TSB
screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: jerryperrish on February 24, 2018, 02:09:48 PM
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I know a lot of you on here talk very highly of S-mesh screens so I recently decided grab a few. Is there anything different in the way you work with these screens? At first, I was having an issue with exposure. It seems like they were underexposed, so I bumped up my time. With that I'm getting better results, but still the emulsion just doesn't seem as "secure" on the mesh as a normal screen? (I do degrease and post expose) Even when it comes to reclaiming, it just seems like the emulsion will flake off in chunks, rather than dissolve like it does with regular screens.
Just trying to crack this code here. I would love some advice if anyone has it!
PS. I'm using a cryocoat emulsion, that I've been pretty happy with for the last few years.
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At first, I was having an issue with exposure. It seems like they were underexposed, so I bumped up my time. With that I'm getting better results, but still the emulsion just doesn't seem as "secure" on the mesh as a normal screen? (I do degrease and post expose) Even when it comes to reclaiming, it just seems like the emulsion will flake off in chunks, rather than dissolve like it does with regular screens.
Just trying to crack this code here. I would love some advice if anyone has it!
PS. I'm using a cryocoat emulsion, that I've been pretty happy with for the last few years.
I'm in the same boat as you. I use Saati PHU, which is Cryocoat pretty much, and have had problems with it adhering to the mesh. I also degrease and ensure they're dry, etc. before coating. Cant' say I've found a solution yet other than to increase my exposure time a little bit. I used to Coat 2/2 and still had problems. Now 1/2 is my norm.
Also BE CAREFUL with them. I'm a smaller shop and it seems sometimes if we sneeze the wrong way the mesh tears. We've gotten all our from Spot Color and regular screens too. Last week I put my tension meter on the S mesh and they were stretched to 35 Newtons (20x24 Statics)! S Mesh is supposed to usually be no higher than 28. This is probably why they'd been popping so easily. I've had them tear on press if there was too much lint on the pallet and printed over it, and I'm not using a ton of pressure either. I need to figure something out for screens. I've been happy with Spot Color, their prices and service is great! But, the Saati Mesh they put on there is the cheapest Saati makes. Super tough, but the open area % is waaay low, and thread diameter is really high. I'm not necessarily wanting to get all S Mesh with my current location, but need an option that better than Saait HiTex Yellow 158 with 64 micron thread diameter and only 32% open area. Joe Clarke referred to it as "printing through a plastic sheet." To put that in perspective, a Murakami S Mesh 150 Yellow has a thread diameter of 48 Microns and an open area of 51%!
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we print manually lots of 180 s mesh, roller frames, 25 - 28 Nm checked and re-tensioned regular, Ulano Orange with absolutely no issues. While the mesh is more delicate than the norm really not having any problems in any part of the process.
mooseman
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we print manually lots of 180 s mesh, roller frames, 25 - 28 Nm checked and re-tensioned regular, Ulano Orange with absolutely no issues. While the mesh is more delicate than the norm really not having any problems in any part of the process.
mooseman
Are you guys using the ms-2 degreaser? supposed to help adhesion.
shane
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Biversion - Yeah. I actually generally coat 2/1 and even switched to 1/1 on these screens. (I also bought them from spot color supply)
cbjamel - I've always just used simple green. Who makes ms-2? Is that a saati product?
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Biversion - Yeah. I actually generally coat 2/1 and even switched to 1/1 on these screens. (I also bought them from spot color supply)
cbjamel - I've always just used simple green. Who makes ms-2? Is that a saati product?
I also use simple green. Just switched to easiway 701 though. I thought the 2/2 would help as I'd coat shirt side, ink side, shirt side, ink side to ensure the emulsion was really worked through the mesh and still had difficulty. It was almost like I needed to coat and try and use them 2-3 times before I would get good adhesion and stencils.
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we print manually lots of 180 s mesh, roller frames, 25 - 28 Nm checked and re-tensioned regular, Ulano Orange with absolutely no issues. While the mesh is more delicate than the norm really not having any problems in any part of the process.
mooseman
Same except using Cryocoat, instead of Ulano, and no problems.
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We had the same issues when we switched to Smesh. We tried a lot of different things, degreasing, screen prep chems, even abrading, thinking that the emulsion just wasn't bonding with the mesh properly.
But ultimately we realized that coating the same way was giving us way too much EOM. When I finally got a gauge we were up in the 50% range. All that open area can hold a lot of emulsion.
So we started switching around our coating methods and even tried out a new scoop coater and we were able to get our EOM back down to the high teens / low 20s.
There's a lot of variables that effect eom, besides the emulsion itself and how many coats per side. Also what kind of scoop coater, sharp side, round side, how fast or slow you pull it, how much emulsion is in the coater.
As you're adjusting your coating methods, make sure to use an exposure strip calculator and see if you're rinsing out at least a solid 7 and make sure to rub it with your finger on both sides to see if the emulsion really holding on to a 7.
It's definitely a balancing act with all of it. You don't necessarily need an eom gauge, but keep a note pad out and just keep track of your adjustments and results.
