Need help and honest opinion to setup a new discharge/water-based only workshop

[starrider]

Hi,

First of all, thanks for clicking on this thread. I'm not new to t-shirt business but totally newbie in term of setting up my own workshop. I want to set up the shop that only print dischage/water-based inks only, I like the soft hard feel of the shirts.

My current situation is
- I have orders about 800 pieces of my own shirts a month. The sales should be increasing as my current customer base grows larger, plus, I will be taking order for custom t-shirt from school, corp, organization....etc.
- I limit myself to use maximum of 4 colors of my own shirt. Mostly I only use 1 or 2 colors.
- I plan to invest about 10k in equipments at this early stage. The less the better at this early stage.
- I have about 500sf for my workshop.
- It's a manual workshop.
- I will look for used equipments.

So, I wonder what equipments are good and can provide me with its value. It doesn't have to be overkill since my budget is only 10k. but, the equipments have to be decent, ease to use and scalable before i jump to next stage.

- Which manual press is the best value for me at current stage? have to be ease to use and the registration won't go off.
- Which dryer should I use, that's best for curing discharge/water-based ink, not too slow in curing and within my budget?
- Which inks or pigment system provide its best value in term of ease to use and cost efficiency?
- Are there any other specific equipments that discharge/water-based ink printing should be aware of?

Thanks for your help in advance. And, thanks for reading.

[jvanick]

First, do you have experience in screen printing right now, there is definitely a learning curve, and with waterbase/discharge inks you will be ruining a lot of shirts early on while you learn how to print, cure, washtest, etc.

--- Which dryer should I use, that's best for curing discharge/water-based ink, not too slow in curing and within my budget?
 
best for curing discharge & waterbase ink that's not too slow is going to be natural gas, which is certainly out of your space requirement.  While you certainly can cure discharge with an electric dryer, it's certainly not the most efficient, predictable, or reliable way to cure.  Also. where is your 500sq feet located... the discharge agent stinks to holy hell while it's cooking off, so doing discharge in your basement or elsewhere in your house is not a really great idea.

if you decide to go the electric dryer route, you're going to most likely need 30-50amp 220v service in your shop.

As far as manual presses, After having gone the old beater used press route, I'd highly recommend the new M&R Kruzer as your 'starter' press... it's 'entry-level' in price only, holds registration great, will grow with your business (any platens you buy can be transitioned to other presses), micros work great, is totally tool-less, and has side clamps for the screens, which in my opinion is the only way to go on a manual.   Depending on if you can pick it up from your supplier or not and where they're located, you can pick one up for as little as $3300 brand new and ready to be put together.

You didn't say how many shirts per screen you're planning on doing, but if you're doing any quantity over 40 or 50 shirts, you'll want a good exposure unit to expose screens, otherwise you could have the screens breaking down on you.   Luckily with many of us starting to upgrade to LED units, you can pick up some of the older Metal Halide units at bargain-basement prices, so that's definitely something to look out for.

I'm sure others will chime in with a lot more thoughts and opinions as well, read them, do research, and figure out what you feel is best for your needs. 

If you decide to go this route, welcome to the insanity.

[mimosatexas]

I second the suggestion of the Kruzer as your press.  I use it everyday as my main press and print about 50% waterbased/discharge.  It holds great registration and is incredibly well built for the price.

I use an ancient 10'x36" National dryer to cure discharge.  It is not at all efficient, but it gets the job done and I bought it for $400 in perfect working condition.  I did pay an electrician to go over it for safety reasons though because of its age.  It is 220 and pulls 42-43 amps when first starting up.  You will likely need a 50 amp circuit for a similar dryer.

I have two main opinions about your endeavor:

1. You WILL ruin lots of shirts and pull your hair out trying to learn how to properly print with waterbased inks.  They dry in the screen while you troubleshoot.  They react differently on different brands/blends/etc and figuring out why can be a pain.  There are tons of additives and lots of chemisty involved in waterbased printing that simply isnt necessary for plastisol, and as such the amount of variables that affect the final product increases.  Be prepared to do LOTS of testing and spend quite a bit of time and money mastering the process.  It is worth it though as waterbased/discharge is awesome a lot of the time.

