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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Rocfrog on December 26, 2012, 03:12:20 PM
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Ok I would assume that this has probably been beaten to death on here and most forums would just tell me to "search" (which I did) but being somewhat of a Noob I'm kind of lost......
So we are super dead here at the shop and I got bored and started surfing the forums and got into a few threads about Screen Tension and when I was cleaning the shop to make room for a our new exposure unit I found a Newman Meter. So I did a little research and think I figured out how to use it and decided to check a few of our screens. I now have a MAJOR concern, possibly.....
1st off we have static aluminum frames that we have rescreened out of house. So I went thru and checked a few of the ones we have had rescreened recently and then I checked a few of the older ones that have been here since I started (2yrs ago) and the newer ones barely registered on the meter, I think the higest one went up to just under 8n! While the older ones were closer to 14n. But none of them went above 20n, the only ones I checked that were above 20n were our brand new number screen for The Ultimate Number System that we just got in to try and get another set of numbers going and those were around 25n.
We have been having a lot of odd issues lately, not sure if it has been personnel or knowledge or anything like that, but now I'm starting to think this tension thing might be our problem. We have been getting the screens redone by a "local" company where before I believe they use to send them out of state (but I'm not sure) and these odd ball problems have kind of started about the same time as we started using this company now that I think about it.
With that said, what is a "typical" tension for screens? 85% of our screens are 156-160 mesh and then we have some 230's, 305's and maybe 3 110's. The Ultimate Number System screens are all 110's.
Nick
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In a nutshell, about 20 n/cm is the min tension to avoid a host of printing issues.
Below that, you invite issues like image distortion, difficulty registering and peel/ off contact problems. You can work around these, many have and still do and make great prints.
Higher than that, everything improves until about the 35 n/cm mark. To reap benefits of going higher than that, 45 to 65 and beyond, you must pay closer attention to the calibration of everything and you need equipment that can hold these adjustments. Plane issues are at the core here as higher ten = lower off contact and therefore less wiggle room all around.
To get up in tension you'll need:
Better statics, replaced regularly.
Retensionable frames, like Newmans
Hybrids like the shur loc EZ frames.
Last approach you might consider, if you want to stay with statics, is to find a skilled stretcher who can handle delicate mesh and properly stage tension it and have them stretch thin thread mesh like Murakami S mesh, which performs well at lower tensions. Expect to pay more for this, presuming you can find someone nearby to do it.
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I agree. 20-25 ncm is recommended depending on mesh count. We at Xenon get these tensions everyday. What could be happening, is that you are not properly preparing the aluminum screen for re-stretching. To properly do this means removing the glue and any residue mesh from the screen frame without removing aluminum from the screen. Also pre-tensioning the mesh is recommended as well. We at Xenon pretension all of our mesh before it is clear to the frame. We also put the frame through a multistep prep procedure to ensure proper adhesion of the mesh to the frame. If you have any more questions please call me at 404-895-1796.
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I agree. 20-25 ncm is recommended depending on mesh count. We at Xenon get these tensions everyday. What could be happening, is that you are not properly preparing the aluminum screen for re-stretching. To properly do this means removing the glue and any residue mesh from the screen frame without removing aluminum from the screen. Also pre-tensioning the mesh is recommended as well. We at Xenon pretension all of our mesh before it is clear to the frame. We also put the frame through a multistep prep procedure to ensure proper adhesion of the mesh to the frame. If you have any more questions please call me at 404-895-1796.
I have no idea what or how the company does the rescreening....like I said before we send the screens out to be redone. For lack of better knowledge it looks like they "sandblast" the frames clean (on the screen side) before they put on the new screen anything beyond that I don't know. We haven't had any problems with screens popping or coming off the frames, they all seem good as far as that goes. This is just the first time I've checked the tension with something other than tapping on them with my fingers.....
In a nutshell, about 20 n/cm is the min tension to avoid a host of printing issues.
Below that, you invite issues like image distortion, difficulty registering and peel/ off contact problems. You can work around these, many have and still do and make great prints.
If I'm reading this right, this seems like some of the problems we have been running in to. The prints seem to have more "texture" to them like they kind of "stick" to the bottom of the screens and some times no matter what you do to register some of them you just cant get them dead on, or sometimes if it's a hit/flash/hit on the same screen it looks double printed....
Last approach you might consider, if you want to stay with statics, is to find a skilled stretcher who can handle delicate mesh and properly stage tension it and have them stretch thin thread mesh like Murakami S mesh, which performs well at lower tensions. Expect to pay more for this, presuming you can find someone nearby to do it.
I'm pretty sure the owner doesn't want to invest in more frames let alone a completely new style that he doesn't know anything about.
I've read a lot about this "S" mesh lately.....what is that????
Nick
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We haven't had any problems with screens popping or coming off the frames, they all seem good as far as that goes.
Nick
Well, they won't bust or come off the frames without any tension on them. :p
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We run panelframes and newmans. The panels we stick to 110s and 160s almost solely since other mesh counts just print crappy compared to our newmans. Any jobs above 100 shirts I won't accept the panelframes on pretty much, their tension is much better than statics but still not what is recommended. Even ink suppliers / manufactures recommend 25N minimum on every screen.
Our panel frames come out to 18-24N usually and work fine on the manual but I want to stick to rollers on the auto to not run into issues / slow downs.
I can't imagine what you are doing to get good prints out of those screens. You are underbasing with a 160 at under 8N? I can't imagine trying to get that to work out..and wet on wet printing...
Anyway find a good supplier/restrecher for statics and you will be much better off, you want a minimum of 20-25N on standard mesh counts.
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Nick.
I have not been in business that long, but I have bought from a few different screen suppliers.
My first order of screens was decent, I still have some 110 and 155 that are hanging around 18-20 (After 2 years).
Later, I wanted to make sure that I get all my screens at or more than 20 newtons (when I get them in, I understand that they will drop later) and I had that promised to me by 3-4 manufacturers. I returned every order I got, with some of the screens being around 13-14 newtons when they came in.
I still keep about 30 statics for a single color repeat jobs, but I have switched to Newman frames. I think that was my best decision since I started printing.
I bought 25 used Newmans, spent one evening cleaning them, and now have them in near new condition. Using them with Shur-Lock panels.
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We run panelframes and newmans. The panels we stick to 110s and 160s almost solely since other mesh counts just print crappy compared to our newmans. Any jobs above 100 shirts I won't accept the panelframes on pretty much, their tension is much better than statics but still not what is recommended. Even ink suppliers / manufactures recommend 25N minimum on every screen.
Our panel frames come out to 18-24N usually and work fine on the manual but I want to stick to rollers on the auto to not run into issues / slow downs.
I can't imagine what you are doing to get good prints out of those screens. You are underbasing with a 160 at under 8N? I can't imagine trying to get that to work out..and wet on wet printing...
Anyway find a good supplier/restrecher for statics and you will be much better off, you want a minimum of 20-25N on standard mesh counts.
I checked both our maunual frames and our auto press ones and they all seem to be around the same, new ones super loose and older ones somewhat ok. We do only spot printing, no wet on wet printing, everything gets flashed and usually gets hit twice. Most jobs take quite some time to put out, some of that is the fact that they don't higer screen printers here (just cheap labor) and the turn around is huge! In the past 6-8 months we've been thru about 8-10 new employees. So we do a lot of training but with these odd issues happening at random times I couldn't nail down if it was the new employee or something with the press (we have more issues on the auto vs the manual). We do ok for our shop, but even though this place is over 20yrs old I wouldn't say we are a very smooth running shop and the efficency out put is super low compaired to even some home based shops!
I guess my biggest question is....I need to know what the "standard" is on screen tension so I can bring this issue up to the owner and have facts/research to back up my claim because I'm pretty sure he's gonna go after the company that is doing the work, or have me call them and I want to have all the correct info before going down that road.
Nick
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Nick you have quite a few problems you need to address beyond tensions and it sounds like you know that. I would get a good collection of screens that are between 18-25 nm. You guys do not need to be messing around with higher tensions than that right now with the turnover of employees and improper printing practices.
From the sounds of it your low cost wages are costing you far more than you guys are saving. If you guys had a printer that knew what they were doing that press would only have to go around once. Flashing every color and hitting it twice is not the way to go as you already know.
It sounds like you have a idea of what's wrong and are pointing yourself in a good direction. You guys should really look at having someone come in for a few days and do some consulting or see if you can get some hands on at another shop.
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Also, it is possible that your meter is way off. Being that you "found" it laying around and don't really know it's calibration.
See if you can find another printer or have a supplier bring over one and A/B test them. Not fool proof but it will give you an idea, it's unlikely they will both be off roughly the same. One will likely be right and the other will be wrong. But in that case it doesn't answer any questions as neither one of you will know which one is wrong. Example, your meter could be low, or maybe your screen supplier's could be reading high. Both would attribute to low numbers on your meter but neither answers what tension you actually have on your mesh.
