up off the floor if I need to dry emulsion in there as well.  But right after development, squeegee off all excess water, blow out image with air, and put in a 100 degree hot box, or in front of a fan with a heater behind it.  20 minutes in the hot box, possibly longer with the fan.  We also used the top of our oven to bake the screen if it was raining.  Leave about 6 inches of the frame over the edge of the oven to promote air flow to avoid overheating, print side up, squeegee side down.
3. Put on LED print side up, squeegee side down.  Disable vacuum drawdown.  On a starlight just set Vacuum to zero, not sure on other LED's    Expose at 2x-3x original time.  Longer is ok, burn for as long as you can.

Just move to New Orleans. After exposing put screen outside for 3 min squeegee side facing sun. After 3 min the force of 10 gazillion gigawatts will have Marty and the Flux Capacitor back to the 1980's and all is alright.

But seriously the one non complaint of having the Sun for your neighbor is this.
Title: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: gotshirtz001 on June 26, 2019, 09:10:07 PM
I’ve got a 3140 and an Amerigraph 150 coming in Friday. Both units are 120V 20A.

$2150 for MSP3140
$1750 for Amerigraph

Located just North of San Francisco

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190627/60cd5175cd2af134d33be2cd66af766b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190627/e781c7527bfcfac0259730a4b388d4ce.jpg)


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Title: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: gotshirtz001 on July 25, 2019, 07:08:20 PM
Still looking to trade? I just sold some equipment to a guy in Boise. Still needs an exposure... I have a 3140, he wants LED. We can 3-way.


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Title: Re: TRADE: LED for 3140
Post by: Dottonedan on July 26, 2019, 03:00:38 PM
Emulsion has a maximum sensitivity and needs to be in balance to other components.  We can make it resist water or solvents, and (harder)tweak it to make co solvent resistance. How you make your screens is crucial, in the end if you don't apply enough energy to the sensitizer during exposure you wind up with a partially cross linked stencil.  If there are un cross linked components, they are easily affected by water and will melt and breakdown. Quite often we fall into the trap of inspecting screens with our eyes and not a proven recipe, it looks good, has a great image, but breaks down with water base or discharge or HSA.  The recipe isn't about the image, it's about the quality of the exposure first and then the image next.  They are two very different areas of screen making.   So even with overexposure using an LED, you are applying a narrow wave length of the available UV Spectrum, whereas with MH you can get multi spectral bulbs that have more wavelengths at a much higher wattage at the source.  I can get good results with LED and post exposure with T9, but hit that same screen with an 8k Olite or a Tri Light 6k, a new bulb, proper exposure time (right up to over exposure)  and it can print long runs without hardeners and T9 will reclaim like butter.  Water base screens require an entirely different screen recipe than what you would use for plastisol.  Extra prep, longer dry times before exposure and before press set up, maximum high wattage multi spectral light, proper EOM, all help and it does require a bit more effort in screen making.  I can get great screens from LED, and the speed of image and exposure helps high volume shops, so you can make this work with LED, it just takes post exposure and the sun is the best if available.  Just realize there are stronger lamps that can make stronger screens, but either way can achieve success, the key is focus on getting maximum cross linked exposure.


Great post!  Well balanced with accurate information.