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We had the same issues when we switched to Smesh. We tried a lot of different things, degreasing, screen prep chems, even abrading, thinking that the emulsion just wasn't bonding with the mesh properly.
But ultimately we realized that coating the same way was giving us way too much EOM. When I finally got a gauge we were up in the 50% range. All that open area can hold a lot of emulsion.
So we started switching around our coating methods and even tried out a new scoop coater and we were able to get our EOM back down to the high teens / low 20s.
There's a lot of variables that effect eom, besides the emulsion itself and how many coats per side. Also what kind of scoop coater, sharp side, round side, how fast or slow you pull it, how much emulsion is in the coater.
As you're adjusting your coating methods, make sure to use an exposure strip calculator and see if you're rinsing out at least a solid 7 and make sure to rub it with your finger on both sides to see if the emulsion really holding on to a 7.
It's definitely a balancing act with all of it. You don't necessarily need an eom gauge, but keep a note pad out and just keep track of your adjustments and results.
^^^^^ This ^^^^
Stencil thickness is much higher. We coat thin thread 1/1 sharp, and still with our 230/40 & 280/35's EOM is a little higher than I'd like for halftone work. Have been considering trying a lower solids content emulsion, but we are 75% spot color right now and I just don't see that we're missing too much. The high EOM has generally been a good quality for us. Great for fast printing one hit whites on 135/55 & 150/48. Its important to have a good strong light source to get full / complete exposure with the high stencil thickness. If you are getting emulsion haze, its likely under exposed.
Also, reclaim with car wash sponges & always place screens in a rack, no exceptions!
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Al Buffington told me to use for adhesion help.
He is Murakami rep.
Shane
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Al Buffington told me to use for adhesion help.
He is Murakami rep.
Shane
By any chance could you link to where I can find it? I'm happy to give it a shot, but I'm not pulling anything up when searching MS-2 Degreaser
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Also BE CAREFUL with them. I'm a smaller shop and it seems sometimes if we sneeze the wrong way the mesh tears. We've gotten all our from Spot Color and regular screens too. Last week I put my tension meter on the S mesh and they were stretched to 35 Newtons (20x24 Statics)! S Mesh is supposed to usually be no higher than 28. This is probably why they'd been popping so easily. I've had them tear on press if there was too much lint on the pallet and printed over it, and I'm not using a ton of pressure either. I need to figure something out for screens. I've been happy with Spot Color, their prices and service is great!
35 Newton’s would be way out of spec for us. They should be no higher than 28. If that’s the case we owe you some replacement screens. I’ll have scott contact you on Monday, and we can compare tension readings.
Also, if you are looking for more mesh options, we stock some SAATI Hydro, and are looking at bringing in dynamesh.
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As others mentioned, coating 1/1 or even 1/0 will give comfortable rpm to standard mesh depending on emulsion and mesh count. I do coat some low meshes like 83/71 2/1, but that's to make a thick stencil for one hit whites. Basically no pressure needed and the ink falls through the mesh. Prints beautifully.
I dehaze/decrease with 701, coat with sp1400. Zero adhesion issues. My only complaint with 1400 and s mesh is when it's cold the emulsion will crack a bit at the squeegee edges. Fixed by a strip of tape on the substrate side
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[/quote]Are you guys using the ms-2 degreaser? supposed to help adhesion.
shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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No the only degrease we do is with Dawn dish soap and a soft car wash brush.
mooseman
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I dehaze/decrease with 701, coat with sp1400. Zero adhesion issues. My only complaint with 1400 and s mesh is when it's cold the emulsion will crack a bit at the squeegee edges. Fixed by a strip of tape on the substrate side
For eliminating the emulsion cracked edges, I just use 4" pmi tape to eliminate the problem but your solution works also.
I use all s mesh here with cryocoat. For 135's I coat 2/1 dull edge, 150's 2/1 sharp, 200's 2/1 sharp, 225's 1/1 sharp & 280's 1/1 sharp. I was using 2/2 dull on the lower meshes but that was too much with the thin thread. Atleast that's what I think. I don't know if a stronger exposure then my 1200 watt halide would allow me to expose completely through the thicker eom or not.
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I see mentions of MS-2 degreaser in this thread, but wonder. Something new, not on their site?
Murakami's is just labeled MS
http://murakamiscreen.com/products/screen-chemistry-2/degreaser/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/products/screen-chemistry-2/degreaser/)
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I see mentions of MS-2 degreaser in this thread, but wonder. Something new, not on their site?
Murakami's is just labeled MS
[url]http://murakamiscreen.com/products/screen-chemistry-2/degreaser/[/url] ([url]http://murakamiscreen.com/products/screen-chemistry-2/degreaser/[/url])
That is it Frog.
Thanks,
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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Does anyone else notice that their S mesh looks differently when coated? I can tell an S mesh from a standard by the amount of gloss it has. It's more shiny versus the standard mesh which is more matte and transparent (Saati PHU).
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Does anyone else notice that their S mesh looks differently when coated? I can tell an S mesh from a standard by the amount of gloss it has. It's more shiny versus the standard mesh which is more matte and transparent (Saati PHU).
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yes basically because you are most likely getting better EOM on the S mesh and the thinner mesh is deeper in and less influenced by the light your eye sees.