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Nick you have quite a few problems you need to address beyond tensions and it sounds like you know that. I would get a good collection of screens that are between 18-25 nm. You guys do not need to be messing around with higher tensions than that right now with the turnover of employees and improper printing practices.
From the sounds of it your low cost wages are costing you far more than you guys are saving. If you guys had a printer that knew what they were doing that press would only have to go around once. Flashing every color and hitting it twice is not the way to go as you already know.
It sounds like you have a idea of what's wrong and are pointing yourself in a good direction. You guys should really look at having someone come in for a few days and do some consulting or see if you can get some hands on at another shop.
I agree, there is a lot wrong with this shop. When I started this job two years ago I had no idea about screen printing and was hired as the Graphic Designer (which is my background) little did I know that I would have to learn all about screen printing and how wrong it was being done here. I have improved a few processes here based on my countless hours of research but all I can do is make suggestions to the owners based on my research and hope they listen. 98% of the time it falls on deaf ears. The main focus of this business is the sporting goods store, the screen print shop is two blocks away and is an after thought (or at least as we feel) so it is a very hard situation to make any real changes and make any true progress. In all reality if the shop was any more efficent than it is the three employee's (myself included) would be bored out of our minds and probably be dropped down to part time.
I would LOVE to have someone come in a "show" us how this is suppoused to run or at least get some more training via classes or visiting other shops, and I have suggested that to the owners but they don't want to "pay" for stuff like that, or they think it's a neat idea and then nothing happens. I know from this job the past two years that I want to be in Screen printing...that's what I want to do, unfortunetly I don't want to do it here. I hope to have my own business and make it great, because I now know what not to do. :D
Also, it is possible that your meter is way off. Being that you "found" it laying around and don't really know it's calibration.
See if you can find another printer or have a supplier bring over one and A/B test them. Not fool proof but it will give you an idea, it's unlikely they will both be off roughly the same. One will likely be right and the other will be wrong. But in that case it doesn't answer any questions as neither one of you will know which one is wrong. Example, your meter could be low, or maybe your screen supplier's could be reading high. Both would attribute to low numbers on your meter but neither answers what tension you actually have on your mesh.
I kind of was thinking about that but I wasn't sure how to check that. It was in the origonal foam case but both the case and the instrument had spray tach residue on them, the case way more than the instrument. But I guess I could see if any of the other shops in the area have one and go from there.
Nick
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Or ship it to someone relatively close that could check it against theirs.
I checked mine against Alan's when I went over to his shop for a few days. We were within a newton or so of each other.
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And in case anyone is wondering here is the instrument I found....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/F1CD12BE-70C1-40FA-8028-563033C9A3A5-12091-00000CB1B17EC184.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/2B47A422-F178-4067-A981-168D3BB28A7D-12091-00000CB1A9DFE409.jpg)
Nick
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here's some shots of some of the screens.....
this is a 110 mesh and is the brand new screen for The Ultimate Numbering System
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/57034D0E-13C8-4518-9AE5-3BF0923D4A2A-12155-00000CB7A498379C.jpg)
This is one of the newly rescreen 230's
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/5328360E-DE25-4BBB-AF0B-4D0A6628F5B3-12155-00000CB805E2798D.jpg)
This is one of the old origonal 156's
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/9132AD16-2B09-4B3A-A1BB-D7E3AAF979E8-12176-00000CB9079BE3F2.jpg)
This is one of the newly rescreened 160's
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/D9FF49E8-AFCF-48B0-A433-DDB874D3E87F-12176-00000CB947F82A18.jpg)
Nick
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I've got the exact same meter. The first picture indicates that it's calibrated correctly. I don't measure tension on screens with emulsion on them, always on clean screens. I would think that emulsion would tend to give a higher reading since there wouldn't be as much deflection over the coated area. Others might know better.
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I would LOVE to have someone come in a "show" us how this is suppoused to run or at least get some more training via classes or visiting other shops, and I have suggested that to the owners but they don't want to "pay" for stuff like that,
Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.
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That 230, being new, is just criminal. May as well "save some more money" and break out the staple gun. You can make the frames out of old pallet wood.....
That's a rough spot you are in. I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction. John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop. Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them. May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.
For now, I would avoid S or thin thread mesh screens, your crew will destroy them. Stick with standard and get a better provider for your static frames. It's disheartening to see DK go through so many suppliers and not a one sent a screen at or above 20n but someone out there can do it, I used to get decent tensions from Pocono if I recall correctly.
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Higher tension in a nutshell has advantages like:
increased image sharpness
consistent halftone reproduction
lower reject rates
improved profits
maintains square mesh openings
prolongs mesh life
more consistent stencil buildup
longer stencil life
less pinholes
more consistent exposures
improved edge resolutions
shorter exposure times
more screen throughput
print with less off contact
improved image registration
fewer press adjustments needed
faster setups
increased press efficiency/productivity
increased press life
better control of ink transfer
decreased squeegee pressure needed
faster print stroke
more consistent ink volume
improved ink opacity and more true colors
decreased ink penetration into substrate
better ink release/shear
less ink build up
screens reclaim faster
less chems needed for reclamation
Here are some stats that have been done from some pretty "big time", world class operations so I trust these numbers. There are some large ranges but you'll see these types of numbers regardless of how efficient or terribly poor at doing this:
100-800% increase in mesh fabric life
30-50% faster press setups (I think these numbers can be larger in the right atmosphere)
40-100% faster stencil making
40-100% faster reclaim
10-30% less reject rate
500-1000% reduction in ink buildup
20-100% faster squeegee speed
40-300% longer stencil life
40-300% longer squeegee life
There are actually a lot more stats that can backup the argument for higher tension. I think if you're currently double stroking and flashing after every color then you'll see a huge increase in productivity by using higher tension, not to mention you'll be doing half the wear and tear on your press by single stroking and not using revolver mode all the time. The increase in the longevity of you're automatic is often overlooked in the tension argument but will have a great financial affect, short and long term.
I think we could go on and on but you need to show some of those stats to your boss and ask him how they can not afford to make the decision to use higher tension screens. I know it might mean that someone could lose a job but maybe it could do what it's done here at our shop...increase quality, faster turnarounds and better service that has brought in a lot more customers and word of mouth advertising. Since 2006, we've been able to keep the same payroll outside in screen printing production but we did 564 more jobs in 2012 versus 2006 and using high tension screens played a large roll in those increases. Our shop stats are absolute fact that I am not fluffing up for the argument's sake.
And taking John's advice would yield you amazing results very quick and would be worth every penny. Your bosses are like a lot of others in this industry and consultants have gotten a bad rap in a lot of industries but there are a few really good ones in our field that could turn your operation around with very little investment when you really think about it.
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I've got the exact same meter. The first picture indicates that it's calibrated correctly. I don't measure tension on screens with emulsion on them, always on clean screens. I would think that emulsion would tend to give a higher reading since there wouldn't be as much deflection over the coated area. Others might know better.
ya I figured the emulsion would effect the reading but it's all we have right now.....being dead means we don't have many screens that need coated....
Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.
We are located in Colorado Springs, CO. I completely understand the need for this and think it would help 10fold if not more, but this is something the owners just don't want to hear.....
That's a rough spot you are in. I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction. John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop. Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them. May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.
Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......
If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......
Nick
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alan802.......I've seen and read some of your posts and honestly you were the one I was hoping would read this and offer some advice!
You make some very good/valid points and 90% of that list is what we are having issues with......
Nick
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This is all too common in our industry. Relatively speaking it is rather cheap to get into; however the money runs out quickly. We are in sore need of some new equipment but over the years they can do some amazing work on machines that are 20 ys old in some cases. We really see the need for upgrading but somehow something always comes up. This a very expensive place to run. Sometimes if you don't have the money you simply don't have it even if that same money can make you more money
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I've got the exact same meter. The first picture indicates that it's calibrated correctly. I don't measure tension on screens with emulsion on them, always on clean screens. I would think that emulsion would tend to give a higher reading since there wouldn't be as much deflection over the coated area. Others might know better.
ya I figured the emulsion would effect the reading but it's all we have right now.....being dead means we don't have many screens that need coated....
Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.
We are located in Colorado Springs, CO. I completely understand the need for this and think it would help 10fold if not more, but this is something the owners just don't want to hear.....
That's a rough spot you are in. I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction. John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop. Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them. May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.
Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......
If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......
Nick
You probably do not want to hear this but one of the worst life choices you can make in life is working for someone that expects you to manage their business yet will not give you what you need to manage that business correctly. In the end buddy you will always get the blame for not making it work, the owners will never admit its their fault for not allowing you to put in the correct procedures and standards to run a busy shop.
