Author Topic: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)  (Read 138164 times)

Offline screenprintguy

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #285 on: November 30, 2016, 01:54:09 PM »
I Image ST, had the original Epson based I-Image first then upgraded, you WILL NOT REGRET IT!!!!
Evolutionary Screen Printing & Embroidery
3521 Waterfield Parkway Lakeland, Fl. 33803 www.evolutionaryscreenprinting.com


Offline ZooCity

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #286 on: November 30, 2016, 02:42:45 PM »
I couldn't find any resolution information on the I image units but, presuming you were comparing 600dpi to 600dpi, wax to screen my understanding is that you'll find the wax dots a little smoother.   Wax units do not use multiple heads which is going to make the inherently more accurate than a multi-head printer but, barring a bi-d mode, makes wax slower than say a 3 head inkjet unit.   Imaging speed may or may not be important in your shop.

This difference may be inconsequential or important depending on your needs.   

My recommendation is seek out a unit that has the best RIP workflow and the highest resolution option.   I feel that 600 is too low for screen masking and 900 should be the min res for this application with 1200 or higher preferable for some work. 

For us it came down to workflow, imaging size, footprint and resolution more than ink v. wax. 

Offline TCT

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #287 on: November 30, 2016, 02:48:02 PM »


I couldn't find any resolution information on the I image units

I'm still quite new to our upgrade I-IMAGE but we print at 900*1200 if that helps!
Alex

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Offline cbjamel

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #288 on: November 30, 2016, 02:50:35 PM »
Email bimmrider he has had wax just went to inkjet says big difference.

Shane

Offline DannyGruninger

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #289 on: November 30, 2016, 05:39:04 PM »
We had inkjet(Lawson and M&r i image) and just switched to wax. Stay tuned next week I will be posting about our switch.
Danny Gruninger
Denver Print House / Lakewood Colorado
https://www.instagram.com/denverprinthouse

Offline screenprintguy

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #290 on: November 30, 2016, 05:47:33 PM »
One thing that can't be disputed about inkjet CTS I-Image ST and up from M&R is that Danny won a crap ton of awards with screens all produced on the InkJet soooooooo, like mentioned above, go for what fits you best, but those awards speak volumes on the quality of screens being produced from the I-Image units. ;D
Evolutionary Screen Printing & Embroidery
3521 Waterfield Parkway Lakeland, Fl. 33803 www.evolutionaryscreenprinting.com

Offline dirkdiggler

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #291 on: November 30, 2016, 06:23:17 PM »
One thing that can't be disputed about inkjet CTS I-Image ST and up from M&R is that Danny won a crap ton of awards with screens all produced on the InkJet soooooooo, like mentioned above, go for what fits you best, but those awards speak volumes on the quality of screens being produced from the I-Image units. ;D


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Offline ZooCity

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #292 on: November 30, 2016, 08:25:39 PM »
One thing that can't be disputed about inkjet CTS I-Image ST and up from M&R is that Danny won a crap ton of awards with screens all produced on the InkJet soooooooo, like mentioned above, go for what fits you best, but those awards speak volumes on the quality of screens being produced from the I-Image units. ;D

You could say the same about film honestly.  The masking medium/mechanism needs to be at an acceptable level of resolution and d max but it doesn't make a print work, that all happens up and down the line imo. 

There are side by side's out there that would show you the opposite regarding wax v. ink but you can make any one thing look a little better than another if you want.  True side by side comparisons are hard to come by. 

Thx Alex, that sounds like a sweet spot resolution and could be a part of why some rave about ink CTS perhaps?  Aside from Kiwo's latest offering none of the wax units run higher than 600dpi and wax can outperform ink I think at that lower res, it kind of softens up the dot shape, but all units will perform best at 900dpi and up.

