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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Denis Kolar on April 20, 2012, 08:10:59 AM
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Called a screen company few days ago because I needed screens for this weekend.
Me: Can you tell me what is an average tension of your screens.
Him: Oh, we do a great job. We stretch them up to 38-40n easily. But with the different mesh you get different tension.
Me: I'm asking because I wat to switch my screen suppliers because I was getting screens in the low teens for 200 and 230's.
Him: Do not worry, ours will not be that low.
Sure, got them yesterday. I ordered 14 of 20x24 and 4 of 23x31. Different mesh counts, some 155, most of them 200 and some 230.
155 were around 20n
200 were between 14-16n
230 were below 14n
WTF is wrong with these people, is it that hard to find a good screens? Do you guys get better tensions that this on aluminum statics?
I was going to keep the 155's and try to replace the rest, after first reclaim, they will go down even more.
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Did you get the reps name? You didn't get what was sold to you. Is it not worth your time to call. Don't you think they would refund part of the price? Or just sell the screens to a hobbyist on CL. :-) I say all this but I would prolly just eat it even though it's a bitter pill to swallow. I use static aluminums right now, can you share your experience once you find a solid and reasonably quick supplier.
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Is your meter new/properly calibrated recently? Are you getting references to these companies that do a bad job?
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and that is why i love retens...you have the control...
sam
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Back in the day when I was using statics, I bought from at least 4 different companies and I always asked them if they paid attention to tension and told them what I didn't want, but I never got a static that was over 21 newtons out of probably 200 screens. I always got the same lines you did, our screens are 30 newtons or whatever they'd say, and they were always 12-17 newtons, regardless of mesh count, regardless of where I bought them. At one point about a year ago I went through the 200 or so statics I had and I only kept the ones that were above 17 newtons and I have about 10 left, and 2 of those 10 are 20 newtons with the rest being 17.
I think the best bet for static users would to be to pay a premium for a really good open mesh count like the murakami smartmesh S threads that don't relax as much as most other manufacturers and then find someone who actually understands what you want/need in a screen. I'd also have an understanding with that supplier that you aren't going to accept them if they are below your standard. It is totally possible to have static alums with S thread mesh in the mid 20's, but it takes some time to get that and most companies stretching screens can't take that extra time because 90% of their buyers don't have a clue what tension can do for them or they don't care.
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I just got of the phone from them.
He said that they try to stretch all of them to about 20, and then n they drop down to about 17.
He said that if I have some that are at 14, that they would gladly replace them with the new ones if he can get them to about 17-20 and if I'm OK with that.
He'll call me back in a few hours.
Tension meter was calibrated last year, I'll see if I could compare it to someones locally in a next few days. I put it on to the glass and made sure that it is on 0 just before I checked the screens.
Sam, I know what you are saying, but no room for retensionable in my basement. If I ever go bigger and get the place, I will definitely go that route.
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We are fortunate we have a guy a cpl buildings down that stretches are statics and he pulses the crap out of them and they come to us high 20's with very little drop after work hardening. He does a good job for us because he has our image setter which we stopped using years ago so for the image setter he does beautiful statics that rivals retens and he also provides us with over sized films when needed.
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I think inkman has got the right setup for statics. You probably need:
- A supplier with good to higher end stretching equipment.
- One who is willing to provide premium frames v. just ripping them out for the masses. Thin thread mesh is delicate, expensive and pulsing and/or stage tensioning takes far longer than what is likely the standard process for most screens. If you really want a work hardened screen out of the box, request they put a smooth, heavy flat piece on the mesh during the last stage before gluing and then rest the frames before shipping to confirm tension.
- Someone who honestly understands mesh variables.
- Good, properly welded and flat frames, otherwise, why bother with all the extra stretching process?
It's hard to get too down on these guys, they are just making what most shops out there want. They don't understand the higher end spec for screens because they've never had to. That doesn't mean they won't be willing to do it for the right customer though.
I'm curious to see what the cost of frames built to the above spec would be or if anyone would even be willing to do it. With the set of S meshes, 24-26 n/cm is the max/standard for most of the counts with just a couple that can ride up to 32 n/cm. I find the roller frames to be a big advantage as every 2 n/cm does count at these lower tensions and it's worth the effort. At the same time, if a supplier could offer frames that did in fact stabilize at 24 I'd have to very seriously consider it.
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I think inkman has got the right setup for statics. You probably need:
- A supplier with good to higher end stretching equipment.
- One who is willing to provide premium frames v. just ripping them out for the masses. Thin thread mesh is delicate, expensive and pulsing and/or stage tensioning takes far longer than what is likely the standard process for most screens. If you really want a work hardened screen out of the box, request they put a smooth, heavy flat piece on the mesh during the last stage before gluing and then rest the frames before shipping to confirm tension.
- Someone who honestly understands mesh variables.
- Good, properly welded and flat frames, otherwise, why bother with all the extra stretching process?
It's hard to get too down on these guys, they are just making what most shops out there want. They don't understand the higher end spec for screens because they've never had to. That doesn't mean they won't be willing to do it for the right customer though.
I'm curious to see what the cost of frames built to the above spec would be or if anyone would even be willing to do it. With the set of S meshes, 24-26 n/cm is the max/standard for most of the counts with just a couple that can ride up to 32 n/cm. I find the roller frames to be a big advantage as every 2 n/cm does count at these lower tensions and it's worth the effort. At the same time, if a supplier could offer frames that did in fact stabilize at 24 I'd have to very seriously consider it.