BTW Seriously talk to them about bringing in someone like John, just the double stroking alone is a waste of squeegee material through out a year assuming your bosses allow you to replace worn squeegees. Johns price I would think can save you just on that alone not to mention the really big stuff like time!
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I'll throw another vote in for john. Knows what hes talking about, can get your issues sorted and get you set on the right track, im sure for a more than fair price.
Good luck there, it is a tough spot to be in.
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I'll throw another vote in for john. Knows what hes talking about, can get your issues sorted and get you set on the right track, im sure for a more than fair price.
Good luck there, it is a tough spot to be in.
I'd rather pay a price that's more than fair, than pay more than a fair price. The latter sounds like it would be higher. lol ;D
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I want to thank everyone for thier great responses, even though the thread kind of got derailed into how bad of a shop I work at....LOL!!!
I guess now I just need to figure out how to bring this up to the owners and get the rescreeners involved so we can get these screens replaced.....I might throw in a word or two about consulting but not sure that's going to fly with them. But I will keep the contact info handy for my future personal use.
Nick
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I would print this thread out and put it on their desk and be as open and honest as you can with them. Let them know that you're in it with them, not just to spend their money. Sometimes it hurts to put down some serious cash when you can't physically see results. Taking some advice on a discussion forum for people who don't "get" them or realize the wealth of knowledge that is available on them is not an easy thing for them to do either. That's why I always like to throw out those stats and especially those with our shop because I witnessed that with my own eyes and have been through all the weird issues you are having right now. I've been at the shop all night trying to print 1000 4-color job on navy while having one issue after another after another that when we print something like that now, only twice as difficult we are setup, printed, boxed and teardown in less than 2 hours. I've been there for all those double stroking and using revolver mode on a 4 color job and there is no need to do it. Like Mike said, more than half the battle of this screen printing stuff is having the right tools for the job, and 8-12 newton screens are not the right tools for plastisol printing.
If you can talk them into a consultant, I think John would be perfect. There are, for the most part, two types of consultants out there right now, the production heavy guys and then the high-end/award winning printers who will share a lot of the secrets. There are obviously a few more things to it than that but what I'm getting at is you need a production guy, not an award winning sim process guru. A local shop around here recently made a mistake in the type of consultant they hired, they got a guy who wasn't all that well versed in running a 4 auto shop and was more into getting a 3%, 85lpi halftone out of a 330/30. A world class printer no doubt but they needed production inhancements and knowledge on mesh count selection for a spot color school mascot job for example. I'm not bitter about losing that gig :), but seriously they got plenty out of the visit I'm sure but they got a lot they didn't need and missed out on things they did need. Then there are a rare few that have managed to blend the two types of consultant into one guru and you get the best of both worlds, but those guys are really expensive or rare, or both.
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Nick, not to take anything away from John, but you guys also have Doug Grigar and his Grendel classes in Denver.
http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html (http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html)
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I would print this thread out and put it on their desk and be as open and honest as you can with them. Let them know that you're in it with them, not just to spend their money. Sometimes it hurts to put down some serious cash when you can't physically see results. Taking some advice on a discussion forum for people who don't "get" them or realize the wealth of knowledge that is available on them is not an easy thing for them to do either. That's why I always like to throw out those stats and especially those with our shop because I witnessed that with my own eyes and have been through all the weird issues you are having right now. I've been at the shop all night trying to print 1000 4-color job on navy while having one issue after another after another that when we print something like that now, only twice as difficult we are setup, printed, boxed and teardown in less than 2 hours. I've been there for all those double stroking and using revolver mode on a 4 color job and there is no need to do it. Like Mike said, more than half the battle of this screen printing stuff is having the right tools for the job, and 8-12 newton screens are not the right tools for plastisol printing.
If you can talk them into a consultant, I think John would be perfect. There are, for the most part, two types of consultants out there right now, the production heavy guys and then the high-end/award winning printers who will share a lot of the secrets. There are obviously a few more things to it than that but what I'm getting at is you need a production guy, not an award winning sim process guru. A local shop around here recently made a mistake in the type of consultant they hired, they got a guy who wasn't all that well versed in running a 4 auto shop and was more into getting a 3%, 85lpi halftone out of a 330/30. A world class printer no doubt but they needed production inhancements and knowledge on mesh count selection for a spot color school mascot job for example. I'm not bitter about losing that gig :), but seriously they got plenty out of the visit I'm sure but they got a lot they didn't need and missed out on things they did need. Then there are a rare few that have managed to blend the two types of consultant into one guru and you get the best of both worlds, but those guys are really expensive or rare, or both.
Which is why I rarely bother. I do have a pretty reasonable history of running highend to midgrade production facilities but have found, over time, that so many are so far backwards it's hard to know where to begin. Plus they totally don't get the value of the visit. Also you will often find that after the visit, things revert to past methods and processes. It's almost like a slap in the face to the know it all. So what's the point.
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Nick, not to take anything away from John, but you guys also have Doug Grigar and his Grendel classes in Denver.
[url]http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html[/url] ([url]http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html[/url])
Ummm...I wasn't going to mention any comapny or peoples names on here but RockStar Screen Supply is who does our resceening......
Nick
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Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......
If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......
Nick
Nick.. all of this is happening because you let it happen. In your quest to be the 'good' intern, you let this guy walk all over you thinking if you do this for him, he'll do that for you and my guess.. they haven't done a single thing for you but make your life more difficult as you work harder and harder to solve their problems.
This is a dose of truth, it will never get better at that shop and the best thing you can do is walk away with the info you have gained and let them sort out their own problems.
Being in Colorado.. you have Graphic Elephants in Elizabeth, Lon and Jason are a couple of world class consultants.
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I wish one day these thread discussions about mesh will be all about the mesh's spec (dia, open area, ink volume etc etc) and the fluid pressure required to feed the stencil based on the type of ink and squeegee (profile, angle, speed, pressure) used to accomplish a maximum effective transfer to the substrate. Then tension will be a "goes without saying" after thought type a deal because the tension used was in direct relation to the mesh specs. But alas I won't be the one to start this type of discussion because I'm here to learn. I do however appreciate that if a mesh is required to be stretched to 18 newtons to be in spec, I don't go to 26 newtons because I will only be introducing new variables into the transfer process that I will then have to address.
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Nick.. all of this is happening because you let it happen. In your quest to be the 'good' intern, you let this guy walk all over you thinking if you do this for him, he'll do that for you and my guess.. they haven't done a single thing for you but make your life more difficult as you work harder and harder to solve their problems.
This is a dose of truth, it will never get better at that shop and the best thing you can do is walk away with the info you have gained and let them sort out their own problems.
Being in Colorado.. you have Graphic Elephants in Elizabeth, Lon and Jason are a couple of world class consultants.
I agree, unfortunetly I try and do the best at evrything I do and tend to hope that others will appreciate the outcome I produce, but unfortunetly this is one of those situations that I just get used and abused. The "unpaid intern" comment was just a "what I feel like I get paid" comment, I am an actual full time employee of this company.
I showed my wife this thread last night and she completely agrees with all of you on the current situation, but even with that said Ihave been looking for a new gigg for some time now with no real results and I can't just up and leave....so I just bide my time here and us it as a complete learning experiance and take my knowledge else where later. Sadly in the mean time I can't just sit back and watch this happen, I mean after all when I see the shirts out in public I want to be able to say "Hey look I designed and printed that shirt!" and be proud to say it!
I definetly think I'm going to have to do a little more research into this Graphic Elephants company and see if I can get up there and check it out....
Nick
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I wish one day these thread discussions about mesh will be all about the mesh's spec (dia, open area, ink volume etc etc) and the fluid pressure required to feed the stencil based on the type of ink and squeegee (profile, angle, speed, pressure) used to accomplish a maximum effective transfer to the substrate. Then tension will be a "goes without saying" after thought type a deal because the tension used was in direct relation to the mesh specs. But alas I won't be the one to start this type of discussion because I'm here to learn. I do however appreciate that if a mesh is required to be stretched to 18 newtons to be in spec, I don't go to 26 newtons because I will only be introducing new variables into the transfer process that I will then have to address.
This is a continuation of another post. When I was taught this the whole process was much harder. The inks were stiff, the screens were stapled, and the presses were all air. As improvement came down the line it was this and other gems from Joe that helped me know what issues were going to pop up from the latest fix. The following list helped me try things that were unconventional but had a good chance of success. It is important to know why something happens not just that it happens. What I learned the most was that my fixes at first were the exact opposite of what actually worked. Poor ink coverage more likely than not was caused by pushing the ink into the substrate instead of on top of the substrate. So lowering the mesh count and multi hitting were the exact wrong things to do. Calibrating the press to proper settings gave me a much better chance at getting the ink lay down that I wanted with a higher mesh count less squeegee pressure and faster print stroke. However in those days most equipment wouldn't hold the calibrations for very long. I learned to set and him and our challenger to 57,000's of an inch off contact in five places on the platen. These settings would usually last for 1 to 2 shifts before they were out again. This was due mainly to people touching knobs they should not touch.
