TSB
screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Zelko-4-EVA on November 05, 2020, 01:44:26 PM
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i printed this screen with an i-Image ST, coated with Autotype Plus 2000 (about a week old), two coats on each side. dried for about 5 days before imaging screen.
its only happened a few times on a few different screens - a few 200 mesh and a few 230 mesh... it looks like the ink is wicking away from where it was printed. other screens printed with the same image didnt have the same problem.
has anyone seen this before and might have an idea of what i could do in the future to prevent this?
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Looks exactly like not enough moisture in the emulsion. We struggled with that when we first got out I Image. Using a humidifier was not working so all we do now is use a slightly damp rag to wipe each screen first to introduce moisture into the emulsion then print.
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Ha looks very similar to something that came up for me the other day. I played with the humidity in the darkroom, up and down. And even tried face coating some screens to see if it was an eom issue. For us it seemed to be a possible low humidity issue. At the time we had just seen some big temperature fluctuations in our state, so I bumped the humidity up to 35-40.
Maybe it has to do with something similar.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
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I've seen that problem with water resistant (diazo) emulsions. The inkjet ink pools up instead of absorbs a bit and holds the fine detail. At least that was for us...
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This is a common problem in shops with low humidity as stated. I have recently been consulting in several operations in las vegas and its dry. The i- image shops I recommend only coating a couple days ahead to prevent this from happening
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One shop I been to uses a hand held mister on their screens before imaging, I thought of doing that but find the damp rag works perfect every time never an issue.
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DAMP RAG!! That's a damn good idea
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M&R also carries different inks for different conditions. We had this problem when we were using the type D-2 ink...then we switched to T-6 and that worked for a while, but as the weather changed we started getting a weird like spider web cracking on the screen and solid areas were hard to spray out cleanly.
We are using K1 now and that has worked pretty well across the board.
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Wax
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Wax
Making a suggestion to get rid of one that they have, that has already been working in all other cases but this one, and purchase another type...is not an answer. It’s your opinion or preference. Wax has the benefit of working in all environments because it lands in a more solid state on the screen, and is a wax and not subject to water or cold. It’s subject to more heat, but in extreme cases that would not affect screen printing and making screens. To say “go wax” is to indicate that wet ink does not work at all, easily, or well...and that would not be correct in the least.
The answer is/can be, multiple things.
1, The screen has sat too long. T-6 seems to like fresh screens and a little tack to them. Typically, most everyone uses screens within same day to 3-5 days. The older the screen, the more chances are given for pre-exposure and humidity changes. Not good for wax or wet ink.
2, The recent changes in weather and humidity does affect the bonding with some screen rooms and no change in other screen rooms. It’s a minor/easy fix balancing act for some.
3, The technique of coating can exaggerate this effect of change in humidity. Those who coat 1:1 on all or (low mesh), stand more of a chance of not having a flat surface to work with and the ink may pull or puddle down into the valleys of the mesh thread texture or (in the waffle valley). This is not a great method and would not be considered the industry standard but many people do this for ease. Especially on lower mesh. Leaves channels in the gasket for ink to get pushed out of the sides causing blurred edges and ink bleeding.
M&R does sell various types of ink, but they don’t intentionally sell those for various shops and environments to offer a variety. That is not their goal. The reason they have several, is to continue to make one best one, or to improve an issues with the previous “new” best one. Since there are shops that have never had any issues at all, there are some that still want their older "original”one and don’t want to chance changing it up.
Damp rag is another quick fix.
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Wax
Making a suggestion to get rid of one that they have, that has already been working in all other cases but this one, and purchase another type...is not an answer. It’s your opinion or preference. Wax has the benefit of working in all environments because it lands in a more solid state on the screen, and is a wax and not subject to water or cold. It’s subject to more heat, but in extreme cases that would not affect screen printing and making screens. To say “go wax” is to indicate that wet ink does not work at all, easily, or well...and that would not be correct in the least.
The answer is/can be, multiple things.
1, The screen has sat too long. T-6 seems to like fresh screens and a little tack to them. Typically, most everyone uses screens within same day to 3-5 days. The older the screen, the more chances are given for pre-exposure and humidity changes. Not good for wax or wet ink.
