Author Topic: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.  (Read 19944 times)

Offline T Shirt Farmer

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2021, 07:21:49 PM »
I also fall outside of the young whippersnapper category, I made our first halftones with a contact screen and tray developed films. It's so easy now compared to that. We'd make 3 different exposures on the film, a highlight bump (no screen) then the main exposure, followed by the shadow exposure, which was done by exposing the film to a 7 watt darkroom light with the yellow filter on it, which would help open the shadows. I got a lot of good info from the Kodak Halftone Guide. I'm OK with today's results, not to mention we don't have a process camera and darkroom anymore.

Steve

You win Steve, I thought I was the oldest fart in this place opened shop 1985, I too had a strip printer, camera and darkroom for developing. Awesome memories indeed!
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Offline mk162

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2021, 11:12:27 AM »
I also fall outside of the young whippersnapper category, I made our first halftones with a contact screen and tray developed films. It's so easy now compared to that. We'd make 3 different exposures on the film, a highlight bump (no screen) then the main exposure, followed by the shadow exposure, which was done by exposing the film to a 7 watt darkroom light with the yellow filter on it, which would help open the shadows. I got a lot of good info from the Kodak Halftone Guide. I'm OK with today's results, not to mention we don't have a process camera and darkroom anymore.

Steve

You win Steve, I thought I was the oldest fart in this place opened shop 1985, I too had a strip printer, camera and darkroom for developing. Awesome memories indeed!

We're 1985.  My dad had to go to the copy store and get vellum printed there.  We had a good stat camera, but the amount of lint and trash in the films was still crazy.

It's amazing to think of how far we've come.

Offline 3Deep

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2021, 01:14:19 PM »
Dang 1985 I was just getting out of high school getting ready for college and I thought I'm old in this biz, guess I still have tons to learn, great post so far...but I will say most of my customer base could care less about much we put into it to get a great print...they are looking for cheap :o
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Offline zanegun08

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2021, 03:46:09 PM »
I was born in 87,

It's just t-shirts,

I'm not sure what this post is about anymore other than a smaller dot definitely will give a better looking print.

However I would've done this differently as I don't think your print quality in the red and spot colors looks so good.  Without knowing how many pieces it is, just that it needs to be done in 5 colors (wait is it actually a 5 color press, or 6 color with a flash?)

This is what I'd do in revolver mode, although maybe you have a workhorse with a flashback so this would be different.

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash
2 ) Green
3 ) Blue with halftones for the inside of the money
4 ) Box Color
5 ) Black with halftones for the shade on box and probably a little on the inside of the money

Could inverse out some of those halftones from the solids since you are going to be wet on wet for 4 colors.  The only thing is in this print order that would suffer is the highlights in the eyes as I'd prefer a spot white to make that look sharper.

To be honest I try to avoid halftones as much as possible, as I don't like mixing spots and halftones, I like either a full sim process, or full spot colors.

But at the end of the day, if what you are doing you are happy with, then keep doing it.  I wouldn't be happy with the print you posted quality wise, the print looks rough and just not nice.  Sometimes I think it'd be better to just reduce a color out of the image, like maybe drop the box color, add a spot white, and make it a nice solid sharp print.  You could also do the same and drop out some base in areas to have a better print as well.

Many ways to skin a cat, and what I think is quality you may think is not, so really at the end of the day if your customer is happy I'm happy.



Offline blue moon

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2021, 04:02:09 PM »
I was born in 87,

It's just t-shirts,

I'm not sure what this post is about anymore other than a smaller dot definitely will give a better looking print.

However I would've done this differently as I don't think your print quality in the red and spot colors looks so good.  Without knowing how many pieces it is, just that it needs to be done in 5 colors (wait is it actually a 5 color press, or 6 color with a flash?)

This is what I'd do in revolver mode, although maybe you have a workhorse with a flashback so this would be different.

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash
2 ) Green
3 ) Blue with halftones for the inside of the money
4 ) Box Color
5 ) Black with halftones for the shade on box and probably a little on the inside of the money

Could inverse out some of those halftones from the solids since you are going to be wet on wet for 4 colors.  The only thing is in this print order that would suffer is the highlights in the eyes as I'd prefer a spot white to make that look sharper.

To be honest I try to avoid halftones as much as possible, as I don't like mixing spots and halftones, I like either a full sim process, or full spot colors.