2. I admire the idea of sticking to a single kind of ink, but you will limit a lot of what you can do using it.  If you're not printing on 100% cotton or light colors you will lose a lot of the advantages of a waterbased print to achieve a bright final print.  you will have to underbase and flash and use specialized inks and additives on basically any blend, losing a lot of the simplicity and the soft hand.  I have printing halftone based high mesh top color shirts manually with plastisol on triblends that are softer and more vibrant than I have been able to print using waterbased inks.  I personally believe there are benefits to using the best tool for the job rather than sticking to a single tool out of principal.  You will end up saying "I can't do that" to a lot of jobs or produce subpar prints.  Just my opinion.

[starrider]

First, do you have experience in screen printing right now, there is definitely a learning curve, and with waterbase/discharge inks you will be ruining a lot of shirts early on while you learn how to print, cure, washtest, etc.

--- Which dryer should I use, that's best for curing discharge/water-based ink, not too slow in curing and within my budget?
 
best for curing discharge & waterbase ink that's not too slow is going to be natural gas, which is certainly out of your space requirement.  While you certainly can cure discharge with an electric dryer, it's certainly not the most efficient, predictable, or reliable way to cure.  Also. where is your 500sq feet located... the discharge agent stinks to holy hell while it's cooking off, so doing discharge in your basement or elsewhere in your house is not a really great idea.

if you decide to go the electric dryer route, you're going to most likely need 30-50amp 220v service in your shop.

As far as manual presses, After having gone the old beater used press route, I'd highly recommend the new M&R Kruzer as your 'starter' press... it's 'entry-level' in price only, holds registration great, will grow with your business (any platens you buy can be transitioned to other presses), micros work great, is totally tool-less, and has side clamps for the screens, which in my opinion is the only way to go on a manual.   Depending on if you can pick it up from your supplier or not and where they're located, you can pick one up for as little as $3300 brand new and ready to be put together.

You didn't say how many shirts per screen you're planning on doing, but if you're doing any quantity over 40 or 50 shirts, you'll want a good exposure unit to expose screens, otherwise you could have the screens breaking down on you.   Luckily with many of us starting to upgrade to LED units, you can pick up some of the older Metal Halide units at bargain-basement prices, so that's definitely something to look out for.

I'm sure others will chime in with a lot more thoughts and opinions as well, read them, do research, and figure out what you feel is best for your needs. 

If you decide to go this route, welcome to the insanity.

Thanks for your helpful information.

I don't have much screen printing experience like most of you guys here. About 2 months ago, I just started attending screen printing classes and rent the studio about twice a week, try to learn and master the printing technique. The studio only use water-based ink, so... I still dunno how's the discharge pigment work, is it a lot harder? which discharge pigment system do you guys recommend?

My printing space is located in high ceiling loft, there are some windows, is the smell that bad? because I do live in the same unit but divided by wall but the wall doesn't go all the way up, it has about 2 inches space on the top.

I do have some outlet for 220v, it was built for old school air-conditioner, is it work for the dryer? Do you specific any specific brand or model for the dryer?

My current order is about 10-400 shirts per design, it's really hard to say. To save time, I guess I need a bigger size exposure unit to expose at least 2 screen at the same time. I guess it's pretty expensive to buy something like this? So, I plan to build one, any suggestion?

Thanks again.

[starrider]

I second the suggestion of the Kruzer as your press.  I use it everyday as my main press and print about 50% waterbased/discharge.  It holds great registration and is incredibly well built for the price.

I use an ancient 10'x36" National dryer to cure discharge.  It is not at all efficient, but it gets the job done and I bought it for $400 in perfect working condition.  I did pay an electrician to go over it for safety reasons though because of its age.  It is 220 and pulls 42-43 amps when first starting up.  You will likely need a 50 amp circuit for a similar dryer.

I have two main opinions about your endeavor:

1. You WILL ruin lots of shirts and pull your hair out trying to learn how to properly print with waterbased inks.  They dry in the screen while you troubleshoot.  They react differently on different brands/blends/etc and figuring out why can be a pain.  There are tons of additives and lots of chemisty involved in waterbased printing that simply isnt necessary for plastisol, and as such the amount of variables that affect the final product increases.  Be prepared to do LOTS of testing and spend quite a bit of time and money mastering the process.  It is worth it though as waterbased/discharge is awesome a lot of the time.