2, The recent changes in weather and humidity does affect the bonding with some screen rooms and no change in other screen rooms. It’s a minor/easy fix balancing act for some.
3, The technique of coating can exaggerate this effect of change in humidity. Those who coat 1:1 on all or (low mesh), stand more of a chance of not having a flat surface to work with and the ink may pull or puddle down into the valleys of the mesh thread texture or (in the waffle valley). This is not a great method and would not be considered the industry standard but many people do this for ease. Especially on lower mesh. Leaves channels in the gasket for ink to get pushed out of the sides causing blurred edges and ink bleeding.
M&R does sell various types of ink, but they don’t intentionally sell those for various shops and environments to offer a variety. That is not their goal. The reason they have several, is to continue to make one best one, or to improve an issues with the previous “new” best one. Since there are shops that have never had any issues at all, there are some that still want their older "original”one and don’t want to chance changing it up.
Damp rag is another quick fix.
I have noticed that also. If I coat screens a day or two before I image them, they work much as far as ink laying down smooth and dark. If they sit too long in the rack and become really dry the ink has a pattern in it leaving some areas light and others dark.
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Wax
ok, Honestly your a smarter business man than suggesting to fix a humidity problem by spending 65k on a wax machine. this guy was seeking straight up help. Not your preference. just sayin man!!
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Wax
ok, Honestly your a smarter business man than suggesting to fix a humidity problem by spending 65k on a wax machine. this guy was seeking straight up help. Not your preference. just sayin man!!
Times like your comment I wish they had a like button
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i would think the humidity would be the factor because:
if you look in the picture, we have the i-Image in a room that has two vinyl curtains that i drop down over the weekend. the two humidifiers keep the i-Image at around 35-45% humidity. trying to humidify the entire room (that has the screens and washout tank) would be nearly futile.
the ink we use is type K and we havent added any since march - we have averaged 20 screens a day.
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Our adventure to keep our small imaging room to 40 0r so percent humidity was futile endeavor. We first bought a small humidifier thinking its a small room it should not take much, then we went and bought a much bigger one and what we got was puddles of water, constant need to refill, and never the desired humidity. I think our problem was it was fighting the HVAC system and the HVAC always won. Even tho a small room the entire building was just sucking the humidity oout of the small room. We gave up and went with a damp rag solution. Never looked back
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i would think the humidity would be the factor because:
if you look in the picture, we have the i-Image in a room that has two vinyl curtains that i drop down over the weekend. the two humidifiers keep the i-Image at around 35-45% humidity. trying to humidify the entire room (that has the screens and washout tank) would be nearly futile.
the ink we use is type K and we havent added any since march - we have averaged 20 screens a day.
Yea, that room environment is a little tough. You have the washout booth right there, kicking out some moisture across the I-Image and then back over to the screens. ( a little further to go, but it does go). That's an ongoing battle right there.
Our screen room at JNJ was a little similar, but we had walls and doors that separated the three areas. Each area was controlled separately.How did you land on Type K? It's one of the earliest or was when I started there. Its one of if not THE best one for my preferences but does spead like wildfire in extreme cases. When I speak of the one shop in Fl that had experienced a tropical storm a day earlier, they could not expose good low mesh due to extreme spreading. Their room was like 90% humidity ..and near 50 degrees. Add to that, they coated 1:1 on low mesh and that left a waffle effect in the mesh stencil where the ink just puddled to.
I've only seen that happen one other time and again, was during a rain storm in Mississippi and flooding...and the walls of the screen room were seeping water. I'd print an image...and watch the ink spider out. I was driving back to the airport and could not get into the airport. It was surrounded by water and the airport was in the middle. I drove about another 50 miles trying to find a spot where I could cross the Mississippi river where a bridge was not covered. I made it home as you can see.
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when we bought the i-Image in 2014 it came with Type K. never had an issue with the ink. we had the two printheads replaced last year and stayed with the Type K.
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when we bought the i-Image in 2014 it came with Type K. never had an issue with the ink. we had the two printheads replaced last year and stayed with the Type K.
EXCELLENT! Just a good example of an older ink, and the print heads lasting well over a few years. Like 5-6 years is typical head life from the type K in my experience.