Offline bimmridder

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #293 on: December 01, 2016, 09:28:16 AM »
Let's see if I can do this. Trying to attach a picture of some half tones on a wax machine. (I have both, so I'm not saying one is better than the other) This is a 65 LPI dot on a 355-31 mesh. Can't tell you the percentage dot, but you can guess as well as I can. There is a line through the halftone, which is why I took the picture. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pww7suw04yahtae/Jpg_20160107172404.jpg?dl=0

Again, both types of machines have their strengths and weaknesses. You have to decide which is better for you. Almost ANY CTS is better than film, in my opinion.
Barth Gimble

Printing  (not well) for 35 years. Strong in licensed sports apparel. Plastisol printer. Located in Cedar Rapids, IA

Offline screenprintguy

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #294 on: December 01, 2016, 11:01:26 AM »
One thing that can't be disputed about inkjet CTS I-Image ST and up from M&R is that Danny won a crap ton of awards with screens all produced on the InkJet soooooooo, like mentioned above, go for what fits you best, but those awards speak volumes on the quality of screens being produced from the I-Image units. ;D

You could say the same about film honestly.  The masking medium/mechanism needs to be at an acceptable level of resolution and d max but it doesn't make a print work, that all happens up and down the line imo. 

There are side by side's out there that would show you the opposite regarding wax v. ink but you can make any one thing look a little better than another if you want.  True side by side comparisons are hard to come by. 

I totally get your point! My point was, for the guy asking, and anyone looking into CTS, the fact that Inkjet CTS machines produce award winning shirts should put anyone at ease about the wonder or worry if the inkjet is "good". We can get super technical under a microscope about anything, but honestly, when was the last time anyone's customers said, hey, I want to see the dots on your stencil before you print my shirts, and I want to see them under the microscope? And ifffff, someone has a customer like that, they may want to run for the hills because that's the customer that is insane. I understand that even microscopic differences eventually translate to larger final result differences, but in this case, even judges at shows aren't seeing any difference in final prints, if they did, the shirts wouldn't win. I mean at the end of the day, that is what we are right, t-shirt printers. There are plennnnnty of shops out there with the best of the best of the best pumping out crap, so it's really up to the individuals to make that final difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, like Dave said, their are points on both sides, what I'm saying is, like anything in our industry, performance, reliability and support are KEY when investing in a tool that you need to rely on day to day. M&R saw that when starting out with Epson based units and re-wrote what they were doing by going with a "ground up" design for that performance and reliability reason. I can't say that about other machines simply based off of other people's experiences having to wait weeks on end for parts or someone to show up to fix ect. Maybe some companies have improved that, but it's a huge consideration on what becomes such a HUGE part of a shop's day to day operation. No screens, no shirts, that's the bottom line. So, making sure you have that support, like I said is key. I personally feel a lot more secure having a machine that is supported by the company who I bought it from, who makes it themselves rather than something labeled over and over by a brand that relabels for a company that was built in another country by another company. If local support and parts are always on hand for other brands, then that's awesome, but how do you find that out really? At any rate, like TH said in his resurrection of this thread, he wanted individual opinions and experiences so I don't want any of my comments to seem arguementiive, I'm just pointing out my view and experience being with CTS for over 4 years now.  :)

Thx Alex, that sounds like a sweet spot resolution and could be a part of why some rave about ink CTS perhaps?  Aside from Kiwo's latest offering none of the wax units run higher than 600dpi and wax can outperform ink I think at that lower res, it kind of softens up the dot shape, but all units will perform best at 900dpi and up.
Evolutionary Screen Printing & Embroidery
3521 Waterfield Parkway Lakeland, Fl. 33803 www.evolutionaryscreenprinting.com

Offline ZooCity

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #295 on: December 01, 2016, 02:45:49 PM »
I'm with ya screenprintguy, any unit will perform well in almost any environment, no need to shy away from either technology I'd say.   Pick which unit/brand you like and enjoy, any of them beat an epson and film. 

However, I would have to disagree that M&R built the i image "ground up", it's clearly based upon the lawson, right down to the rip, and that core unit is clearly made by another group apart from both those companies.  Same goes for the Olec, Douthitt, Kiwo I-jet I Exile Spyder I and II- basic chassis and setup is made by one company in all cases.  It's what each company downstream does to improve, develop and support their model that makes the difference between them.   So with that said I do agree that that's where the M&R shines- service.   But it's not like they invented it, none of the offerings were ground up built that I'm aware of but were heavily re-built and improved in some cases.  If they were truly built from scratch they'd likely cost even more than they do now. 

Your available offerings in the 60k cts range right now boil down to:

Lawson/M&R Ricoh printhead ink units, 1200dpi (is that the max?), 1-3 printheads

Douthitt/Exile Fuji printhead wax units, 600dpi (current functional max res), 1 printhead, bi-d option on Exile units.

