Author Topic: Reducing Ink  (Read 2032 times)

Offline Ryan

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Reducing Ink
« on: January 11, 2013, 08:11:31 PM »
What does everyone do/not do to there inks. Having a bitch of time getting stuff right. I'm using Epic Equalizer to make my inks. I know I'm having other issues besides just ink, but I figure I might as well start there. I was having "pitting" issues, where the flash seems to still show through the top colors and could not for the life of me get coverage. I did drop down in mesh (230 to a 110) which helped but I still had to multi-print to get the coverage I wanted. Any helpful hints someone wants to share?
Thanks in Advance


Offline JBLUE

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 10:28:53 PM »
What pantone colors are you having problems with? We had problems after switching over to Epic pigments from the PC. Your not the only one that has these issues. We went away from Wilflex because of this for our colors. We still use their whites but the Epic breaks down way to fast on press on the auto and becomes transparent or shifts to badly. Thickeners would help for a little and that was it. We went through every base. We had the best luck with amazing base with opacity but it was still not good once the ink started t mechanically break down. On the problem colors shops with big presses run two screens with the same color and flash between them. Some shops run double underbase screens but that can actually make it worse on some of the colors that break down really quickly. Its a known issue for sure.
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Offline alan802

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 11:35:22 PM »
Holy S, this is not good.  You say it's a known issue and I guess that's good but that sounds like a total failure.  How could this happen with them?  Running double UB's and two screens for one color to get coverage and opacity?....
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Offline Ryan

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 10:54:22 AM »
colors were 281c and 186c. The blue was the disaster. I went around twice to get the covergae I wanted, worked but it would have been one time around and done. It was a pretty big graphic with a lot of coverage. I know blues can be translucent, but this wasn't pretty. I did try hitting the underbase twice (P/F/P) but yes it didn't help, made the blue lighter because it was going on a more solid white. I may have to revisit an opaque system like union again though I didn't have any luck mixing their inks.

Offline pwalsh

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 02:57:46 PM »
Ryan & Jason:  Sorry to hear that you guys have been having such trouble with coverage and printability with the Wilflex Equalizer color formulation system.  I have “Rung-The-Bell” with the folks at PolyOne Wilflex to make them aware of your  concerns. 

Jason, I have reached out to Tina Laguerra with a request for her to set up a meeting for you with the Nazdar SourceOne and Wilflex Technical Applications Specialists at the Long Beach Imprinted Sportswear Show next week to adress these ink performance concenrs. 

Ryan, I wasn’t able to determine which area of the country that you are located to know if you might be heading to the Long Beach next week.  If you’d like to email or PM me with your contact information I will arrange for a Tech Support resource to review this issue with you directly. 

Thank you both for this feedback, and for the opportunity to address your concerns.
Peter G. Walsh - Executive Vice President
The M&R Companies - Roselle, IL USA
Email:  peter.walsh@mrprint.com
Office 847-410-3445 / Cell 913-579-6662

Offline ZooCity

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 04:50:14 PM »
Little more info?  It sounds like you are running Epic?  But I see mention of amazing base which I believe is classic....problem might be coming from mixing the NP and classic inks perhaps, or, from simply making the shift.  NP inks likely print and behave very differently from phthatlate ones, which I have no experience with but there was a reason they used phthatlate plasticizers for years and on-press performance was likely part of the reasoning.

I've never had an issue with our Epic PC system and the various bases.  We use the standard Epic mixing base for most mixes and I use some of the pre-mix spots as well.

I am a huge advocate of minimizing the additives you run with the Epic inks.  Using the std mixing base they perform very well WOW with zero modification.  The WOW problems I've had are process related as we had them with QCM inks as well.  Honestly, the only true additive that we use in the system is 1-2% of the QEC Viscosity Buster in certain Performance base inks and even that is rare.

But this is PC system, not Equalizers.  When I have a very bright, clean blue (you know, the ones in them middle of the pantone book pages) for instance, I'm going to use the IMS to mix at maximum pigment load to ensure the coverage I need.  This will reduce WOW performance sometimes and there is a balance there.  Pure, deep blues are always a challenge to some degree and will require a thicker ink film to look good, they are naturally translucent.   Colin (ex qcm tech) had a great analogy of the pacific ocean and how the water appears clear in our hand but vivid blue when you are looking at miles of depth with all that light refracting through it.  This may or may not be scientifically correct but it puts it in perspective.

You can't adjust pigment load as much with the Eq system but it's still a feature of the system....if you aren't mixing NP and classic bases and are doing the rest correctly I might suggest the issue could and I stress could be in the formulation of those eq pigments if other users are seeing the same. 

I would look at the ink formulation last, but look into it none the less.  I've found Wilflex to be incredibly reliable and consistent, every bucket we buy.  This is why we ditched qcm, for consistency and I've been very happy with it.   That being said, everything has gone a little haywire in this "recession" and polyone, as with all suppliers, may be having a wild ride trying to get consistent raw materials which could be throwing off the formulation of some inks.  If that's the case, I would be confident they will correct it.  They keep very reliable batch tracking from what I've seen.

Last off, I see you are talking about "pitting"- looks sort of like an orange peel?  I've found this to typically be an issue with over/under flash and cool down but certain inks tend to do it more than others for sure.  I last experienced the issue with qcm, not wfx so the pitting thing is likely a plastisol issue generally speaking.

Offline JBLUE

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 03:01:44 PM »
Zoo thanks for the post. We never have the problem on the manual only the auto. Its a mechanical breakdown of the ink itself. 21 C, 123 C. 225 C are just a few off the top of my head that I can spit out are big ones we have trouble with. It does not matter what base we use. We have used them all that they make. Amazing base was suggested by the lab to help combat the shear issue of the ink. It yielded the best results but it still was not good enough.
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We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid...... Ben Franklin

Offline JBLUE

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »
Ryan & Jason:  Sorry to hear that you guys have been having such trouble with coverage and printability with the Wilflex Equalizer color formulation system.  I have “Rung-The-Bell” with the folks at PolyOne Wilflex to make them aware of your  concerns. 

Jason, I have reached out to Tina Laguerra with a request for her to set up a meeting for you with the Nazdar SourceOne and Wilflex Technical Applications Specialists at the Long Beach Imprinted Sportswear Show next week to adress these ink performance concenrs. 

Ryan, I wasn’t able to determine which area of the country that you are located to know if you might be heading to the Long Beach next week.  If you’d like to email or PM me with your contact information I will arrange for a Tech Support resource to review this issue with you directly. 

Thank you both for this feedback, and for the opportunity to address your concerns.


Thanks Peter. I will be there...... Look forward to meeting you if you will be there.
www.inkwerksspd.com

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid...... Ben Franklin

Offline RICK STEFANICK

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 05:01:03 PM »
ok I'll say it. could you possibly be over flashing young man?
Specializing in shop assessment's, flow and efficiency

Offline Ryan

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Re: Reducing Ink
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 05:14:16 PM »
That is what I am thinking. The more I heard from everyone, the more I think it has less to do with ink and more to do with the other failures (flash, mesh, print order. squeegee angle/speed/pressure etc.)