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Wax
Making a suggestion to get rid of one that they have, that has already been working in all other cases but this one, and purchase another type...is not an answer. It’s your opinion or preference. Wax has the benefit of working in all environments because it lands in a more solid state on the screen, and is a wax and not subject to water or cold. It’s subject to more heat, but in extreme cases that would not affect screen printing and making screens. To say “go wax” is to indicate that wet ink does not work at all, easily, or well...and that would not be correct in the least.
The answer is/can be, multiple things.
1, The screen has sat too long. T-6 seems to like fresh screens and a little tack to them. Typically, most everyone uses screens within same day to 3-5 days. The older the screen, the more chances are given for pre-exposure and humidity changes. Not good for wax or wet ink.
2, The recent changes in weather and humidity does affect the bonding with some screen rooms and no change in other screen rooms. It’s a minor/easy fix balancing act for some.
3, The technique of coating can exaggerate this effect of change in humidity. Those who coat 1:1 on all or (low mesh), stand more of a chance of not having a flat surface to work with and the ink may pull or puddle down into the valleys of the mesh thread texture or (in the waffle valley). This is not a great method and would not be considered the industry standard but many people do this for ease. Especially on lower mesh. Leaves channels in the gasket for ink to get pushed out of the sides causing blurred edges and ink bleeding.
M&R does sell various types of ink, but they don’t intentionally sell those for various shops and environments to offer a variety. That is not their goal. The reason they have several, is to continue to make one best one, or to improve an issues with the previous “new” best one. Since there are shops that have never had any issues at all, there are some that still want their older "original”one and don’t want to chance changing it up.
Damp rag is another quick fix.
It’s for people in the future who are on the fence. Buy wax. It works over and over and I don’t see any posts or articles suggesting wax has ever had an issue “sticking” to an emulsion. The OPs post is proof they ink had issues, and might still have issues under certain environments. So if you’re on the fence do you pick a solution that has had problems and might still have problems under certain scenarios or do you pick a solution such as a douthitt machine that has proven itself over and over just works regardless of the environment.
There is only one wax. Douthitt or spyder or Kiwo only sell one wax. That’s because it works in every environment on every emulsion. The simple fact m&r sells different ink (I didn’t know this) is reason enough to not buy that solution. Does a consumer really want to think about what ink he might have to use during certain times of year or with certain emulsions. Or does he really want to worry that if he moves his shop that his new location might have different variables that might or might not require different ink. Just cut the variables out and buy a wax machine.
So for people reading this in the future which soliton do you want to trust your mortgage with?
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Wax
ok, Honestly your a smarter business man than suggesting to fix a humidity problem by spending 65k on a wax machine. this guy was seeking straight up help. Not your preference. just sayin man!!
As I said to Dan. It’s for future people reading this thread. Don’t worry about this issue and buy a wAx machine for $45k (not $65k). The OP I’m positive already knows a wax machine wouldn’t have this problem. My post and these subsequent comments are for people who might not know wax doesn’t have these issues.
This thread just shows my ignorance and how much I still don’t know. I has now idea there were different inks based on different variables. I just assumed (hate when I do that) that an ink machine works the same in every environment and on every emulsion.
I read a lot. Daily everything I can find. And I have never come across a picture like the OP posted where his ink machine isn’t working because of emulsion or environment variable. I sure as heck didn’t know I would need to check moisture content in my screens to check and see if they are “too” dry because imaging with inks.
Obviously there are fixes and easy work arounds as posted here. But I want the number of variables the people in my screen rooms have to consider to be as few as possible.
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I have used both. Wax is the only way to go!! I will never go back.
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Cool... And there's plenty of discussions made specifically for that, this was a question that had nothing to do with wax, or which was better.
We all use the tools at our disposal, and this poster was looking for help, not opinions on what system others thought worked better.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
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I have used both. Wax is the only way to go!! I will never go back.
That, is a more feasible reply I can appreciate. It doesn’t answer the post, but it’s a good answer to a question (What is better in your opinion)?
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Wax
Making a suggestion to get rid of one that they have, that has already been working in all other cases but this one, and purchase another type...is not an answer. It’s your opinion or preference. Wax has the benefit of working in all environments because it lands in a more solid state on the screen, and is a wax and not subject to water or cold. It’s subject to more heat, but in extreme cases that would not affect screen printing and making screens. To say “go wax” is to indicate that wet ink does not work at all, easily, or well...and that would not be correct in the least.
