Author Topic: Cheap is cheap for a reason  (Read 3192 times)

Offline inkman996

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 12:26:32 PM »
Brad and Mike...it isnt really about high high tensions it is about consistency.  We have all our screens dialed in within 2 newtons of each other...that makes for faster set ups, which then leads to faster printing thus leading to more output through the day...again the right tools....we can ensure that they are the same by using roller frames vs. statics as they loose tension at different rates. 


Sam I agree on what you say but my point is it is still a choice. You have to put more labor into maintaining them rollers and anyone that says different is a liar. Now that extra time in the rollers is made back up on the press with the other benefits you mention. Make sense? Us that use quality static systems and those that use rollers that are cared for correctly both reach the same goal albeit a slightly different path.

One thing I will say and this is not an argument just my own opinion is that I really never see the benefit of faster setup with higher tensions, I can line up a static as fast as i could the roller, I mean seriously if the static was off in any way it wouldn't even be used anyways unless you plan on printing crap.

Just so everyone knows I am speaking of quality tensions on the static system whether aluminum or panel frames, obviously if you are using statics that are saggier than Joan Rivers ta ta's then my points are useless.
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Offline stitches4815

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 12:26:49 PM »
I feel these suppliers catering to the "home printer" are doing a huge disservice by selling crap, I am learning more and realizing I may have been taken with some of my "less expensive" alternatives.
I take offense to the term "home printer".  A lot of us print in our homes but by no means does this make us some sort of low life.  The amount of money that we have invested in our equipment and supplies is by no means cheap.  I think the term you may be thinking of is hobbiest. 

Offline Socalfmf

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 12:32:29 PM »
MIke..

yes it is for faster set up in registration..  the lower the mesh tension the more you have to mess with the underbase, the butt regi ect...with properly tension you help eliminate those problems...I really saw it on darks shirts with underbases.  The tensions for the underbases were about 10newtons this pushing the mesh vs. shearing the ink off....having consistent mesh tension helps with all this..

Yes Mike it does take about 15 min a week to ensure all tensions are where we want them, but doing my time studies we save about 6x that per week in set ups and printing times....so I have happy with that ROI...

Sam

Offline inkman996

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 12:53:24 PM »
Sam who prints underbases with 10 newtons? I don't. My frames are much higher than that maybe not in those crazy 40 newton ranges but higher so no we do not experience the mesh rolling in front of the squeegee. Sam if I ever printed an underbase that stretched out then it would not even be used, it would look like crap so that never happens here so your point that I have to take longer to set up a base print is invalid since my screen prints the same base as your does. Sorry.

As for butt reg are you kidding me? I never trap a thing ever and yet I still print butt reg day in and day out with out them issues. Why well simple I either maintain our panel frames with new panels or I get quality re-stretched statics.

Sam I am not arguing the beneis of the rollers I am saying it is a choice, it is not mandatory to be a good printer in any way. If we were a larger shop with more employees then I could afford to have a more dedicated screen tech to stretch and adjust tensions. As it is it is a huge amount of time for us to do this for our selves it really sucks.

One thing I have appreciated after using the rollers for quite a while is the change in weight, lugging M3's is quite a difference from the statics in my opinion.
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Offline Socalfmf

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 01:22:35 PM »
Mike

I did...I did not know any better...and that is part of this tread...using the right tools with certain perimeters.  having consistencies on screen tension i feel is a huge issue...



sam 

Offline inkman996

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 01:50:23 PM »
I am not arguin consistency is not important in fact I completely agree. I also feel 2 newton tolerance is simply over kill, I believe that our screens are well with in 5 newtons of each other depending on mesh count and that is more than sufficient!
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Offline ftembroidery

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 02:12:18 PM »
I remember talking to one printer nearby that says he prints 2k shirts/day.  He also said he never reclaims screens.  He uses static aluminums. He buys them in such a large quantity, that it's more cost effective to warehouse and library the screens instead of reclaim & reuse.  I also remember a thread by Douglas Grigar a while back on that very subject.
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Offline T Shirt1

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 02:45:07 PM »
Seems to me I read the same thing about a company who bought wood frames in quantity used them once and pitched them.
steve

Offline inkman996

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 02:49:46 PM »
You might have heard that from me and it is a true story.

The company prints large runs only and all simple 1 to 3 color stuff. They buy wood frames in bulk much cheaper than even we can buy them. They run them once then toss them or burn not sure what. Point is the pay nothing in chemistry, they pay nothing in screen maintenance (labor) and of course they charge more for the screen than it actually costs them.