You will kind of see the same thing if you compare a 230 mesh coated screen to a 156 coated screen using the same coating process on both. The 230 will be more transparent simply because there is less emulsion captured in the mesh and the mesh itself is somewhat thinner relative to the 156 mesh.
mooseman
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Hello Al here from Murakami.
Many have pointed out that S Mesh from Murakami achieves more EOM than a similar mesh count with a thicker thread. So also mentioned here, use the sharp coating edge on S mesh, 1:2 at the very most, or 1:1 for less EOM if you are having trouble exposing details. For Spot color try a 1:1 dull edge.
MS Degreaser can be ordered through our distributors and drop shipped if they do not have it. If your Murakami distributor doesn't want to drop ship you can order it directly.
800.562.3534.
I also have an employee hand out/poster on how to handle S mesh if you would like one. Just PM me.
The other main area of difference in Murakami S Mesh vs any other mesh is retained tensions. Longer print life at optimum tension is worth every penny. Accumulated elongation is another. As mesh warms up during the print it can elongate as well on top of the forces that it' under already. It's called Smartmesh due to "mesh memory", the ability to come back to it's original position stroke after stroke. Sorry for the sales pitch, but the phrase "mesh is mesh" is highly inaccurate and something I hear often, not in this thread, but it deserves some research.
Al
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Hello Al here from Murakami.
Many have pointed out that S Mesh from Murakami achieves more EOM than a similar mesh count with a thicker thread. So also mentioned here, use the sharp coating edge on S mesh, 1:2 at the very most, or 1:1 for less EOM if you are having trouble exposing details. For Spot color try a 1:1 dull edge.
MS Degreaser can be ordered through our distributors and drop shipped if they do not have it. If your Murakami distributor doesn't want to drop ship you can order it directly.
800.562.3534.
I also have an employee hand out/poster on how to handle S mesh if you would like one. Just PM me.
The other main area of difference in Murakami S Mesh vs any other mesh is retained tensions. Longer print life at optimum tension is worth every penny. Accumulated elongation is another. As mesh warms up during the print it can elongate as well on top of the forces that it' under already. It's called Smartmesh due to "mesh memory", the ability to come back to it's original position stroke after stroke. Sorry for the sales pitch, but the phrase "mesh is mesh" is highly inaccurate and something I hear often, not in this thread, but it deserves some research.
Al
An excellent post. Every so often a product comes onto the market that actually performs as advertised OUTSIDE THE LABRATORY. As a simple spot color , manual printer we find this product pretty much out performs the associated hype but best of all does it in real world conditions. i have absolutely no association with this company or product other than I own some 150 & 180 S-mesh that I purchased and use it every day.
nice to own something that works.
mooseman
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We had the same issues when we switched to Smesh. We tried a lot of different things, degreasing, screen prep chems, even abrading, thinking that the emulsion just wasn't bonding with the mesh properly.
But ultimately we realized that coating the same way was giving us way too much EOM. When I finally got a gauge we were up in the 50% range. All that open area can hold a lot of emulsion.
So we started switching around our coating methods and even tried out a new scoop coater and we were able to get our EOM back down to the high teens / low 20s.
There's a lot of variables that effect eom, besides the emulsion itself and how many coats per side. Also what kind of scoop coater, sharp side, round side, how fast or slow you pull it, how much emulsion is in the coater.
As you're adjusting your coating methods, make sure to use an exposure strip calculator and see if you're rinsing out at least a solid 7 and make sure to rub it with your finger on both sides to see if the emulsion really holding on to a 7.
It's definitely a balancing act with all of it. You don't necessarily need an eom gauge, but keep a note pad out and just keep track of your adjustments and results.
JUst a simple add on question. What scoop coater are is recommended for s-mesh or rather would you recommend.
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Any scoop coater that is free of nicks, divots, rough spots, etc...
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Just an update here: Like I said, I use Cryocoat emulsion and usually degrease with simple green. I tried out the cryoPREP degreaser that goes along with the cryocoat, and I'm pretty sure it made a big difference in adhesion. I've only tested a few screens so far, but I think all in all it'll solve my issue.
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Just curious. Have you tried just pressure washing following reclaim and skipping the degrease step?
I use Newmans and bulk mesh (Some S-Mesh) and cannot remember when I degreased last (horrors) and I'm using Cryocoat with no problems with adhesion.
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I can't imagine not degreasing...even not properly rinsing causes the only issues I have with adhesion. Skipping d egreasing and trying to get nice halftone would be a crapshoot...
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Just call me lucky then. 45 lpi Halftones as well as 100% Solids.
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I can't imagine not degreasing...even not properly rinsing causes the only issues I have with adhesion. Skipping d egreasing and trying to get nice halftone would be a crapshoot...
Just call me lucky then. 45 lpi Halftones as well as 100% Solids.
Different local water could potentially give different results, possibly making degreasing necessary in some locales but not in others. Just a thought.
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Interesting thought. I had forgotten some localities have hard water, some soft, and some in between. I'm in Houston and you may have hit on something. I used to degrease, but have not noticed a difference either way.