Xenon does all of the above and we were 2-4 dollars more a frame. Brent Fisk is the most knowledgeable man on mesh I have ever talked to. Xenon supplies mesh to many different industries that have many different requirements. Our Textile mesh is the proper micron for each mesh to get the best print available.
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Xenon does all of our static remesh and has for as long as i can remember. We ask them to stretch statics to 25 and let them sit for a day or two before shipping. Seems like a lot of them pop in transit when they are 25+
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I've thought about getting into the premium static frame/mesh business, but after talking to the main supplier here in town, he told me that not one single customer complains about the tension level of his screens. I had him stretch me up two static alum 135/48 Murakami Smartmesh so I could test my theory on where we could get them to settle in at. He dropped them off one day and as soon as I touched it I thought it was a joke, I put the tension meter on it and it was 9 newtons!!! I then asked him WTF???? are you doing here I can't use these screens. Well, turns out his meter was broken and he was just stretching frames up to whatever he felt was right and that was good enough for all the other customers. So my test didn't work out, but when I stretch an S thread Murakami it seems to lose a lot less tension than it's competition, on initial tension and one subsequent retensions. They are essentially work hardened after 2-3 runs through the gauntlet. That's what got me thinking about stretching statics with this mesh. Even if you get some mesh up to 30 and then glue it to a frame, within 1 hour it's going to be 22, then after a few runs through production it's going to be in the teens. The key will be if someone is willing to pulse the mesh or work it over a little before they glue it.
I guess Sonny's guy is doing it the right way. By the way, I haven't stretched up that mesh you sent me yet, too damn busy spinning the auto to worry about stretching screens.
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...I have often thought of trying to aquire a stretcher (or maybe a large roller frame that my statics will fit inside) and just doing my own screens. I figure I dont need to remesh all that many frames, so I could just pulse/ retension on the machine itself until the tension seemed high enough and some of the tension loss minimized. In other words, I could afford to have mesh on the stretcher for a week or whatever before gluing to the frame.
...what I am wondering is, how much tension can we hope for before the GLUE fails? Anyone know?
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i think the mesh would rip befor the glue fails if the frames are preped properly..
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I'm returning these and trying Sonny's.
If they are bad.............
Just kidding bud, I'll give you a call on Monday.
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The only way to get a good static that has very little drop in tension from the stretcher is if he uses some weights while pulsing the mesh up, this simulates work hardening. We are fortunate to have someone that does it but in no way will it be norm for the larger companies that stretch, they use big massive machines that roll out the mesh over a bunch of screens at one time then glue down, they could not afford to go the extra mile and make them primo, unless they offer standard and higher end stretching services which i never seen.
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The only way to get a good static that has very little drop in tension from the stretcher is if he uses some weights while pulsing the mesh up, this simulates work hardening. We are fortunate to have someone that does it but in no way will it be norm for the larger companies that stretch, they use big massive machines that roll out the mesh over a bunch of screens at one time then glue down, they could not afford to go the extra mile and make them primo, unless they offer standard and higher end stretching services which i never seen.
We not only do that with a patented system, we do it 1400 times a day. We start from scratch in raw materials and cut (Wood) and glue or cut and weld (Alum.). Any size any amount all are made this way. Brent has invented many ways of stretching screens over the years. Some he kept, others he sold (Newman Roller Table). Our screens are guaranteed to be the best or we buy them back.
I know that I am employed by Brent but believe me when I say that he knows more about mesh, screens and stretching than anyone I know. Joe Clarke excluded.
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Sonny I am sure your employer is top notch and hjas great screens, I am only speaking of my unique situation. Our guy makes custom screens all day long for the graphics industry with specs way above anything textile requires, he is a master screen maker that also custom coats and exposes for very unique applications. The screens he makes for customers all over the world literally have to be top notch right out the door with very specific tensions and work hardness, mesh angles, oem etc. He has been in the industry probably forty years plus now.
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I have been using Xenon screens for a while now and I love them. The tension is good (I don't have a meter but they are tight). The only problem that I have is a couple of frames weren't welded properly so I have a little sloshing with them. Can't find where they are leaking, but the chemical doesn't leak out once it goes in.
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Sonny I am sure your employer is top notch and hjas great screens, I am only speaking of my unique situation. Our guy makes custom screens all day long for the graphics industry with specs way above anything textile requires, he is a master screen maker that also custom coats and exposes for very unique applications. The screens he makes for customers all over the world literally have to be top notch right out the door with very specific tensions and work hardness, mesh angles, oem etc. He has been in the industry probably forty years plus now.
We too make screens for the graphic side as well as screens for the automotive industry as well as many other industries.
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Ok sonny are we having a pissing contest or something?
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Ok sonny are we having a pissing contest or something?
No. I am happy that you have someone close who knows what they are doing. We go back way too far for pissing contests. I am glad that you mentioned the steps that your guy oes through as an educated consumer only makes the suppliers better. Have a great weekend.
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I got tired of dealing with the static frames, always had crappy tension. Get Newmans.
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Same here, except we went shurloc. We do keep a couple statics around just to remind us how much of a difference higher tension makes.
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statics work just fine for us. darn, we ran a 4cp job a couple weeks ago and had to use 2 wood 305s and the job looked killer.great seps, emulsion and inks and 2- 13 newton wood frames. just sayin.