2. I admire the idea of sticking to a single kind of ink, but you will limit a lot of what you can do using it.  If you're not printing on 100% cotton or light colors you will lose a lot of the advantages of a waterbased print to achieve a bright final print.  you will have to underbase and flash and use specialized inks and additives on basically any blend, losing a lot of the simplicity and the soft hand.  I have printing halftone based high mesh top color shirts manually with plastisol on triblends that are softer and more vibrant than I have been able to print using waterbased inks.  I personally believe there are benefits to using the best tool for the job rather than sticking to a single tool out of principal.  You will end up saying "I can't do that" to a lot of jobs or produce subpar prints.  Just my opinion.

Thanks for your information.

I will probably look for a used M&R Kruzer. The used one should be ok, right?

About your dryer, how much time it take to cure a discharge/water-based ink shirt, roughly? how much time you think is decent for curing discharge/water-based shirt? The current space I learn and practice screen printing doesn't have dryer at all. I just hang the shirt and let it "air-dry".

I do plan to stick with one brand and their color options (t-shirt or hoodie) since I mainly print for my own design at this early stage.

The current studio that I learn screen printing doesn't have plastisol ink at all. So, I never printed with plastisol before. Since I heard plastisol have chemical, are there any additional or different steps required for preparation and cleaning if I printing on plastisol instead of water-based? It would be great if you can share the information.

I will stick with water-based for my own designs, but will use plastisol if I need to (for custom order). I do agree using the right tools for the right jobs, I will even use heat-press for the numbering on the jersey if I get some custom orders for sport team :)

Thanks again!

[Frog]

That press is a pretty new model, so there may not be a lot of used examples. However, with used dryers being plentiful, as well as probably an exposure unit as well, and maybe a washout booth and incidentals from someone either moving up or bailing out, your $10,000 could easily absorb the cost of a new press if that's the model you've decided upon.

Now, not to take anything away from the Kruzer, (it's a great machine at that price point) but if you really want to go used and save money, there are many other great manuals out there.

[starrider]

That press is a pretty new model, so there may not be a lot of used examples. However, with used dryers being plentiful, as well as probably an exposure unit as well, and maybe a washout booth and incidentals from someone either moving up or bailing out, your $10,000 could easily absorb the cost of a new press if that's the model you've decided upon.

Now, not to take anything away from the Kruzer, (it's a great machine at that price point) but if you really want to go used and save money, there are many other great manuals out there.

Thanks for your input.

Do you have any recommendation on any used manuals that are great?

Thanks again.

[mimosatexas]

Finding a used Kruzer is going to be pretty much impossible right now I would think.  They just started shipping at the beginning of this year, and most people buying them seem to love em.  I think I have machine #26.

If you can find a used Vastex v2000, M&R sidewinder/chameleon, or Antec Legend for under $4000 in good shape with at least 6 colors and 4 stations locally I would snap it up.  They are all technically superior to the Kruzer, though they will take up more room and you may have to clean em up a bit and you're more or less on your own when it comes to fixing them.  Not really an issue, just something to think about.

You will need some way to heat up the shirts rather than air drying like you can with cheapo waterbased inks. Any dryer that can cure plastisol will cure discharge.  Anyone who tells you differently never actually tried with low end stuff.  I started curing discharge using a coil flash dryer and a heat gun.  It took forever and sucked, but it worked fine.  My current dryer takes about 2 minutes to properly cure a larger deposit of discharge on a humid day.  You can't really over cure discharge though, so running a job through a second time on a small dryer to be sure it's cured isn't a problem, it just takes a little more time.  I would basically get the biggest dryer you can afford that works with your space and available power.  If you only have one 220 and you don't know the amperage, you need to find out.  Most single phase electric dryers will be under 50 amps, so you should be fine on a standard circuit, but you need to know before shelling out for something that won't work in your space.  The wider and longer the dryer, the more shirts and larger prints you can cure, and the faster you can do it.  Otherwise, they all get to the same temp (or should) so that shouldnt be a deciding factor.

You can build almost every other piece of equipment for a fraction of what you would pay new with stuff you can source at any hardware store, BUT I would check for used stuff first as you can get great deals on stuff sometimes with a little patience. If you are in a hurry though you can build everything.  A workable exposure unit is about $100 of materials using tube bulbs, or you can build a fully functional 1000w Metal Halide vacuum topped unit for about $400.  A vacuum pump will run you about $100, the glass will be around $50, the blanket another $50, and the light source and bulb will be around $150.  Build a frame to hold everything and youre done.  I used a prefab shower stall unit for my washout booth, under $100 not counting the lighting and pressure washer.  I've had it for 4 years and it works perfectly.  I built a ridiculous drying cabinet, but you can do that for dirt cheap as well.  Tables, racks, shelves, carts, etc are all easy to build and you can customize them to your needs and your space.