1. “Pressure” equals force divided by area [F/A]
2. The ideal pressure on the T-Shirt platen [or press bed] is zero
3. The goal therefore is equilibrium between blade pressure [F/A] and mesh tension AT ZERO GAP
4. Rough estimate ~2N/cm² gain for every 16” of off-contact gap
5. So a 110/80 mesh at 25N/cm² screen at 1/8” gap prints around 29N/cm²
6. The ideal blade edge during the stroke ~250m and 16” in length = 0.16in²
7. This mesh uses 231pL [picoliters] of ink [not including the garment]
8. More ink delivery causes wet artifacts, less causes dry artifacts
9. Therefore buckling is inadvisable – causes image drag and pressure on platen
10. Multiply dynamic N/cm² by 1.4503 to find PSI = 29N/cm² * 1.4503 = 42PSI
11. The ideal force on that blade = 42 * 0.16 = 6.7lbs of force
12. Mechanical “pressure” does not transfer ink, after zero gap it only causes blade buckling and drag
13. Speed and entrapment cause a [fluid] pressure head [~as the ink climbs up the blade]
14. Ink transfers when the speed & entrapment increase FLUID pressure causing the ink to escape [into the mesh]
15. Shear is the direction of force applied to the ink parallel to the mesh
16. Very high shearing force is needed to cause matte-down and a smooth surface
17. High shear is ONLY possible with high stroke speed
18. High speed is ONLY possible with minimum angle [or broadcasting and wet artifacts occur]
19. Minimum angle permits minimum [mechanical] pressure, maximum [fluid] pressure, optimal edge & minimum drag
20. The mesh defines the wet-film-thickness [WFT] but it filters or restricts the VOLUME of ink.
21. The blade must deliver sufficient volume to fill the garment [if first down] PLUS the mesh.
22. At 60N/cm² the increase from static to dynamic tension is ~7N/cm² at the center
23. At the ends of a single-axis blade the increase is >25N/cm² ~ 85N/cm² [dynamic] tension
24. They can’t calibrate the press accurately enough to achieve platen-to-platen consistency
25. If their gap is slightly off, the cylinders won’t deliver the force needed to bring the stencil into contact
I do not know why there are lines through the last points. Sorry. Happy New Year
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I agree, unfortunetley I try and do the best at everything I do and tend to hope that others will appreciate the outcome I produce, but unfortunetly this is one of those situations that I just get used and abused.
I spent a better part of my life doing that, it's called a convert contract and all it got me was a head full of resentment when they didn't live up to their part of our self imposed bargain. So you try harder with the same results and things get worse. It's a cycle that once you learn to break it.. you find out that when you work,
YOU do it for YOU and your self worth, not theirs.
I don't work for others in the sense that the only person i'm trying to be better than, is the person who I was yesterday. I love screenprinting, have a deep passion for it because it makes ME happy. Screw with my happiness and we have a problem.
From my past experience, your type of owner is so wrapped up in his business trying to get new orders that any and all changes will require zero expenditure and will require a strenuous approach from you to make it all happen, then the second you're not there, will revert back to the way he knew how way back when before you were there. in other words, all your hard work to 'fix' the place will never stick cause once your gone, the new guy has to do exactly what you did.. fix the place to his way to make things work.
my solution for your problem..
just go to work and stop caring about making him happy and start using his tools to the best you can to make your job as happy as you can make it.
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I wish one day these thread discussions about mesh will be all about the mesh's spec (dia, open area, ink volume etc etc) and the fluid pressure required to feed the stencil based on the type of ink and squeegee (profile, angle, speed, pressure) used to accomplish a maximum effective transfer to the substrate. Then tension will be a "goes without saying" after thought type a deal because the tension used was in direct relation to the mesh specs. But alas I won't be the one to start this type of discussion because I'm here to learn. I do however appreciate that if a mesh is required to be stretched to 18 newtons to be in spec, I don't go to 26 newtons because I will only be introducing new variables into the transfer process that I will then have to address.
They do talk about it, they want to know how to make all that work on static frames because right now, the ability to tension mesh to a specific target point that will achieve the mesh specs that lead to maximum transfer abilities are not in their level of abilities or the budget for getting some roller frames is on the 'to do' list for next year.
The removal of variables is vastly important from the steps of film output through screen set up and print. At any point in this line is a multitude of problems that can go wrong. As you remove those variable you are less likely to think about what could go wrong and more time thinking about how it's going to work. The longer those steps stay in place and people aren't allowed to drift from them, the level of accuracy remains. Introduce a new set like over tension or skipped re-tension and things like coating microns can change which will effect burns times of fine dots that leads to press registration and color shifting issues, that can only be corrected by using a correctly tensioned screen in the first place.
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Here is a perfect example of what we run into here.....
100pcs brown in color printing white on front and back....
Here's a screen shot of the art work....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/screenshotp_zps1245aa72.jpg)
Here's a few shots of the film....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/IMG_6039_zps3f3ed7e2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/IMG_6038_zpsea0d611f.jpg)
Here is the 1st hit on the press....on a 230 screen 2 swipes...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/IMG_6035_zps4e073fa4.jpg)
And here is the shirts after the second hit (2 swipes) and they've been thru the dryer...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/IMG_6036_zpsf8738c25.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/IMG_6037_zpsb27d74bb.jpg)
and this took about 1.75hrs on the auto......and the backs still aren't done....
This is typical and acceptable for our shop...
**EDIT** Sorry for the crappy cellphone pics**
Nick
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Hoooeee, that's some epic dot gain. Good screens, not even great screens, just decent, would make that a one hit and you would have crisp edges and a print that actually resembled the art. That halftone fill is totally closed in after the 2nd hit (probably 4 strokes at this point?).
For a quick fix, talk to your art dept and get them to start comping for the extreme dot gain on art like this, either by linearizing the film output (this can be done by eye) or just plain pulling back the % fills.
Also, your run times are obviously waaaay long on this, slower than our times manual printing for an identical job. On a job like this we're at around 75 pcs/hr print/flash/print or 100-150/hr single hit, sorted, counted, boxed and ready to go.
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That's a perfect job for a "one hit white" at our shop. I just did one earlier today and I'll get the video up later. That type of artwork is absolutely perfect for a one hit. I did our last job on a 100/55 at 25 newtons with a 50 micron stencil. 23-24 psi on the printhead and 10"/second print stroke. A special fill blade and a special squeegee blade played a large role but I'll get more into that stuff later in another thread. So, like Zoo said, a little better screen, perhaps the right stencil thickness and off contact, better mesh count selection and you'll get rid of at least 2 of those 4 strokes and possibly 3 of them.
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For a quick fix, talk to your art dept and get them to start comping for the extreme dot gain on art like this, either by linearizing the film output (this can be done by eye) or just plain pulling back the % fills.
Umm....I am the "art department".....
**EDIT** we are a two and half person shop.....Me = art, reclaiming, burning, auto press operator, etc.... The other full time person is the manual press operator and she can run the auto but doesn't like it and then we have a part-time new person that has ZERO experience and he is just supposed to be "general shop labor".....
That's a perfect job for a "one hit white" at our shop. I just did one earlier today and I'll get the video up later. That type of artwork is absolutely perfect for a one hit. I did our last job on a 100/55 at 25 newtons with a 50 micron stencil. 23-24 psi on the printhead and 10"/second print stroke. A special fill blade and a special squeegee blade played a large role but I'll get more into that stuff later in another thread. So, like Zoo said, a little better screen, perhaps the right stencil thickness and off contact, better mesh count selection and you'll get rid of at least 2 of those 4 strokes and possibly 3 of them.
I would love for something like this to be a one hit wonder, but everything we do light on dark "has to be hit twice" kind of an unwritten rule around here so the white "is nice and bright". Our manual press person is running the auto and I know for a fact if she was to print this on the manual it would go 10x's faster but for our shop those "counts" mean they go on the auto. But at the same time I think she would still do a hit/flash/hit on the manual as well and not be concerned about the "halftone" "filling in" just that the white is "bright".....
Nick
Nick
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Well, for now, pull back the fill % to accommodate for the gain.
Try, try, try, to get better screens in there. You can't build without that foundation, it's the heart of the process.
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Well, for now, pull back the fill % to accommodate for the gain.
Try, try, try, to get better screens in there. You can't build without that foundation, it's the heart of the process.
Are you meaning turn everything into a halftone....presay....???
Nick
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Well, for now, pull back the fill % to accommodate for the gain.
Try, try, try, to get better screens in there. You can't build without that foundation, it's the heart of the process.
