eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[alan802]

Alan

I have and noone listens...it is not only about the print time of the dts it is about your artist time, the set up time, the consumables ect....just like Gilligan laughing and saying why are you measuring tape used per year vs. not using tape...well if I save $40.00 bucks a year on scotch tape x 10 yrs...well tell that is some real money, then you take into account faster burn times, set up time ect...that is where you save money or should i say make more money...if you can set up 1 xtra job a day x 5 days to 52 weeks how much more would you make?  be honest what is the profit on your average job?  200 bucks?  if so you have 200x5 - 1000 x 52 that is 52k in a year...

plus the savings from your artist not having to print film, plus the savings of not paying someone to refile the films...plus the savings from the film cost, plus the list goes on and on....

so there you have it...only doing 1 xtra job a day you have more than paid for it in 1 yr...

BOOOOM!

Talk about nobody listening, I've actually given numbers and asked you to prove me wrong, I'm listening but your math doesn't add up.  I'll just be honest here since we are getting nowhere.  A dts unit is not going to yield my shop an extra job per day like "some" because...well...I'll be polite and leave it at that.  If we can't get an ROI with our screen usage, I'm not saying you can't Sam, but I will say if we did less screens than we do there is no way we would get a one year ROI.  Dave at Bimmridder really benefits from dts since he goes through 150 screens per day, but at our usage, and certainly yours, it just doesn't add up unless some other areas are bottlenecks or inefficient.  You act like my artist is not going to be doing something besides printing out film, well, he presses a few buttons and the printer prints film while he does something else.  When we get a dts he's going to be the one using it, not my screen tech, not my printer, and me if I feel like playing with something.  His labor time is going to be close to the same whether or not  he's printing film or a screen. 

You claim to be a great business man, but apparently you don't listen to others very well either.  I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air.  What's next, are you going to tell me it's smarter and more business savvy to use $25 mesh panels instead of $5 bolt mesh?  I've taken what little you actually give and use my expertise which I believe is beyond average when it comes to production and say there is no way our shop will get an ROI within 3 years and you claim I don't know what I'm talking about.  Nobody is asking anyone to justify your purchase, but don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I know more about my shop than the guy telling me I'm wrong.  A one year ROI is something to be proud of but don't crap on my sandwich and tell me it's hamburger.  I know how a shop can get an One year ROI on a $35K DTS so I don't doubt it's true, but maybe what's not being said is what's really important and I'll leave it at the conclusion that I'm taking my numbers that I know to be true against very little known and results that have more to do with something that doesn't have anything to do with dts.

Still love the idea of having one, but us spending 35-65K on something that might be the equivalent of a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on hanging above the press, would be irresponsible for me to do to the business. 

POP BANG FIZZ!

And I will concede I'm wrong when you can develop more screens in an average working day than we can or simply tell me how a dts machine in my shop could give an ROI of one year.  Trust me, I'd listen to that then place an order for one next week, eat crow, white ink and a crapburger, then kiss your pinky ring and tell everyone how great you are.  I don't give a shat about buyers pride or buyers remorse when it comes to an ROI of one year on serious equipment I'll gladly tell everyone who'll listen that I was wrong.  Man of my word.

[GraphicDisorder]

Maybe I'll buy one.  Quick someone tell me I can't afford one of those too.  Lmao. 

Sorry trying to lighten the air. 

[Inkworks]

Alan

I have and noone listens...

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I went looking and I couldn't find it, I found:

Since I have had it I have found about 25 cost savings....and right now my ROI is at about 11 months...I would go into it, but I am not going to share that info...

Sam

it is not only about the print time of the dts it is about your artist time, the set up time, the consumables ect....just like Gilligan laughing and saying why are you measuring tape used per year vs. not using tape...well if I save $40.00 bucks a year on scotch tape x 10 yrs...well tell that is some real money, then you take into account faster burn times, set up time ect...that is where you save money or should i say make more money...if you can set up 1 xtra job a day x 5 days to 52 weeks how much more would you make?  be honest what is the profit on your average job?  200 bucks?  if so you have 200x5 - 1000 x 52 that is 52k in a year...

plus the savings from your artist not having to print film, plus the savings of not paying someone to refile the films...plus the savings from the film cost, plus the list goes on and on....

so there you have it...only doing 1 xtra job a day you have more than paid for it in 1 yr...

BOOOOM!

I'm still having trouble making it work in my head the same way Alan is.

It saves the artist time? Printing to screen is faster than printing to film? Hit print, adjust settings if required in rip and you're off and running in both cases. maybe on a multi head DTS it might be a little faster but that's hand's off time on a film printer anyways, if anything printing direct to screens may be more hands on to load screens onto the machine where I can print 100' of film without touching the machine if need be.

Faster set-ups? A good carrier sheet free FPU and platen jig should easily be just as accurate. both are just jigs for the screen, same as the DTS, the DTS eliminates the need to eyeball the film to a grid, but when looking at .010" weight cross-hatch marks if you can't eyeball +/- .005" in 10 seconds you don't belong in this industry.