[Frog]

That press is a pretty new model, so there may not be a lot of used examples. However, with used dryers being plentiful, as well as probably an exposure unit as well, and maybe a washout booth and incidentals from someone either moving up or bailing out, your $10,000 could easily absorb the cost of a new press if that's the model you've decided upon.

Now, not to take anything away from the Kruzer, (it's a great machine at that price point) but if you really want to go used and save money, there are many other great manuals out there.

Thanks for your input.

Do you have any recommendation on any used manuals that are great?

Thanks again.

Though not all as slick (and probably not all "toolless"), you can look at Hopkins, Workhorse, Antec, Rototex, Vastex, even maybe a used M&R Sidewinder and probably another three or four that I missed.

If time allows, you can always check in here for opinions on what you find.

There are already great used presses out there in the $1000 range, so for a little more, you could get something even cooler. That's why we cringe when folks buy into the cheap new crap that's available, just cause it looks like a deal.

[sqslabs]

If you're going to be using discharge and waterbased inks exclusively, I'd recommend using a nice portion of your budget toward a used gas dryer.  Otherwise you'll end up having to run shirts through the dryer more than once or at a super slow belt speed to achieve a proper cure.  I did that for the first year or so of my shop, and it really slows down the production process, even on a manual.

I'd agree with what everyone else has said in regards to the presses, etc.  But I can't stress enough about the dryer as it will quickly become your first major bottleneck with WB/discharge if & when things really start moving.  That's not to say you can't sure those inks using a standard dryer.  I used a small electric dryer before upgrading to gas, and if you have more time than orders on your hands that would be fine.  But if you're looking to be one step ahead of the game when it comes to growing your business, gas is the way to go for these inks.

[starrider]

Finding a used Kruzer is going to be pretty much impossible right now I would think.  They just started shipping at the beginning of this year, and most people buying them seem to love em.  I think I have machine #26.

If you can find a used Vastex v2000, M&R sidewinder/chameleon, or Antec Legend for under $4000 in good shape with at least 6 colors and 4 stations locally I would snap it up.  They are all technically superior to the Kruzer, though they will take up more room and you may have to clean em up a bit and you're more or less on your own when it comes to fixing them.  Not really an issue, just something to think about.

You will need some way to heat up the shirts rather than air drying like you can with cheapo waterbased inks. Any dryer that can cure plastisol will cure discharge.  Anyone who tells you differently never actually tried with low end stuff.  I started curing discharge using a coil flash dryer and a heat gun.  It took forever and sucked, but it worked fine.  My current dryer takes about 2 minutes to properly cure a larger deposit of discharge on a humid day.  You can't really over cure discharge though, so running a job through a second time on a small dryer to be sure it's cured isn't a problem, it just takes a little more time.  I would basically get the biggest dryer you can afford that works with your space and available power.  If you only have one 220 and you don't know the amperage, you need to find out.  Most single phase electric dryers will be under 50 amps, so you should be fine on a standard circuit, but you need to know before shelling out for something that won't work in your space.  The wider and longer the dryer, the more shirts and larger prints you can cure, and the faster you can do it.  Otherwise, they all get to the same temp (or should) so that shouldnt be a deciding factor.

You can build almost every other piece of equipment for a fraction of what you would pay new with stuff you can source at any hardware store, BUT I would check for used stuff first as you can get great deals on stuff sometimes with a little patience. If you are in a hurry though you can build everything.  A workable exposure unit is about $100 of materials using tube bulbs, or you can build a fully functional 1000w Metal Halide vacuum topped unit for about $400.  A vacuum pump will run you about $100, the glass will be around $50, the blanket another $50, and the light source and bulb will be around $150.  Build a frame to hold everything and youre done.  I used a prefab shower stall unit for my washout booth, under $100 not counting the lighting and pressure washer.  I've had it for 4 years and it works perfectly.  I built a ridiculous drying cabinet, but you can do that for dirt cheap as well.  Tables, racks, shelves, carts, etc are all easy to build and you can customize them to your needs and your space.

Thanks again for your helpful information.