Are you meaning turn everything into a halftone....presay....???
Nick
Haha! I guess you could, you are printing totally solid at what, 50% fill there?
Glad you have a sense of humor about it, that's the only way to go.
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Haha! I guess you could, you are printing totally solid at what, 50% fill there?
Glad you have a sense of humor about it, that's the only way to go.
Ya the word basketball is at 55%....
It's about the only thing keeping me sane here.....
Nick
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Here's a poorly done video of what I was talking about earlier. This art is much like the one you showed except no halftones and a little thicker lines in the font on our print but you get the picture.
One Hit White/Plastisol ink (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs9qLvUpIOY#ws)
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Alan,
Are you using Miami Screen Supply white? Which version if you are? Did you reduce it? You mentioned special squeege, whats special about it?
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Alan, is that a 60 dur double bevel "pointy" squeegee. That's about the only way we've been able to do this 1 hit stuff. However with small halftones we get too much gain filling in the dots. What's your thoughts on this? In our shop a job like roc posted would go 2 screens, 1 with text only and 1 on high mesh with text and halftones.
Roc I'm up on the south side of Denver your more then welcome to come up one night and I will get you sent with a nice tensioned roller frame as well as help with any auto printing stuff. I can run this art through our process and maybe the way we do it will lend some insight. Let me know
Danny
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Alan, is that a 60 dur double bevel "pointy" squeegee. That's about the only way we've been able to do this 1 hit stuff. However with small halftones we get too much gain filling in the dots. What's your thoughts on this? In our shop a job like roc posted would go 2 screens, 1 with text only and 1 on high mesh with text and halftones.
Danny,
I believe that this is a Plieger 70 duro double bevel.
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One thing people should really note in alans video is that there is no deflectin in that squeegee. A great sign he has everything optimal and not forcing the squeegee to mash the ink on the shirt, the times I get really good hits of white I always noticed the squeegee is not struggling at all.
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Interesting little video....
Ours is almost similar speed as yours, I would assume ink choice has a lot to do with this as well. We use One Stroke's Hybrid white ink. I also know our "ink gasket" is probably not correct...we dry them with the shirt side up because that's how our dark room is designed.....
Nick
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Interesting little video....
Ours is almost similar speed as yours, I would assume ink choice has a lot to do with this as well. We use One Stroke's Hybrid white ink. I also know our "ink gasket" is probably not correct...we dry them with the shirt side up because that's how our dark room is designed.....
Nick
Huh? Screens need to be dried ink side up, man your screens really must be terrible wow. Assuming you did not just make a typo change the way you dry them first off right away.
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Interesting little video....
Ours is almost similar speed as yours, I would assume ink choice has a lot to do with this as well. We use One Stroke's Hybrid white ink. I also know our "ink gasket" is probably not correct...we dry them with the shirt side up because that's how our dark room is designed.....
Nick
This is just bizarro, what makes the design of your darkroom such that you cannot have the print side down?
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Interesting little video....
Ours is almost similar speed as yours, I would assume ink choice has a lot to do with this as well. We use One Stroke's Hybrid white ink. I also know our "ink gasket" is probably not correct...we dry them with the shirt side up because that's how our dark room is designed.....
Nick
This is just bizarro, what makes the design of your darkroom such that you cannot have the print side down?
I have seen racks in rooms before that ran horizontal across the wall. This would dictate mesh side up drying.
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This thread is both extremely educational, sad and hilarious at the same time. When I scrolled down to that print with the smashed up halftones I busted out. Too many flash backs. No pun intended. It's like a great novel. High points, low points, drama. Missing some explosions and a love story tho.
This reminds me of trying to get Russell Athletics to convert. Twas a saga of it's own. I said this before, but my first week at Russell, I watched the manual printers in awe. It was baffling. I watched every manual pressman hitting the prints 6 times each. Yes, print, print, print, flash, print, flash, print, print. send thru the dryer. Oh, and never tell a screen room employee jokingly, that the screen room mgr doesn't know what he's doing. ::) Doesn't go over well. People can't take a joke. Sheeesh.
This young Rockfrog reminds me of myself. An artist, interested in the process, see's obvious errors and tries to make improvements but has to go up against a company that (is in business for years and years before you came along). Thats the way many see it. We were here doing this ok before your new ideas. It's been fine and we are making a profit or we wouldn't be here, why change it? Thats what you are up against.
Fun stuff if you can stomach it. You have to be able to let people wanting to stab you in the back and sabotage your efforts roll off your back so to speak.
I had some exciting and fact proving light bulb moments for the managers at Disney and Russell when they finally realized they were indeed doing it poorly. Rewarding in the end, but it can be along, tough and lonely road.
The biggest thing about going into an existing shop for a new guy that knows "something" about making improvements (and your the new guy) is getting the current management to get on board.
At both places, I had to pad the changes by making them convinced they are the ones making the changes. You can't walk into the production managers office and tell him you are making changes. You need to understand and be ok with needing to make someone else look good...and your life will be easier. It sucks to not get the recognition but in the end, at a place like that, you won't anyways. That place need a whole new paradigm. You can do this battle, but it could be easier to walk.
If you want to stay at this place and try to make improvements, build relationships. Don't make out to be an obvious butt kisser, but find positive things to mention at important moments. Talk them up during meetings about positive things they are doing or did.
When you have something you want to look into but it's in another persons department, Come up with a presentation of sorts (to that person) that makes it look like you two are going to work on this "project" together but you take on most of the responsibilities. You do the research, you do the test and that person does the positive presentation to management. Works every time. They look good, you make a friend and things get changed. Suck to have to do it this way, but thats politics. Never take it upon yourself to move into someone's territory and make changes without them being notified and a invited to be part of it. Chances are, they will let you go about your business that way, so they don't have to invest time into your "little projects".
In retrospect, today, I would go full tilt, throw caisson to the wind and be bold enough to just tell everyone together at once at the same time with management included, here is your list of what is needed to be changed. Here are the cost involved. If it's not done, here is the amount of wasted money per year per department and here is my facts to support that.
My biggest obstacle was the micro meetings that happened after our group meetings. To people in general, telling someone they need to make improvements in a department they control is like telling them they are not doing a good job.
Have fun. Good times. Dealing with this stuff is an experience indeed.
By the way, I have to do this again myself at a multi million dollar Co already in place doing good business (as a creative service) but had for the last 5 years been producing their own printing as well. I am going in with the idea that I am going to tell them what they need to hear. Not what others in print management want them to hear. I will not make friends in production and I'm ok with that. Like in that last post CommandZ made to me. "There will be blood". Figuratively speaking.
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Alan,
Are you using Miami Screen Supply white? Which version if you are? Did you reduce it? You mentioned special squeege, whats special about it?
I use the smooth from Miami this time of year, I was using the superior in the summer. The squeegee blade is a new blade that isn't for sale yet. I probably shouldn't mention it until he figures out what he's going to do with it. It's a fantastic blade for lower mesh counts and using low pressure but it's still up in the air as to whether or not he's going to put it out to the public. Too many shops just throw blades in a screen without proper thought on whether or not it will work and this blade is very picky about it's mesh counts and ink consistency so you have to know when to use it and when to move to another blade. Unfortunately some printers will put that blade in the wrong mesh count and then claim it's a piece of crap. His other products are more versatile and work in a wide range of applications but that blade I'm using in the vid needs an open mesh count, thin threads. I'm also using a Dr J fill blade instead of a standard aluminum floodbar.
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Alan, is that a 60 dur double bevel "pointy" squeegee. That's about the only way we've been able to do this 1 hit stuff. However with small halftones we get too much gain filling in the dots. What's your thoughts on this? In our shop a job like roc posted would go 2 screens, 1 with text only and 1 on high mesh with text and halftones.
Roc I'm up on the south side of Denver your more then welcome to come up one night and I will get you sent with a nice tensioned roller frame as well as help with any auto printing stuff. I can run this art through our process and maybe the way we do it will lend some insight. Let me know
Danny
That blade I'm using is much like the smiling jack but different. I've used the double beveled blades in the past, the 70 duro and 80 duro. I've got great results with the double beveled blades and I'll do some head to head comparisons between this new blade and the double bevels soon.
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Huh? Screens need to be dried ink side up, man your screens really must be terrible wow. Assuming you did not just make a typo change the way you dry them first off right away.
I have seen racks in rooms before that ran horizontal across the wall. This would dictate mesh side up drying.
Here are a few shots of our dark room......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/22FD6B2C-450D-4DEF-8987-DEE9DE3722DD-21194-0000173D987F8563.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/FB279649-5A78-4BBC-BB56-C2944C5ED6DB-21194-0000173D9DF1292C.jpg)
I have thought about redoing it so the frames are flipped over but once again it is something that is met with resistance....
