Buying a used Automatic Press

[244]

TAS is very solid machine. US rep is an awesome person. The main drawback is that it sets up as slowly as an M&R.

As for Gauntlets, while M&R's are built better than some presses, saying it is built like "a brick shithouse" seems a bit exaggerated. They have all mechanical registration and in a way you can say that they shake themselves to bits and definitely things wear out. To do really good work you have to level them constantly.

We had an MHM that was the first SP3000 in the United States. Until we sold it, it ran for 20 years every day and we never had to level the platens. They set up faster than any press because the platens are always level, parallel and flat, the screens are always level.  The screens are what I call locked and super locked, not unlocked and lock. This means that while registering you do not screw up what you just registered by locking the screens (which is what happens on just about any press.) Not only are the platens level, but we can change our  whole 16/18 press from adult to youth platens in under 2 minutes (not each arm, the whole press.) The MHM doesn't wear out as fast because the basic design has it register electronically and the registration blocks are more like a guarantee than what pushes it into place, unlike almost every other type of press.

Rick Roth
Mirror Image Inc
Pawtucket RI

check out new screen printer blog I'm doing with Tom Davenport of Motion Textile - www.theinkkitchen.com  twitter@TheInkKitchen

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion so I will state mine. Yes our presses are overbuilt and the standard of the industry. The majority of printers use M&R for some very good reasons. They last forever ,yield the highest output, and set up very fast. They are even built strong enough to run solid pallets at very high speeds with ease! They are so good we are the ONLY manufacturer that will offer a 100% money back guarantee in writing. But that is just my opinion. Might just be 85% of the markets opinion as well.

[pwalsh]

Was a little surprised to not see them (TAS) represented at ISS Long Beach this year.

The reason why TAS didn't exhibit at this years Long Beach ISS might have been impacted by some information that I heard this week that the owners of TAS America the California based distributor for TAS equipment, are establishing a distribution and service relationship for the Anatol equipment line.  I have a high degree of confidence that this information is accurate and we'll have to wait and see how these developments will impact distribution, service and support for TAS equipment in the US Market 

[TCT]

Was a little surprised to not see them (TAS) represented at ISS Long Beach this year.

The reason why TAS didn't exhibit at this years Long Beach ISS might have been impacted by some information that I heard this week that the owners of TAS America the California based distributor for TAS equipment, are establishing a distribution and service relationship for the Anatol equipment line.  I have a high degree of confidence that this information is accurate and we'll have to wait and see how these developments will impact distribution, service and support for TAS equipment in the US Market

Sounds like TAS America had a death wish...

My apologies to the OP for getting your thread so de railed. Originally you had mentioned you were thinking of a used auto, it kinda sounds like you have changed that, yes? Sorry if it seems like I am "prying" into your business, I am intrigued by the buying options and process in outside the states. I had the wonderful opportunity to meet some great people from Australia(I know you are in New Zealand) at ISS Long Beach. One couple ended up buying a auto, and both couples were great to talk to. Different than how we do it in the states, and I love that!

[Dochertyscott]

No worries at all in terms of the thread going off topic.
I love reading through these forums. Especially when on my post.
I'd much rather have off topic replies than refresh the browser to see none.
So I looked at what was available as second hand units through the supply reps here in New Zealand and also through the grapevine.
I missed out on a used diamondback but in my opinion was overpriced anyhow for what they are especially when use.
The Tas 9e which was the original compact machine I was stared off by a previous boss and also the Tas tech. I was told these are not the machines that Tas are proud of. So much so that I did hear that one of workers actually left the company when these were brought out as a cheaper model to compete with the diamondback.
The Tas ROC was 15 years old. Although the control panels had been upgradede and the machine was apparently in great order, the print heads were all pneumatic. As well as this the size of the machine would of had me pushing it for space. It was a 12 colour but we just don't get the demand for that amount of colours over here... I've done one 6 colour job in the 4 years in business. People are usually scared off by the setup charges. Using spot, or process, a full colour job can be done nicely as a 7 colour max in my opinion.
I talked to the distributor of the Tas machines here in nz looking for second hand in my price range and he sent me through the details for a new option being an anatol Titan 5 colour.
It looked rubbishy.
At this stage the TAS ROC was my best option for the budget.
I called Tas in Australia to ask for an honest opinion on the machine...and to poke for a demo model or direct sale... As you do.
Colin was just the man I had been looking for. He spared no time in talking me through the options. Gave honest advice. Asked me my ideal solution. Worked as close as possible to my budget, And weeks later after talking almost daily, sold me a brand new Tas CX 8/10 with full AC heads, and 2 optional flashes a set of sleeve boards chucked in for good measure. He assured me that these machines are very bit as good as the Tas machines they are known for. Uses the same components as the hawks and 2000x models and will literally last a lifetime. So much so that he would like to have the name of the machine changed to escape the compact predecessor reputation. (Which isn't that bad, just comparatively not great with the rest of Tas machines)
The team at Tas are looking after everything from shipping to customs clearance and inboard freight to my door with the tech installing on arrival.
So Tas being my final decision was based on firstly the fact that I have ran a couple at previous workshops and found them a dream.
The fact that replacement parts are very easily sourced.
Further add ons can be bought from across the ditch (Australia) with less freight cost.
Full AC heads.
The Tas reputation.
And lastly the way I was treated by the team at Tas. I can't sing Colin's praises enough.
The cost of buying used was going to be not much less that buying new. With all the dramas that could have gone with the used machine. My auto should be here in less than 2 months.
As I asked The team at Tas are going to send me photos and updates of the build of my new machine as it happens. All made in Australia.
If you guys are interested ill post the photos of the build up here to give you an insight as it happens.
 One very excited first time auto buyer.

http://www.tasinternational.com.au/screen_printing_machine.asp?MachineID={0000001F-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}

[TCT]

Sounds like a super good outcome for you! You will love the AC heads! I for sure want you to post the pics!!
Congratulations!