But at the end of the day, if what you are doing you are happy with, then keep doing it.  I wouldn't be happy with the print you posted quality wise, the print looks rough and just not nice.  Sometimes I think it'd be better to just reduce a color out of the image, like maybe drop the box color, add a spot white, and make it a nice solid sharp print.  You could also do the same and drop out some base in areas to have a better print as well.

Many ways to skin a cat, and what I think is quality you may think is not, so really at the end of the day if your customer is happy I'm happy.

you are missing the red!
Yes, we've won our share of awards, and yes, I've tested stuff and read the scientific papers, but ultimately take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt! So if you are looking for trouble, just do as I say or even better, do something I said years ago!

Offline mk162

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2021, 04:12:57 PM »
I was born in 87,

It's just t-shirts,

I'm not sure what this post is about anymore other than a smaller dot definitely will give a better looking print.

However I would've done this differently as I don't think your print quality in the red and spot colors looks so good.  Without knowing how many pieces it is, just that it needs to be done in 5 colors (wait is it actually a 5 color press, or 6 color with a flash?)

This is what I'd do in revolver mode, although maybe you have a workhorse with a flashback so this would be different.

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash
2 ) Green
3 ) Blue with halftones for the inside of the money
4 ) Box Color
5 ) Black with halftones for the shade on box and probably a little on the inside of the money

Could inverse out some of those halftones from the solids since you are going to be wet on wet for 4 colors.  The only thing is in this print order that would suffer is the highlights in the eyes as I'd prefer a spot white to make that look sharper.

To be honest I try to avoid halftones as much as possible, as I don't like mixing spots and halftones, I like either a full sim process, or full spot colors.

But at the end of the day, if what you are doing you are happy with, then keep doing it.  I wouldn't be happy with the print you posted quality wise, the print looks rough and just not nice.  Sometimes I think it'd be better to just reduce a color out of the image, like maybe drop the box color, add a spot white, and make it a nice solid sharp print.  You could also do the same and drop out some base in areas to have a better print as well.

Many ways to skin a cat, and what I think is quality you may think is not, so really at the end of the day if your customer is happy I'm happy.

you are missing the red!

Looks like there won't be any profit since the entire job just got rejected.

Offline zanegun08

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2021, 05:31:12 PM »
Haha, DOH!

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash

Revolution 1

1 ) White Base
Flash
2 ) Green
3 ) Blue with halftones for the inside of the money
4 ) Red
5 ) Black with halftones for the shade on box and probably a little on the inside of the money

Make that box white, you could put some black half tones in there for an off white but I wouldn't.

In the future I'll focus on one thing at a time so I don't write silly mistake responses  8)

Offline zanegun08

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2021, 05:38:50 PM »
Also, just so I can dig this grave deeper,

The best thing to do without context (knowing turnaround, quantity, customer, ect.) would've been to sub out this job to someone with a larger press,

and in the time spend trying to make this look ok, you are printing simple stuff that you produce with quality and your equipment constraints,

Making more money, and making better product.

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

This one got off track of the original subject, but yes, higher LPI will produce a "better looking image" we all agree on that.

Offline Dottonedan

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2021, 12:12:37 PM »

Also, just so I can dig this grave deeper,

The best thing to do without context (knowing turnaround, quantity, customer, ect.) would've been to sub out this job to someone with a larger press,

and in the time spend trying to make this look ok, you are printing simple stuff that you produce with quality and your equipment constraints,

Making more money, and making better product.

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

This one got off track of the original subject, but yes, higher LPI will produce a "better looking image" we all agree on that.


"Dig the grave deeper"?  Me thinks you give yourself too much credit. LOL.
You asked me to prove it and post proof of these areas of large open areas benefitting by using a higher lpi.  There is no need to retaliate and criticize the print. It works. Your wasting your time. I already know this to look good for what it is, and what was needed.

I've already evaluated what we need to do with this job and what we've done is the best case scenario.
I didn't give all of the details of the order because I had already evaluated the best method. The best method is not in question. What you see, is the best method.


The task:
This art that contains these colors, and put it on a 6 color press with a flash.  (5 colors).

With a 6 color press, and large areas of solid color on dark shirts, it presents a problem of balancing out the pallet temps and sticking/popping. It would require revolving and creative/extended production time.

1 White
2 Beige
3 Green
4 Red
5 Blue
6 Black


We printed the base, then all wet on wet with a light/soft hand, and easy production.