Dottonedan
I never intended this thread to go this way I was just merely trying to educate my self and it has gone into everything else...But I'm glad you see the humor in my current situation. I agree 100% with what you are saying and on a small scale is exactly how I treat problems in this company when I see them, like I said this is a small company on the screen print side there is us two in the shop, 4 sales people and the two owners and that's it. I make side suggestions do some research and put an information packet together for the owners to review. The problem with that is that most of the time they are not over here and don't see the problem and or are only worried about it while they are over here after that it's like they completely forget our conversation. I never try to be the "know it all" in these situation and I always bring it up in a positive to the company and back it with other shops facts/experiences, mainly because before here I have never even set foot in a screen print shop so it is all new to me but for some odd reason I'm the type of person that see's stuff and thinks "there has to be a better, easier, faster way to do that!?"......
Nick
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Roc I'm up on the south side of Denver your more then welcome to come up one night and I will get you sent with a nice tensioned roller frame as well as help with any auto printing stuff. I can run this art through our process and maybe the way we do it will lend some insight. Let me know
Danny
I would LOVE to check out another shop!!!! As you can probably tell from this thread I want to learn the proper way to do this, not just get by and I am a VERY hands on kind of guy. Even in this thread with all the numbers and such I have gotten kind of lost a time or two and have to go back and reread several times....
Nick
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That fact that you see better ways and notice there needs to be improvement when others don't makes you the "know it all", like it or not.
"The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind".
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Nick fix that screen rack ASAP. If you cannot convince your owners of something that fundamental then you are going to be working with miserable screen forever! That rack should not take someone with basic carpentry skills a couple hours to redo. Yet the owners are willing to allow jobs take twice as long to run. Screens being dried like that will have near zero EOM, your gasket is non existent thats why you have to print multiple times to get opacity, but almost as important without a decent gasket things like half tones will blow right out with the worse gain ever. As your previous picture proves already.
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If you have 2+ frame widths on those shelves, all you do is take some trashed frames and put them mesh down where the drying ones are now, and stack the one you want to dry on top with the mesh down. Even some bottle caps or broken down yardsticks or something could 'fix' that rack for long enough to show them why they should pay you to do it right and be happy about it.
I'd say screen tension could improve your situation, just like any other printing variable improved. but if your drying rack is any indication of the SOP of the shop, you could probably do a few other things to improve your pre-press without massive investment...
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By the looks and sounds of everything so far screen tensions are pretty far down on the to do list. Fix the other variables and then attack tension. Your shop may not even be able to work with the higher tensions at this point.
A good printer can make a good print with a loose screen or a tight one. A bad printer will make both look like crap. Address your rack, coating, print practices, and tensions as you go. Just use screens that are close to each other in tension while you get the rest situated.
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Well I've decided that next week I will tackle the dark room and try and rebuild the "shelves" the correct way using the materials we have on hand, it shouldn't take me more than a day and since we are pretty much dead anyway it'll give me something to do....
FYI I'm loving all the GREAT feedback, I want to thrive in this industry and the more I learn the better off I feel that I'm headed in the right direction!
Nick
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Well I've decided that next week I will tackle the dark room and try and rebuild the "shelves" the correct way using the materials we have on hand, it shouldn't take me more than a day and since we are pretty much dead anyway it'll give me something to do....
FYI I'm loving all the GREAT feedback, I want to thrive in this industry and the more I learn the better off I feel that I'm headed in the right direction!
Nick
Not sure what your position there entitles exactly but me for instance I am the production Manager and a few other hats but the most important thing is getting the work through the system. I am expected to actually make things work better, I do not have to ask permission to do any upgrade as long as its with in reason I am expected to do it its my job. My boss gives me the respect that a person with responsibilities should have. Why hire someone for running production and not letting do what is necessary? I can purchase what is needed with out having to ask unless its big bucks of course. IN your case you mention you are dead, that my friend is normally translated in to up keep and upgrade time in our industry, your bosses should be expecting and allowing you to improve on systems and equipment when time is so available. Even tho we are far from dead we are far from slammed so i have several projects cooking currently, I have to take advantage of slower times to do certain things because you can never take for granted that next week or the week after will be slow.
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That's the hard thing about here...there is no real system/structure.....no real "expectations", other than to get the job done. As far as spending monies as far as I know all purchases have to be approved before hand...ALL PURCHASES! Everything here is super loose and no real direction or understanding, it just kind of functions. It is really hard for me to explain the operations of this place to others (my wife included) unless you work here or have worked here, it is a very odd situation and very hard place to work.....
Nick
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Ok so I have a question about the EOM......
Everyone is saying that we need to flip our screen so when they dry we get a good EOM due to gravity. Well I went out and checked our current screens by running my finger on them to see if i could notice and sort of difference between coated and non-coated surfaces (ink gasket area). Well I checked the shirt side and couldn't feel a difference at all. And after a few i thought about it and thought that based on this discussion I should be able to feel the "ink gasket" on the ink side because technically the screens are backwards. So I checked the ink side the same way and still nothing....I couldn't feel the "edge" of the emulsion at all....
So with that said....is there a way to accurately measure this with out any fancy tools? What else could be wrong here? Because at this point I don't think flipping them is going to fix that. We coat our screens 2:1 for anything below 230 and 1:1 for anything above that......
Nick
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You have no EOM basically, you need more emulsion on the screen and that will help with some of your issues. It won't be the only fix you need but it's a start. A good way to tell if you what 100 microns eom is going to feel like is to set a piece of paper on the table and rub your finger across the edge and feel that "step" between the table and the piece of paper. That's what you're going to look for on your screens, maybe not quite that much but half would be good. You'll want it to feel like that on your lower mesh counts, but your mid to high mesh counts need to feel less step than the sheet of paper, but still noticeable.
You need to use the glisten method of coating. I'll see if I can find the thread on it somewhere on this forum so we don't have to retype all that. The glisten method gets you in that 15-25% EOM ratio that you need for most of your screens. We shoot for 20% for most everything except 86-135 where we are around 30-50% and 230's and 305's we try to stay around 12-15% to keep our exposure times down a bit to hold that finer detail since we use film from inkjet and not imagesetter or CTS.
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For a quick simple experiment to see if flipping over the frame over will help is to tape some old cut squeegee on the shirt side so the emulsion does touch the wood. If the squeegee is too thick, use some coins.
My guys did not believe in it until I have to prove it to them..
Good luck
Anthony
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So with that said....is there a way to accurately measure this with out any fancy tools? What else could be wrong here? Because at this point I don't think flipping them is going to fix that. We coat our screens 2:1 for anything below 230 and 1:1 for anything above that......
Nick
Nick, why not simply sacrifice a little emulsion and one screen cycle by taking a screen with the same mesh that you have coated with your 2:1 or 1:1 process and coat a second screen 3 or 4 times on the shirt side and 2 or 3 times on the squeegee side JUST to see if you get any different results in the EOM / finished stencil.
You then could evaluate the screen (stencil) you are producing now vs the stencil you might get with the 4 /2 coating method.
A subjective review then might help you see a difference given the two methods and indicate that a change in coating process did or didn't change your results.
It might indicate the root of the problem lives somewhere other than you 2:1 or 1:1 coating process and move off to another review or may get you the results you are looking for.
Only cost you a few pennies of emulsion and an hour or so work.
respectfully
mooseman
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Coating Screens for Maximum Effect, The Glisten Method.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2621.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2621.0.html)
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once again guys, this is GREAT information. Thank you again for helping me out.
I was hoping that the stack we had in the darkroom was not coated yet but I get they got coated on Friday, so we have a few that need to be reclaimed so in the mean time I will try and redo the "dry rack" so it is to hold the screens the proper way and I will show this "glisten" method to the person that coats them and we'll go from there....
I'm excited to see the results!
Nick
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Alan gave great advice but make sure when you check the edge of the emulsion its on a developed screen, your looking for a crisp edge where the stencil is, with 110 or even 156 you can see the OEM by eye easily with out feeling the edge. Trying to guage your OEM on a coated non burned screen is hard with out the right tools.
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Alan gave great advice but make sure when you check the edge of the emulsion its on a developed screen, your looking for a crisp edge where the stencil is, with 110 or even 156 you can see the OEM by eye easily with out feeling the edge. Trying to guage your OEM on a coated non burned screen is hard with out the right tools.
Even still, 0% Eom vs 30% EOM is pretty easy to see the difference. I can see our 100% EOM's just by looking at the dry emulsion on the screen. Nice and dark blue. :)
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Alan gave great advice but make sure when you check the edge of the emulsion its on a developed screen, your looking for a crisp edge where the stencil is, with 110 or even 156 you can see the OEM by eye easily with out feeling the edge. Trying to guage your OEM on a coated non burned screen is hard with out the right tools.