[Dochertyscott]

Thanks, yeah a super outcome im sure.
The next thing i need to think about is a compressor.
The machine requirements are 7.5cfm @100 psi (which i was told is a negligible amount of air and not to be oversold)
Should i go with a used rotary screw? or a new piston.
I want it to be quite enough and not be struggling.
Any advice on brands to look at, tank size and so on?
I was asked if the air supply would be constant from someone i talked to... as in would it be running at full requirements all of the time... would it?
I figure it would be to turn the carousel but then be on a break for between 5-10 secs when printing??

[TCT]

Typically the air requirements are for running the press full speed and all heads, which rarely happens. 7.5cfm is practicality nothing, but don't skimp or get a cheep compressor. If the compressor goes down you are not going to be printing.
Screw type will be quieter, but the smallest one will almost be overkill for what you need....

I can recommend a great company I have had very good luck with, but it is in the states here so that may not help you much. 

[Rick Roth]

Do not buy a piston compressor unless you have to. Buy a screw type compressor and with more capacity and a bigger tank than you need. Consider buying from the start a compressor that would handle a second machine.

The CFM requirements are for running full bore, but also figure at some point you will have air leaks. You should fix them, but you don't want to stop printing because you have them.

You also need to buy a chiller (conditioner) to take the water out of the air.

[abchung]

Firstly congrates on the purchase. Good choice, because spare parts is less than 3 hours by plane across the Tasman.

If you get a compressor, you better find a good local shop, because when I bought my compressor for my knitting machine I went for a German brand, when it broke down, it was difficult for me to get spare parts.

Congrats again. and yes we want pics.

[ZooCity]

As for Gauntlets, while M&R's are built better than some presses, saying it is built like "a brick shithouse" seems a bit exaggerated. They have all mechanical registration and in a way you can say that they shake themselves to bits and definitely things wear out. To do really good work you have to level them constantly.

Agreed all around on that. I'll take a press with an MHM type design any old day over the M&R/Anatol/RPM/Tas/etc. design model.  Honestly, the two don't even compare.  The latter category tends to need to be overbuilt in the wrong places due to a less than ideal overall design in my humble opinion.
 
Our Gauntlet is leveled every week, sometimes twice and most other users will report similar schedules. It shakes and rattles.  The masonry outhouse reference was to the overall build on these old machines.  I think the fact that the main components are overbuilt makes an old Gauntlet more useable after 20+ years as all the other parts that got rattled to death can be swapped out for not too much cost but the main components will still perform. The fact that these parts are readily available makes these old presses viable for a used purchase, the ROI can still be very good despite the setups and leveling and all the other detractors.  So I think the phrase is accurate in that sense.  We purchased our '92 for a song, dropped it into the shop with minimal disassembly and, for all it's design failures, has performed admirably.  New purchase would be a whole different set of considerations.  Gotta take it all in context.

[ZooCity]

Rick, I like the blog, btw!  Looking forward to reading through it later.

[Dochertyscott]

As for Gauntlets, while M&R's are built better than some presses, saying it is built like "a brick shithouse" seems a bit exaggerated. They have all mechanical registration and in a way you can say that they shake themselves to bits and definitely things wear out. To do really good work you have to level them constantly.

Agreed all around on that. I'll take a press with an MHM type design any old day over the M&R/Anatol/RPM/Tas/etc. design model.  Honestly, the two don't even compare.  The latter category tends to need to be overbuilt in the wrong places due to a less than ideal overall design in my humble opinion.
 
Our Gauntlet is leveled every week, sometimes twice and most other users will report similar schedules. It shakes and rattles.  The masonry outhouse reference was to the overall build on these old machines.  I think the fact that the main components are overbuilt makes an old Gauntlet more useable after 20+ years as all the other parts that got rattled to death can be swapped out for not too much cost but the main components will still perform. The fact that these parts are readily available makes these old presses viable for a used purchase, the ROI can still be very good despite the setups and leveling and all the other detractors.  So I think the phrase is accurate in that sense.  We purchased our '92 for a song, dropped it into the shop with minimal disassembly and, for all it's design failures, has performed admirably.  New purchase would be a whole different set of considerations.  Gotta take it all in context.

Really? Have u worked on or owned the stated models?
Are mhm the best built automatics?
I have never seen or even heard much about them.

[ZooCity]

Are you asking me? 

I've printed on M&R/Anatol/American.  I don't have wide experience with all the press brands listed, they are grouped together in this discussion as their registration and basic functions are identical.  MHM, and other brands such S.roque, have different concepts for reg and basic functions.   

Yes, some would argue the MHM style of press design is superior.  Other would argue the M&R/Anatol/RPM/Tas/etc. model is best. 

All the press brands listed make good to excellent presses, this is a reply to a comment on design.  Design is just one facet of a good machine but it's a critical one for sure.  Any discussion on the matter will inevitably go back to service and support.  Talking purely design, I prefer the MHM concept.  Ask me purely about service and support and I'll tell you I wish that M&R made everything I wanted.  Ask 10 other printers those two questions and you'll get 20-30 different answers.   

[Evo]

Ask me purely about service and support and I'll tell you I wish that M&R made everything I wanted.

Why not tell M&R?

[ZooCity]

Ask me purely about service and support and I'll tell you I wish that M&R made everything I wanted.

Why not tell M&R?

I have.  That's why our 20x24 Chili flash has an intensity control, I didn't want to buy another brand but needed the control that wasn't an option then.  Rich set it in motion and we've been happily quartz flashing tri-blends ever since, if there is such a thing as happily flashing that fabric.