I'll buy into the faster exposure times, I'll buy into no pin holes, I'll buy into not having to re-file film, I'll buy into no regi marks, as my FPU requires 2.

I can't see the ROI being as fast as what's being touted unless there were significant problems with the pre-DTS systems in the shop to begin with.

A good non-DTS system should have:
Congruent film printing. ie: nobody has to stand there while film is being generated, so it's not a labour overhead.
A good film file system. If it's over 30 seconds to pull a job's film, it ain't a good system.
A good FPU/platen jig system. The whole idea is to almost eliminate the need for micros. If it's that much worse than DTS, then it ain't good.
A good exposure unit. ie: 80 screens in 80 minutes. If the exposure system is a bottle neck then you'd better be doing more than 400 screens a day if 80/80 is the benchmark.

[inkbrigade]

Guess it's time to jump into this mess. We're on the fence about buying a DTS. Prob gonna pull the trigger on one in the next 6 months if the price is right.

My biggest thing is it's hopefully going to help make registration better so setups will be faster. My wife is a crazy stickler about registration.

I'd really like to see a video with no edits of 3-4 color job. Screens imaged with DTS.
Basically put the screens in the press, tri-loc it, print the first strike off and let's see how well it's registered.

If it's nuts on, i'm sold!

I could give a crap about film storage, imaging speed film costs etc. If i could put screens in the press, tri-loc them and have them ready to print with no micro, this would be all the return on investment i need.

[Inkworks]

I can see the benefit of that, but DTS seems like a really expensive way to make a proper FPU.

[alan802]

Inkworks hit the freaking nail on the head in one sentence.  He's got it.  I know this sounds like some of us are hammering on shops that bought DTS...couldn't be further from the fact.  We will have one and I'm no hypocrite, but here's the deal:  We will not see the ROI some shops have seen because of a lot of different things, I'll leave it at that.  I don't consider myself a business guru, I started my first business when I was 10 years old and have never stopped learning how and how not to do things, but I do consider myself an expert when it comes to production in a screen printing shop.  There is not a process out there that we don't try and do as efficiently as possible and because we are fortunate to have some really great equipment, things run as fast as the human doing the work will allow...in most cases.  I've tailored the shop to not have bottlenecks, to only be limited by the employee doing the work and then trying my best to find the best crew.  I've had better crews in the shop than we do now, and it goes to show you just how hard it is to find good help these days.  I've been through 4 screen techs in the last 6 months and I've hired every type of person and nothing has worked out great so it's a crapshoot.  It's weird, the worst interview we've ever had with a potential employee has turned out to be our greatest asset and those who come in and blow me away with their attitude turn out to be crap.  I'm getting off track here, but I hope those of you who will listen and read this will get something out of it.  DTS is a great tool to have in your shop, but do your homework.  Inkworks said more than a few things that sum it up great, nail on the head my friend.

[screenprintguy]

Mine is on it's way, it totally adds up for me. Anything that can make my life easier, personally, I don't have time to keep farting around with film. I'm not going to hire someone just to play around with all of that crap. We do a higher percentage of new orders than re-orders, and most jobs, for us, are at least 6 colors, if not 8. Yesterday, alone, for,"me", proves that we are making a wise choice. I'm not looking at what the unit costs me, I'm looking at how much time I'm saving on efficiency. We currently have 6 piles of freakin films constantly growing, probably 700 carrier sheets still holding films, and if we were to go and take the time to catalog all of that crap, it would be a couple of full days that someone isn't doing something else that is actually making us money. Now, my point, we do everything, sales, design, seps, ordering, embroidery, screen printing, customer service, accounting, ect, ect, with 3 full time people, 2 part timers. We do the jobs of 8 people on a small staff, and we get it done, and done nicely, so if we can help that along, by investing in a machine, backed with a money back guarantee, I don't see where I could be going wrong. Usually, if you see me posting on these boards, it's while my film printer, is spitting out films, that will then have to be aligned, taped to sheets, before they even touch a screen. If that printing was right on the screen, well, we know the rest of process, and like yesterday, 52 screens, would have gone a lot faster for me. Again, it may not be for every shop, but It definitely looks worth it for us, and like I said yesterday, Rich Hoffman told me straight up, Mike if it's not working out for you, or you don't like it, feel it's a waste ect, I'll take it back. How can I go wrong. Some times numbers are just numbers, my time, and amount of effort and aggravation can out weight a number most of the time. I'm really looking forward to a more, "lock and load" experience on 6 and 8 color jobs. Trust me, if the whole CTS thing is all  hype, I'll be the first one to call it all out, but after talking to several people who own them, I know I'm on the right path.

[GraphicDisorder]

We don't do near as many screens as you guys, and its already on my radar.  TIME SAVINGS is all I need to hear.  I have no problem BUYING my time back, which is what we did with our Auto. 