Even still, 0% Eom vs 30% EOM is pretty easy to see the difference. I can see our 100% EOM's just by looking at the dry emulsion on the screen. Nice and dark blue. :)
You can but on our 305's and 260's which we use a ton of you can't accurately tell anything on just a plain coated dried screen.
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Wow this was just to much to read and I may be saying something that has already been said, but you hit a key word "sport store" and 20 years old. You just told me that is what your company prints or started out printing and that type of printing was and still to some degree been heavy printing thru low mesh counts with 2 to 3 colors. Sports such as football, baseball, basketball, softball etc tend to lean toward heavy printing for durability (that has change some now because of dryfit which needs a thinner ink or waterbase). I might be wrong but sounds like your company was sports printing and just started taking more detail jobs and using the same process as they did for sports. You might not have a screen tension problem but a problem with the style of printing you all are doing, fine graphics with halftones and thin lines, high detail needs to be printed with higher mesh counts and even your screen coating (EOM) may need to change. We print both styles here in our shop sports and high detail and sports like baseball and football the graphics are 95% spot with only a few halftones on 87,110,137 and I coat those screen a little thicker, High end stuff 110 to 305 mesh, like I said someone may have mention this already, but check your printing process and separate the two..Oh and squeegees, 60, 70 duro standard printing 60/90/60 , 70/90/70 high end printing etc.
Darryl
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Wow this was just to much to read and I may be saying something that has already been said, but you hit a key word "sport store" and 20 years old. You just told me that is what your company prints or started out printing and that type of printing was and still to some degree been heavy printing thru low mesh counts with 2 to 3 colors. Sports such as football, baseball, basketball, softball etc tend to lean toward heavy printing for durability (that has change some now because of dryfit which needs a thinner ink or waterbase). I might be wrong but sounds like your company was sports printing and just started taking more detail jobs and using the same process as they did for sports. You might not have a screen tension problem but a problem with the style of printing you all are doing, fine graphics with halftones and thin lines, high detail needs to be printed with higher mesh counts and even your screen coating (EOM) may need to change. We print both styles here in our shop sports and high detail and sports like baseball and football the graphics are 95% spot with only a few halftones on 87,110,137 and I coat those screen a little thicker, High end stuff 110 to 305 mesh, like I said someone may have mention this already, but check your printing process and separate the two..Oh and squeegees, 60, 70 duro standard printing 60/90/60 , 70/90/70 high end printing etc.
Darryl
Yes we are a Sports store first! 99.9% of everything we print is High School related with a few Little leagues mixed in. Most of all our printing happens on our 156-160 mesh screens unless it has a halftone in it then it get's printed on a 230. We have a few 110's and a few 305's but those rarely get used. Other than our number screens for The Ultimate Numbering System which are all 110mesh. 90% of our jobs are for "teams" so we usually do numbers less than 30 per run, unless it's "spirit wear" and then they can range but usually never go above 100-150. And of that 90% of it is one to two color prints, we do have one school that we do quite a bit of four color stuff, but we only do SPOT printing...we don't even have process inks.....
The only "high detail" (as you put it) has been stuff that I have "played" with and/or "tried" to print. Unless your counting basic halftone's, which I try and use as often as I can because they can help make a one/two color design stand out more.
If anyone wants to see some of the stuff we print this is a link to my personal website that has some examples of what we have done....
http://creativenick.carbonmade.com/projects/4510568#1 (http://creativenick.carbonmade.com/projects/4510568#1)
Nick
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Ok so I made little sand off's so we could flip the screens, we coated them using the "glisten" method. Had a job this morning so we thought we try the new screens.....
Well I was excited when I saw this on the first screen.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo_zpsf37b40cf.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo2_zps5cfe8f17.jpg)
you can actually see and feel an edge.....
Still need to increase the time a little bit but it's close...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo3_zps0438f2d2.jpg)
but then my excitement quickly was deflated once we actually printed it....
Here is the back after print/flash and only one swipe...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo4_zps36e001ab.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo5_zpsc91bc50e.jpg)
So we hit it again...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo6_zps9ff29d9c.jpg)
Here it is after the dryer...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo8_zpsc4ddfed1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo9_zpsa48c406a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo10_zps3645c674.jpg)
To me it looks exactly like the other one I posted eariler, don't really see a change in the print.
Here's some shots of the front...
Print/flash....2swipes
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo11_zpse262fbeb.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo12_zps5da585ab.jpg)
second print....2swipes
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo14_zps096525e5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo15_zps57e19d4a.jpg)
And after it's been thru the dryer.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo18_zpsf1762c25.jpg)
So not really sure how I feel now....
**EDIT** sorry for the crappy cell phone pics....
Nick
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What mesh count are you using to print white on darks? A little bit more EOM really isn't going to change the print much if you're still using the wrong mesh count.
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If you can get the quality you are looking for with one hit flash one hit then you are in a decent place. I hope you are not thinking you are going to get one hit whites all of a sudden, thats not realistic at all. 90% of us printing a big bold white on a shirt as dark as your pic will require a hit flash hit. Personally I didn't think that first pic looked all that bad assuming your next hit after flash completed it.
But you are also using halftones and big bold areas all on the same screen, that is something we would never do not on dark any ways. The solid areas would always be on a lower count mesh and those half tones on a much higher mesh count.
Not knowing what mesh count the screen is in your pic I cant say if thats a good EOM for my personal taste. If thats a 110 then no its not enough in my shop, if its a 160 it still looks a little light for me personally.
Trust me do not throw this all out because you did not get the results you expected first time, there is still so many other variables to work on once you get many of them in place it gets much better.
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What mesh count are you using to print white on darks? A little bit more EOM really isn't going to change the print much if you're still using the wrong mesh count.
The halftone back was on a 230 and the front is on a 110 (I think, it is one of our new re-screened ones and the writing has disappeared)....
If you can get the quality you are looking for with one hit flash one hit then you are in a decent place. I hope you are not thinking you are going to get one hit whites all of a sudden, thats not realistic at all. 90% of us printing a big bold white on a shirt as dark as your pic will require a hit flash hit. Personally I didn't think that first pic looked all that bad assuming your next hit after flash completed it.
But you are also using halftones and big bold areas all on the same screen, that is something we would never do not on dark any ways. The solid areas would always be on a lower count mesh and those half tones on a much higher mesh count.
Not knowing what mesh count the screen is in your pic I cant say if thats a good EOM for my personal taste. If thats a 110 then no its not enough in my shop, if its a 160 it still looks a little light for me personally.
Trust me do not throw this all out because you did not get the results you expected first time, there is still so many other variables to work on once you get many of them in place it gets much better.
I wasn't looking for an AMAZING change...I was hoping to at least see some change....
I have thought about doing the solids and the halftones on two different screens but around here that would probably be frowned upon. The other thing about that is I would have to figure out how to output the films separately/properly....
I'm far from giving up. Your right there are a ton of variables that still could be "wrong", but I am going to assume that this is at least in the right direction....I think...I hope...
Nick
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The halftone back was on a 230 and the front is on a 110 (I think, it is one of our new re-screened ones and the writing has disappeared).... (http://The halftone back was on a 230 and the front is on a 110 (I think, it is one of our new re-screened ones and the writing has disappeared)....)
For a 230 mesh then that first hit of white is not bad at all. I wouldn't expect much more than that but again you are fighting a battle of trying to get decent half tones on the screen and a solid white print, those two together simply do not mix. If you have an auto then use more screens, doing things the correct and best way should never be frowned upon.
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This was printed on our Auto, we have an M&R Sportsman 8clr 10pallets only one flash on it though.
Interesting about the two screens, I mean it makes since but that means a one color becomes two technically.....
Nick
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Squeegee angle and print pressure/speed also plays a big role in how prints look.....
Darryl
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This was printed on our Auto, we have an M&R Sportsman 8clr 10pallets only one flash on it though.
Interesting about the two screens, I mean it makes since but that means a one color becomes two technically.....
Nick
It becomes two colors technically but honestly its just an easier way and better way to make your product look better. In your case you could have had two white screens, one with the halftones and the open areas and the other just the open areas. Flash in-between of course. The halftones do not need a flash and rehit because you want to keep the dot gain down anyways. Some shops charge for the hi lite white screens some do not, we do not. We are saving on time and frustration and already getting a bit more $$ for the flash charges.
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I'm not sure what your original art was to look like. Wanna post a jpg? That can tell us more also. For example, we don't know how light the halftone percentages (were supposed to be) in the original art. Printing twice will add some tone, making ti look more filled in. To prepare for that, you just cut back "lets say" what is to print as 20% back to 15 or even 12% considering you will more than likely print, flash print.
Did you already do any % cut backs in advance?
The coverage didn't look that bad here as Inkman said. It all depends on what you were shooting for.