I will probably buy the new Kruzer since the brand new price is only $2995, compared to $4000 used press. I'm not sure if I know how to fix the used press since the whole screen printing and its hardware are pretty new to me.

I'm located in Chicago, will browse the net to find some shops that sell used equipments.

I think i will look for some used equipments now and post them up for opinions.

Thanks again!

[starrider]

That press is a pretty new model, so there may not be a lot of used examples. However, with used dryers being plentiful, as well as probably an exposure unit as well, and maybe a washout booth and incidentals from someone either moving up or bailing out, your $10,000 could easily absorb the cost of a new press if that's the model you've decided upon.

Now, not to take anything away from the Kruzer, (it's a great machine at that price point) but if you really want to go used and save money, there are many other great manuals out there.

Thanks for your input.

Do you have any recommendation on any used manuals that are great?

Thanks again.

Though not all as slick (and probably not all "toolless"), you can look at Hopkins, Workhorse, Antec, Rototex, Vastex, even maybe a used M&R Sidewinder and probably another three or four that I missed.

If time allows, you can always check in here for opinions on what you find.

There are already great used presses out there in the $1000 range, so for a little more, you could get something even cooler. That's why we cringe when folks buy into the cheap new crap that's available, just cause it looks like a deal.

Thanks again for your helpful information.

I will look a thru the classified forum to see if I can find some good deals. Will probably order a new one Kruzer if I can't find any deals. Some of the mentioned used press seem priced higher than the new Kruzer, except Vastex 2000.

Thanks again.

[mimosatexas]

The $4000 is just a high end price.  Anything above that I wouldn't pay for those brands/models used.  You can find them for less, sometimes a LOT less.  Also, being that youre in a huge city, you should be able to find a lot of used equipment easily and quickly.

I did a quick search on craigslist in your area and found the following:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/bfs/4590551882.html (no price, but a great brand/model of press and two dryers and some peripherals)

Also. this site: http://www.screenprintexchange.com though I dont know if they are scammy, which you need to be aware of.

Look on digitsmith.com as well

[starrider]

If you're going to be using discharge and waterbased inks exclusively, I'd recommend using a nice portion of your budget toward a used gas dryer.  Otherwise you'll end up having to run shirts through the dryer more than once or at a super slow belt speed to achieve a proper cure.  I did that for the first year or so of my shop, and it really slows down the production process, even on a manual.

I'd agree with what everyone else has said in regards to the presses, etc.  But I can't stress enough about the dryer as it will quickly become your first major bottleneck with WB/discharge if & when things really start moving.  That's not to say you can't sure those inks using a standard dryer.  I used a small electric dryer before upgrading to gas, and if you have more time than orders on your hands that would be fine.  But if you're looking to be one step ahead of the game when it comes to growing your business, gas is the way to go for these inks.

Thanks for your input.

What kind of physical setup needed for the gas dryer? Is it complicated and costly to setup all the gas pipe? I plan to setup my workshop in my live/work loft in city setup, is it possible for the gas dryer? Will my living space get affected by the gas dryer? Sorry for the stupid questions because "gas dryer" seems much more industrial to me, it sounds like a factory setup to me.

Any particular brand and model of gas dryer (new or used) for consideration with my limited budget?

Thanks!

[Binkspot]

Mimosatexas covered the dryer part and checking your amperage. But what about getting the equipment into your space, stairs, narrow door ways or hall ways? A small dryer will be slow, it can be done but slow.

Other considerations, storing coated screens, reclaim, storage space (6 boxes for 400 shirts), washing the image in the screen. The nickel and dime stuff like squeegees, screens, adhesive, ink, emulsion, reclaim chemicals. You drop 10k on equipment you may need another 1k to get started.  Are you going to need a flash for your prints?

Water base and discharge can be just as harmful as plastisol, maybe not in the same ways but it can be. If you can do WB you can handle plastisol.

Used equipment is the way to go there are plenty of good deals to be had just don't fall for junk. Like Frog said there are plenty of brains to pick here and don't fall for the 1k starter kit with everything you need. There is a reason one new press is 5k and the whole starter kit with press, exposure unit, dryer and supplies is 1k.

Not killing the idea, sounds like you have put some thought into all this just make sure you have all the details before dropping a pile of money on stuff that may or may not work out.

Gas dryer would most likely be out of the question from the space you are describing.