[screenprintguy]

You are totally right Brandt, kinda the same reason we stepped into an auto when we did. Everyone around me was telling me I was over stepping and could just pull the squeegee more, but in my mind, and what my lower back was telling me was dude, forget the fishing boat for now and buy me a proper tool to do the job easier, more consistent, and in the end faster. It is paid for in full and that investment scored us a huge customer that took us to the next level. Had I stayed with my manual for another year, I would have missed out on them. I just want to be able to do more with what we have right now. We actually thought, well, we could get more done with another auto, but it doesn't end there, and in the end, that's a lot more of an expense, plus now you need more peeps to be on staff to properly use it and we aren't in that position yet. Here again, I'm baby sitting film printing. hahahahah. I'm excited for it to come in and will give it a very fair grading once we have it up and running.

[GraphicDisorder]

You are totally right Brandt, kinda the same reason we stepped into an auto when we did. Everyone around me was telling me I was over stepping and could just pull the squeegee more, but in my mind, and what my lower back was telling me was dude, forget the fishing boat for now and buy me a proper tool to do the job easier, more consistent, and in the end faster. It is paid for in full and that investment scored us a huge customer that took us to the next level. Had I stayed with my manual for another year, I would have missed out on them. I just want to be able to do more with what we have right now. We actually thought, well, we could get more done with another auto, but it doesn't end there, and in the end, that's a lot more of an expense, plus now you need more peeps to be on staff to properly use it and we aren't in that position yet. Here again, I'm baby sitting film printing. hahahahah. I'm excited for it to come in and will give it a very fair grading once we have it up and running.

You are exactly right.  We still don't have the business many would suggest you need for a auto.  I laugh at them.  I have already done in sales volume several times over what it costs and again we are designers that print, not printers that design.  If I can afford it a focused screen printer can too. 

I take the same approach on the DTS or other equipment.  It's not all about if the "math" says it pays for itself in a year or two, it's more about how was the quality of life at the shop and away from it, did it improve it?  I suspect it will improve it, it will certainly save some time!

I am up in the air on a DTS or a new full color printer/plotter.  One of those I suspect will be arriving first of the yearish though.  I am never scared to take a gamble.  This last 2 years has been full of big moves for our business.  I don't intend to stop.

[alan802]

I've done many things around the shop to make things "easier".  DTS can do that no doubt, but we are talking about an investment.  I said earlier if you just want to make your life easier then go for the DTS.  It's a math decision for me, a business decision, not a quality of life decision because my quality of life and the employees is pretty damn good.  I agree with both decisions to buy an auto, why print manually 10 hours a day when you can print automatically for 1 hour a day?  I think we can all agree that buying an auto coming from a manual shop and buying a DTS to make things easier are completely different?  If you are treating them the same then I'll just say I'm sorry you're taking that approach and good luck to ya's.  The money you can make with an auto is astronomically larger than what you can make with a DTS. 

If you can afford one and it makes you happy, who am I to say not to buy one?  If it will yield you the ability to do a few more setups per day and you have the work to fill that extra production then go for it.  Smaller shops with DTS will be the exception and not the rule until the ROI makes sense, but to each their own.

I'm not saying that Mike is making a bad decision in buying one, I'm saying you're not going to get a one year ROI if you pay more than about 15-20K for one and do less than 25-30 screens per day.  So please don't take offense Mike and Brandt because I'm not buying one and I'm outspoken about it.  I like you guys and what you've done, the reason I'm passionate about this is not because of what you guys are saying or buying, has nothing to do with your decision to go DTS.  But you should understand that there are no games or pencil whipping of my numbers and my assessment that the ROI isn't there for our shop and probably not for other shops our size and smaller is not speculative. 

Big shops buy DTS for the ROI, small shops can buy them to make things a little easier and a little faster, no problems with any of that.  If you've got the money, need, want or all of them then buy whichever one you want.  We don't fit into either of those molds and that's the way it is.

[ebscreen]

This industry also seems to have a lot of nut swaggering bravado unfortunately.
Not unlike the Ford F450's I see collecting pallets for cash nowadays, beware.

[Socalfmf]

yep..I am convincing myself each time I make a trip to make a deposit or look at my bank account!  thanks!

[Homer]

Pierre had mentioned a loss of detail, are the rips for a DTS less accurate or in depth as Film maker / accurip? i would assume they would produce a better halftone due to the light scatter on milky film, undercutting of light and so on? . . .

have to agree with Brandt here, ROI? - who the hell cares. load a screen instead of a piece of film - my life just became easier. . .that's why we bought a more efficient auto. .I don't care how long it takes to get my money back. . .less headaches.

can you wash off the image once applied to a screen, lets say you eff'd up and needed to change the image for whatever reason. . .sam?

[Socalfmf]

Jay

once the image is on there it is on there...so no you cannot wipe off and redo...

again...if I had to do it over I would have bought it sooner...but then again well you know...

sam