The answer is/can be, multiple things.
1, The screen has sat too long. T-6 seems to like fresh screens and a little tack to them. Typically, most everyone uses screens within same day to 3-5 days. The older the screen, the more chances are given for pre-exposure and humidity changes. Not good for wax or wet ink.
2, The recent changes in weather and humidity does affect the bonding with some screen rooms and no change in other screen rooms. It’s a minor/easy fix balancing act for some.
3, The technique of coating can exaggerate this effect of change in humidity. Those who coat 1:1 on all or (low mesh), stand more of a chance of not having a flat surface to work with and the ink may pull or puddle down into the valleys of the mesh thread texture or (in the waffle valley). This is not a great method and would not be considered the industry standard but many people do this for ease. Especially on lower mesh. Leaves channels in the gasket for ink to get pushed out of the sides causing blurred edges and ink bleeding.
M&R does sell various types of ink, but they don’t intentionally sell those for various shops and environments to offer a variety. That is not their goal. The reason they have several, is to continue to make one best one, or to improve an issues with the previous “new” best one. Since there are shops that have never had any issues at all, there are some that still want their older "original”one and don’t want to chance changing it up.
Damp rag is another quick fix.
It’s for people in the future who are on the fence. Buy wax. It works over and over and I don’t see any posts or articles suggesting wax has ever had an issue “sticking” to an emulsion. The OPs post is proof they ink had issues, and might still have issues under certain environments. So if you’re on the fence do you pick a solution that has had problems and might still have problems under certain scenarios or do you pick a solution such as a douthitt machine that has proven itself over and over just works regardless of the environment.
There is only one wax. Douthitt or spyder or Kiwo only sell one wax. That’s because it works in every environment on every emulsion. The simple fact m&r sells different ink (I didn’t know this) is reason enough to not buy that solution. Does a consumer really want to think about what ink he might have to use during certain times of year or with certain emulsions. Or does he really want to worry that if he moves his shop that his new location might have different variables that might or might not require different ink. Just cut the variables out and buy a wax machine.
So for people reading this in the future which soliton do you want to trust your mortgage with?
While you have some valid points in some areas for another discussion in another post, your whole post was just out of place.
Nothing about this thread was asking “Who’s for what is better”. You know that. You might’ve been a little too quick on the draw with that button pushing is all.
Now, Getting off track (derailing) is a common thing we see in forums and FB groups and I’m not one myself, to police getting off track or derailing a thread if the discussions are of good justifiable content. THIS subject you have initiated tho, is of a different beast and one that deserves staying in your lane. Create new thread if you like. If you want to promote wax and provide good content about the specific details or benefits of your own experiences, that is great! Love that type of information. That’s what we do here. Just not when someone is asking for specific answers to a specific situation, to a specific machine. It’s like
Hey, my idle speed control is sticking in my Mustang when it’s cold, Has anyone seen this? ...and you reply “Chevy”. Not helpful.
When you do post and say “Chevy” You need to know what you are really speaking about. Why does the Mustang stick when it’s cold and why does the Chevy not?
Does he need to buy a 35k chevy’ when he has already bought his new 35k Ford and the fix to his issue, is a one time $35.00-$75.00 purchase or an adjustment to the temperature using equipment he already has in his car at no cost? 35K, or $75.00- $0 forever. What one is smart business and a better answer to his question?
He wasn’t “on the fence”, he has already made his purchase...and your post was to HIM. See the flaw?
Your “reason” for choosing one machine over another...is because of a (one time) adjustment per seasonal change in environment that you might or might not need to do in your environment that cost you very little in the big picture. $35-75.00 - For something you should already have in your screen room anyways that benefits your entire screen room process?
No, You don’t change your emulsion that has been working all year, and you don’t buy a new ink type, because the one you were buying that worked all year all of a sudden starts to react differently. You evaluate what has changed, you address it (like the poster is doing). This is a reaction to a moment of differentials in environment. Should we buy a different auto reclaimer because the chemicals are reacting differently in colder wether? NO, you adjust something and move on.
Pretty simple.