This company is no small fry and they print exclusively for both universities and uniform companies. The owner is probably the closest I ever seen to a rich screen printer.
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Offline ftembroidery

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 02:55:12 PM »
The particular screen printer I was talking about is in the neighboring county.  He came to my house to buy my Hix dryer and some other stuff in a new pickup.  Part of the deal was he would print my most recent order for me and deliver them to me.  When he delivered the order he was driving a new Cadillac.  I hope he can afford to buy such things and not be up to his eyebrows in debt trying to show off.
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Offline Sbrem

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 03:46:48 PM »
You might have heard that from me and it is a true story.

The company prints large runs only and all simple 1 to 3 color stuff. They buy wood frames in bulk much cheaper than even we can buy them. They run them once then toss them or burn not sure what. Point is the pay nothing in chemistry, they pay nothing in screen maintenance (labor) and of course they charge more for the screen than it actually costs them.

This company is no small fry and they print exclusively for both universities and uniform companies. The owner is probably the closest I ever seen to a rich screen printer.

About 25 years ago, a large national printer in my area bought roller frames so they could remove the mesh after the job was done, no cleanup, then restretch for the next job. Not exactly work hardening them, but their quality was total $hlT,  which they couldn't see anyway, or much less care about it. I don't think you need super high tension, but consistent, that is all frames in the same neighborhood. So, if all your frames are 20 newtons, they'll do fine. I printed zillions with wood frames that didn't even register on a tension meter. Obviously, I prefer retensionables now, but I know I did a lot with the wood boys...

Steve
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Offline alan802

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 05:53:30 PM »
I would like to say that using high tension and having a perfectly calibrated press isn't a necessity.  Your press needs to be fairly consistent from pallet to pallet and printhead to printhead but it doesn't need to be dead nuts, within a sheet of paper of one another to benefit.  By my standards, our press is out of whack, the pallets are within 1/32" from one another, there might be a corner here and there that's more than that, and we still reap the rewards of high tension screens.  I would guess that your press would have to be really out of parallel to have real problems with high tension screens, meaning maybe 1/8" or so differences in pallet to pallet.  Is that where some of you would guess that your press is as far as parallelism goes?  I know if your press is within 1/32" or even a millimeter out of parallel then you will still benefit greatly with high tension, we are doing it right now.  I don't like the fact that our press isn't perfect, but we have been way too busy for me to calibrate it.
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Offline jsheridan

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 06:34:31 PM »
I love reading this stuff for the simple joy to watch people scramble to post in their defense of why using inferior products works for them.. ROLFMAO!!!

Go look in any top notch mechanics tool box and tell me if you find anything from Harbor Freight in there.. you might find some Craftsman but I bet you find Matco and Snap On.. why..

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND IT TAKES QUALITY TOOLS TO DO QUALITY WORK!!!!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 06:37:08 PM by jsheridan »
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Offline thinkdesign

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 06:44:58 PM »
I feel these suppliers catering to the "home printer" are doing a huge disservice by selling crap, I am learning more and realizing I may have been taken with some of my "less expensive" alternatives.
I take offense to the term "home printer".  A lot of us print in our homes but by no means does this make us some sort of low life.  The amount of money that we have invested in our equipment and supplies is by no means cheap.  I think the term you may be thinking of is hobbiest.

I second that thought. "hobbiest not home"

Offline sweetts

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Re: Cheap is cheap for a reason
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 09:10:18 PM »
I feel these suppliers catering to the "home printer" are doing a huge disservice by selling crap, I am learning more and realizing I may have been taken with some of my "less expensive" alternatives.
I take offense to the term "home printer".  A lot of us print in our homes but by no means does this make us some sort of low life.  The amount of money that we have invested in our equipment and supplies is by no means cheap.  I think the term you may be thinking of is hobbiest.

I started as a Home printer but yes, more of a hobbiestn at that time, now I do it for money from my home and work to prefect my product. So what would you call that??? I would call it a Home printer. I assure you I am aware of the monies spent on equipment and the talent that people who work from their homes have, if you take offense to that sorry but I think a hobbiest and a home printer are  different. Do you say people have a home business or a hobby? The supplier I purchased these from said they cater to the smaller home based businesses OR HOME PRINTERS how the heck you would think that would mean I think you are a low life is quite the leap.
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