Back:
Base (double stroke.  230 mesh.
 - -Flash
102 Yellow,305 mesh
185 Red305 mesh - The red is a solid 185 red. Worked out well.
313 Blue305 mesh
Black305 mesh


Same basic art and colors on front.  F&B print.


Yes, we made money on it. This is a contract order sent to us.  It could have looked better with more colors but that was not an option. You suggest I change the art and make it white....and add black over top (but you would not do that yourself).  That would not be the best choice, in comparison to the mixed beige. In fact, having any black halftone over white, is not an option I would ever suggest.  Solid white box, is not coming close to the art provided. Changing the art, is not needed.


The deciding factor to consider was, do I/can I, print it as solids, or do I print it mixed?   Mixing was the best choice.

These are easy for us. We do this type of work a lot.  (small quantity, Dark shirts, Multi color). We will  even do 20 shirts if they pay the price and they have. Due to my processes, seps on these are about 15 minutes unless I may need to clean something up. Setup is about 15 min. We ran with the first strike off, but that's not always the case. Max setup time has been about 30 min. We do these types of jobs about 2 times a wk. But we don't do this just because we can. It has to fit the need. We price accordingly and make money on these.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 12:16:40 PM by Dottonedan »
Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail art@designsbydottone.com 615-821-7850

Offline zanegun08

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2021, 05:26:54 PM »
I was referencing my own grave for missing the red previously.  Nothing to do with you.

If your customer is happy and you are happy, then all is well.

You did what worked for you, I would do the same thing drastically different and I think what I was saying could be taken as constructive criticism.

It's ok to disagree on all the topics of this thread, that's the whole point of the forum to get different viewpoints as the same process I do may not work at all in your environment.  As well as I don't have the full context of the project at hand.

All good!

Offline Dottonedan

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2021, 10:34:02 AM »
I was referencing my own grave for missing the red previously.  Nothing to do with you.

If your customer is happy and you are happy, then all is well.

You did what worked for you, I would do the same thing drastically different and I think what I was saying could be taken as constructive criticism.

It's ok to disagree on all the topics of this thread, that's the whole point of the forum to get different viewpoints as the same process I do may not work at all in your environment.  As well as I don't have the full context of the project at hand.

All good!




Yes, no worries at all. It just started to look like you were getting frustrated by the thread.


It would be a very different approach, if our 18 color press was working at the moment.
Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail art@designsbydottone.com 615-821-7850

Offline T Shirt Farmer

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2021, 10:43:06 AM »
I was referencing my own grave for missing the red previously.  Nothing to do with you.


Some people see Apples and some see Oranges.
Robert
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Offline Dottonedan

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2021, 11:18:45 AM »
I was referencing my own grave for missing the red previously.  Nothing to do with you.


Some people see Apples and some see Oranges.


That’s the worst part of discussions on the internet or email.
Artist & Sim Process separator, Co owner of The Shirt Board, Past M&R Digital tech installer for I-Image machines. Over 28 yrs in the apparel industry. Apparel sales, http://www.designsbydottone.com  e-mail art@designsbydottone.com 615-821-7850

Offline Sbrem

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2021, 12:08:39 PM »
I also fall outside of the young whippersnapper category, I made our first halftones with a contact screen and tray developed films. It's so easy now compared to that. We'd make 3 different exposures on the film, a highlight bump (no screen) then the main exposure, followed by the shadow exposure, which was done by exposing the film to a 7 watt darkroom light with the yellow filter on it, which would help open the shadows. I got a lot of good info from the Kodak Halftone Guide. I'm OK with today's results, not to mention we don't have a process camera and darkroom anymore.

Steve

You win Steve, I thought I was the oldest fart in this place opened shop 1985, I too had a strip printer, camera and darkroom for developing. Awesome memories indeed!

I think Andy might have that honor (curse?) by a year or two.

Steve
I made a mistake once; I thought I was wrong about something; I wasn't

Offline Maff

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Re: OUR DOTS ARE FAT.
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2021, 08:41:17 PM »
so a 50% halftone, with a round dot is perfect checkerboard, no matter what LPI or angle and that is pretty easy to see under a loupe.  So can you at least use that as a starting point to see where you're at?  You could then do tests every 10% or 5% either way and see if it noticeably gets "fatter".  Obviously this is just eyeballing it so it's not a perfect way.  But I feel if you can at least see that on your films or on a burned screen you've got a good idea where your at.  Then it's just compensating backwards for dot gain on press.