my field trip

[jonbravado]

can I ask why you took sroque over the sabre?

we are trying to decide on air - vs - ac/servo for our next auto printheads and have narrowed it down to:

sabre / sportsman / sroque / mhm

the research is overwhelming.  I am most familiar with workhorse and m&r . Great products and service on both.

[Binkspot]

There shouldn't even be a question between air and AC/servo. If you can afford to pull the trigger on the later just cross air off the list.

[TCT]

Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?

Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...

Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.

Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.


Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?

[tonyt79]

Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?

Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...

Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.

Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.


Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?

I didn't really mean that I plan to upgrade in a year. Just that I have more work than my manual and I can handle right now, but not the budget to go jump in the deep end of the pool. Hoping that I can push more out and bring more in to have that budget down the road.

My space that I have is roughly 19x20 to fit press and dryer. I could go a little bigger. I am taking down a wall to help make some room. I am looking at getting a package deal because my dryer now will not handle it.

Thanks on the desk. It is made out of fence boards mostly. I have a counter that is built the same and my shop kinda has them all over the place.

[tonyt79]

Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?

Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...

Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.

Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.


Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?

Once I started typing I forgot all you asked. 3 phase power, 7 1/2 foot door roughly. Been looking 6/8 but would prefer 8/10 if I can make it work

[TCT]

Dude, you have what you need to dip your toes in!

You could sub the work out and build up some cash to move. I know that sounds like a sucky idea, but if I didn't say it someone else would of! In all reality it is probably the "best" decision, but it is hard to sub work out when you know you can do it...

You ever thought of picking up a cheaper used auto and dryer to get you through till you have more room? The nice thing about that is when/if you move and have more space for a bigger set up, your used press which you will then call your "beater" can be kept for simple 1 color jobs or tags and whatnot...

Just a thought.

[jonbravado]

Tony I wasn't trying to hijack the thread with my questions. I was in your situation about a year ago and got a newer used freedom/javelin with two flashbacks and chopper upgrade on head one. It has been an awesome press and we just did a 6 c front 6 c back on darks this week.  And we've printed 6 doz/ hr on it several times on no-flash jobs. I have way more than gotten my moneys worth out of it.  13 ft diameter.  NOW we are looking into a 10 or 12 color to accomodate more work. Space is not a problem. Cold ink CAN be a challenge but if you stir/work it first its no issues. I almost went the diamondback route and am glad I didn't. PM me and I can give you more info. 

TCT if those questions were for me then no space limits to speak of. Looking for a 10/12 or 12/14.  No threephase currently. Our dryer can handle as fast as we can print 8/doz hr. Unless we are doing discharge then it slows. We have multiple bays and a loading dock.

Tony that countertop desk is awesome. You for hire?

[TCT]

Tony I wasn't trying to hijack the thread with my questions. I was in your situation about a year ago and got a newer used freedom/javelin with two flashbacks and chopper upgrade on head one. It has been an awesome press and we just did a 6 c front 6 c back on darks this week.  And we've printed 6 doz/ hr on it several times on no-flash jobs. I have way more than gotten my moneys worth out of it.  13 ft diameter.  NOW we are looking into a 10 or 12 color to accomodate more work. Space is not a problem. Cold ink CAN be a challenge but if you stir/work it first its no issues. I almost went the diamondback route and am glad I didn't. PM me and I can give you more info. 

TCT if those questions were for me then no space limits to speak of. Looking for a 10/12 or 12/14.  No threephase currently. Our dryer can handle as fast as we can print 8/doz hr. Unless we are doing discharge then it slows. We have multiple bays and a loading dock.

Tony that countertop desk is awesome. You for hire?

6dz/hr and 8dz/hr? I am guessing you probably made a typo here....

Anyway, that is a great example of what I was talking about. Find something that you don't have to sink a bunch of coin into right now if you know you will need to move. Then when/if you move chances are your circumstances/needs/requirements will change, and you can get a big SOB!

@jonbravado- Sounds like you have the space, 3 phase power tends to be helpful, definitely makes things easier, but you could feasibly make a go of it with single phase.... There are compressors out there that you can get made in single phase, and most if not all equipment manufacturers will let you specify a new press, dryer or flashes in single phase. If it comes down to it you can always get a quote from your power company of what the cost and or possibility of a upgrade to 3 phase would cost. We upgraded, it was going to cost nearly $20K, but after some back and forth and thinking outside of the box, we were able to bring the power into our building from another direction(we are on a corner lot) and the cost became $0!!! So there are ways to do it.

[jonbravado]

Meant to type 6 doz/hr - 800 pcs/hr - which we HAVE done on that press and our dryer with a loader, unloader and two people at the end of the dryer - and plenty of ink in the screen.  When printing a small one color imprint no flash with adjusted print stroke, it's totally doable.  Our main printer is fast, and can load a lot faster than me.

We had our dryer rewired for single phase - it pulls more AMPS, but it's quite efficient otherwise. 

Tony - If space limitations are in play - then it's really hard to beat the value of a workhorse press with the flashback(s).  And if printing white/flash/white - you only have to burn a single white screen and use the flashback.  So it saves you time and money.  I am going to offload my setup + a good forced air dryer in the next little while.  It'll make someone very happy for a first auto, as it did us.

I am really looking hard into the Sabre right now (and the sportsman) - they are comparable price-wise, but i could go two less heads with the sabre and get a flashback + a regular auto flash and be quite versatile.  Decisions decisions.........  I remember when M&R was the only real choice.  The good old days, perhaps?  Or is all this competition great for innovation?

[Binkspot]

Your selling your self short if you sacrifice two heads for a flash back. Your production time will suffer and no mater how many heads you get it will always be nice to have just one more. Flash backs and step backs are nice but more for someone with limited space or trying to get as much as they can out of a small press.

[alan802]

I didn't know a javelin was that fast, good to know.

[sqslabs]

I didn't know a javelin was that fast, good to know.

We never got even close to that on ours.  Maybe 400/hr max running at full speed.  We don't have stroke stops though so maybe that's the difference. 

[Binkspot]

I think full out ours only was in the 400-500 range and it shook like crazy. I don't even think it can dry cycle that fast, indexer can't cycle that fast.

[jvanick]

I think full out ours only was in the 400-500 range and it shook like crazy. I don't even think it can dry cycle that fast, indexer can't cycle that fast.

this is very true.  500/hr is about max for dry cycling.  I believe that workhorse rates it around 600/hr, but if you don't want the machine banging and jumping, it's typically slowed down a bit.

Also, with an air indexer like the Javelin, you're loading and unloading takes much more effort.

running our Sportsman at 800/hr or even 850/hr feels like we were running the Javelin around 400/hr, it's that drastic of a difference going from air index to servo index.

Honestly, unless you're buying used at a GREAT price, stay away from a Javelin or Freedom, especially the ones that have V-Squeegees... while we learned how to use it, and get some really good prints out of it, it's not something I would wish on a newer printer...

Oh, and the Flashback is slow as molasses... best print speed we were ever able to get with using the flashback was around 300/hr.

[Baron265]

Workhorse has a new press coming out. It has a Small Footprint, Small Price and the Workhorse OS.