Kiwo XTS Xerox printhead wax units  1200dpi max, 1 printhead, not sure about bi-d but with 880 nozzles might not be necessary.  Another major brand will be offering a version of it as well, not sure if either are out of beta yet or not.

Offline blue moon

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #296 on: December 01, 2016, 03:14:12 PM »
I'm with ya screenprintguy, any unit will perform well in almost any environment, no need to shy away from either technology I'd say.   Pick which unit/brand you like and enjoy, any of them beat an epson and film. 

However, I would have to disagree that M&R built the i image "ground up", it's clearly based upon the lawson, right down to the rip, and that core unit is clearly made by another group apart from both those companies.  Same goes for the Olec, Douthitt, Kiwo I-jet I Exile Spyder I and II- basic chassis and setup is made by one company in all cases.  It's what each company downstream does to improve, develop and support their model that makes the difference between them.   So with that said I do agree that that's where the M&R shines- service.   But it's not like they invented it, none of the offerings were ground up built that I'm aware of but were heavily re-built and improved in some cases.  If they were truly built from scratch they'd likely cost even more than they do now. 

Your available offerings in the 60k cts range right now boil down to:

Lawson/M&R Ricoh printhead ink units, 1200dpi (is that the max?), 1-3 printheads

Douthitt/Exile Fuji printhead wax units, 600dpi (current functional max res), 1 printhead, bi-d option on Exile units.

Kiwo XTS Xerox printhead wax units  1200dpi max, 1 printhead, not sure about bi-d but with 880 nozzles might not be necessary.  Another major brand will be offering a version of it as well, not sure if either are out of beta yet or not.

I started printing films with a Xerox wax printer and the problem I was running into was that the ink deposit was domed and made the edges thin enough to let the light through. Obviously, this was with regular wax rather than UV blocking stuff designed to burn screens, but it is something I would look into before buying.
On the other hand, any (most? all?) inkjet printers use ink that dries in the heads and requires higher humidity to avoid clogging. This automatically takes it out of the dark room as they need to be operated at lower relative humidity. If your CTS needs to go into the the dark room, this could be a problem.

pierre
Yes, we've won our share of awards, and yes, I've tested stuff and read the scientific papers, but ultimately take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt! So if you are looking for trouble, just do as I say or even better, do something I said years ago!

Offline bimmridder

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #297 on: December 01, 2016, 04:30:58 PM »
Maybe I'm just lucky, but all three CTS machines I've had have been in my screen room/darkroom. Right now, and for the last eight years I have been running a wax machine (and three years previously in another location), and for the last three (?) I have been running an ink machine as well, all in my screen room. I do try to control the temperature and humidity throughout the year. I can say though, that I have never experienced  clogs worth mentioning. Maybe a few purges and auto cleans, but beyond that, no problems. Again, maybe it's just a dumb guy's luck. It is a balancing act trying to keep humidity stable, and temps where I want them during cold dry winter months and hot humid summer months. I have an in wall PTAC unit for A/C and heat, a dehumidifier, and yes, even a humidifier. So it can all be done in the same room....in my shop.
Barth Gimble

Printing  (not well) for 35 years. Strong in licensed sports apparel. Plastisol printer. Located in Cedar Rapids, IA

Offline TCT

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #298 on: December 01, 2016, 09:10:31 PM »


On the other hand, any (most? all?) inkjet printers use ink that dries in the heads and requires higher humidity to avoid clogging. This automatically takes it out of the dark room as they need to be operated at lower relative humidity. If your CTS needs to go into the the dark room, this could be a problem.

pierre

I had thought the same thing Pierre. I had asked in a thread a while back because we were putting our CTS 4' from the whole room dehumidifier. Both Dan and I I believe Mr. Hoffman chimed in and said there was nothing to worry about.
Alex

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www.twincitytees.com

Offline screenprintguy

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Re: eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)
« Reply #299 on: December 02, 2016, 10:10:08 AM »
my CTS stays in a low humidity room running a/c and dehumidifier, as long as you cap the head after use, you shouldn't have problems. I can't say this for the EPSON units as they do it differently but with the ST Richo head units, cap it and you are good.
Evolutionary Screen Printing & Embroidery
3521 Waterfield Parkway Lakeland, Fl. 33803 www.evolutionaryscreenprinting.com