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Here's the art work....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/AACHEER_zps54a00ae1.jpg)
Originally the outline of the A is 100% solid and the right side of the A is at 55%, then when I placed it behind the text I dropped the whole thing down to 35%....
Nick
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As I reread your post and look at the pics, the back print with the names looking like it does on a 230 with one stroke, flash, one stroke isn't surprising or out of ordinary for that mesh count and thick white ink. You simply have to use too much pressure to print most white ink through a 230 and have the ink still sitting on the top of the shirt. It has been done, but it rarely is done...if that makes sense. Now if you printed the front through a 110/81 with 2 strokes, flash, 2 strokes and that's all you got on the shirt then something for sure doesn't look right. Perhaps most of the ink of the first 2 strokes is going into and through the garment or something else is happening. Honestly we would get that opacity with one stroke through a 110/81, 123/55, 135/48 and maybe even a 150/48 and through an 83 or 100/55 it would likely be a one hit white. It also looks like the print is a little rough telling me that your ink isn't shearing properly, which is a result of poor tension and off contact for the most part. That's one of those things that rarely comes up when we're talking tension, but the ability of the mesh to get the hell out of the way and the ink to not be rough is very important. The front print doesn't look bad, but the fact that you could get that amount of opacity with 1/2 or 1/4 of the work is what is bothersome. I know most shops just double stroke most everything and move on, but with a little more prep work and mesh selection you really don't have to.
On the subject of the back and 2 screens, that's what we normally do when there is a need to have a halftone background or areas with bold areas that need to be opaque. I'd have put the "A" on a 180-205, one stroke and be done with it, then the names on anything from 100/55 to 135/48 and done a one hit white. No doubt you can achieve a one hit on the names, maybe even as high up as a 150/48 with the right stencil thickness.
But all this doesn't mean crap if your trying to do all of this with 15 newton screens. With a 15 newton 110/81, you should be able to do that front print with 1 stroke, flash, 1 stroke, easily, even on a black 50/50 crappy shirt. Now we also need to take a look at your off contact and squeegee pressure, they are just as important as tension. Give us some feedback on what pressure your running in your chopper cylinders if your press has squeegee regulators? If you don't have squeegee regulators...we'll just have to work with what you've got and make up for it best we can with tension, squeegee, off contact and better mesh selection.
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Great post Alan. Great contribution. This whole thread is great. These are the post that will hang around via the bookmarks forever. Hundreds if not thousands will benefit for years to come.
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Ok Alan...to kind of answer your questions...because I'm not really sure how to answer them 8) I set the front back up real quick and took a small video and a few pics.
Here's the video...
http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/Rocfrog/media/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/IMG_8468_zps31703e97.mp4.html (http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/Rocfrog/media/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/IMG_8468_zps31703e97.mp4.html)
And here are the pics....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo1_zps25fa7dfd.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo2_zpsff9f48d5.jpg)
Not real sure how to show off contact....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo4_zpsfb3572af.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo3_zpsb4750654.jpg)
Great post Alan. Great contribution. This whole thread is great. These are the post that will hang around via the bookmarks forever. Hundreds if not thousands will benefit for years to come.
I agree 100%!!!! I think I have learned more on this thread than the whole two years I've been here! I want to thank everyone that has contributed!
Nick
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Not enough pressure. You also need more angle on the squeegee. Slow it down a little also. 15 newtons is fine and from looking at your photos your EOM is fine also.
After your print stroke your screen should be almost clean. You still have a ton of ink on the screen, meaning your not puttin enough pressure on the printing edge. The open area of the screen (the stencil) should be clear of ink after the print. I am guessing you have a ton of ink in the stencil still.
If you look at the printed shirt you will see soft edges. This could be caused by low screen tension (as many have said) but it is also cause by not having enough pressure on the squeegee. Ink will migrate under the screen when printing too soft.
Change those and you should be fine. As long as your ink is mixed well and flows like it should.
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Your off contact also looks way to high. (that also causes soft edges on your print)
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What duro is your squeegee? If its a 60 or lighter (looks like a clear 50 duro or something) that maybe an issue also if your ink is thick. Soft squeegees can't put the pressure down enough for thick sticky inks.
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Hang in there buddy, you'll get it!
What duro squeegee are you using by the way?
Personally I would never have tried to do the back in one screen one color.
Halftones fills up against smallish text isn't going to give you much contrast. Beside
the point now, but something to think of for the future.
My guess is something in your squeegee/angle/speed/pressure/ink. A 110, even with poor EOM,
should have no problem with opacity at P/F/P.
Set up the front again, medium pressure, slow speed, slightly steepish angle, 70 duro squeegee, hard flood,
1/8" off contact. Make sure you're flashing correctly as well. that will get you in the ballpark and you can finetune
from there.
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What duro is your squeegee? If its a 60 or lighter (looks like a clear 50 duro or something) that maybe an issue also if your ink is thick. Soft squeegees can't put the pressure down enough for thick sticky inks.
That's our "new" one and if I remember right it's a 70.
Nick
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Also watching your video after the second stroke you can see the substrate peel away that means not enough tack, when that happened the print will look like crap every time. But like Jon said some more angle a bit slower and try to get the inside of that screen scraped almost clean after a stroke.
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Ok, I can see a few things here. Jon mentioned something that many people don't really pay much attention to, and that is the amount of ink left on the screen after the squeegee passes, not just in the open stencil area. What I'm seeing is the squeegee doing a poor job and unlike Jon, I actually like the angle you have it set to. We tend to print with more straight up angles than some shops. Now a reason there could be that much ink left behind the squeegee could be the squeegee buckling due to excessive pressure and losing that blade edge contact with the mesh. Another reason that happens is because of the ink itself and too soft of a blade for the rheology of the ink, essentially the ink is overpowering the squeegee blade. If you can wipe your finger on the inside of the screen after the print stroke and a bunch of ink is on your finger, you've got to change your blade settings or your blade, meaning your angle, which I think is ok, reduce squeegee pressure, slow the blade down or go to a harder duro blade. The ink is the ink at this point and I wouldn't mess with it if it's a decent brand of ink it's likely not the issue. Also I would slow the print stroke down a little and see if that helps your blade's edge make better contact with the mesh. You're printing at 12-14"/sec from what I can tell, and with low tension and the looks of that ink, it's too fast. We can print thick white at 12-15" on many jobs but we are also using much higher tension and honestly a much better squeegee blade.
It's not HD video but it sure looks like the blade is flexing too much. I can't tell if your off contact is too high or too low, but I would assume that if the blade is buckling and there is still some ink left in the stencil that the OC is too low. And if your OC is low, tension is low, ink is very tacky then that's just a terrible combination. You've got an older sportsman with no squeegee pressure regulators so to take pressure off you have to raise the blade. Jon is a hell of a printer but I can't say I agree with him from what I can see. I think the 15 newtons or less maybe is really holding you back from your main goal here. I would bet you money I could bring one of my screens to your shop and get a one hit white on that pellon with that blade and angle by backing off the pressure and adjusting OC. I'd back off pressure, keep the angle the same, maybe slow it down and see how the ink reacts with those changes. Hopefully this time of year you have time to tinker, cause I spent hundreds of hours after work and between jobs trying to get this thing right and it's not something that just happens. When your adjusting things, do one at a time and print. And once you start noticing a lot less ink left over after the print stroke, and more importantly in the stencil, you'll know you're going the right direction.
I'll have some more info on the new blades I've been using maybe tomorrow. Joe Clarke has added some different duros and a few changes to the original smiling jack blade and I've got to say I love the new blades, especially for printing white on darks.
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Jon is a hell of a printer
Alan makes a great point here.
I am not even close to where I need to be. I am still learning everyday. I had a really hard time printing white in the beginning so I know what your going though. Its frustrating and just makes you want to cry. I was lucky enough to have guys on here help me. Int he end, you will have to put in the time. I have tried other printers settings and still had no luck. There really is a ton of variables. I got to the point that nothing made sense. What made sense to me was a few tests.
Is the stencil clearing? If it is then back off the pressure until it does not clear. Now you know how much pressure is needed. Ounce it doesn't clear then add just a little pressure so it clears again. Now your set.
If it is not clearing then add pressure until it does clear.
There is a ton of ways to get the screen to clear. Angle, speed, air pressure in the choppers, up and down adjustment, off contact, ink, duro of blade. Its a dance you have to do to get it to work. As Alan said adjust one at a time until you see what it does.
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Also watching your video after the second stroke you can see the substrate peel away that means not enough tack, when that happened the print will look like crap every time.
Good eye! That sure looked like the screen didn't release from the substrate until the platens lowered. That'll cause huge problems with print opacity and probably leave nasty release puckers in the ink coat.
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I went back and watched the video again. Alan is right the blade is bending alot. Inkman is also right that you need more tack on the shirt. That blade has to be a 60 duro to bend that much and not clear the screen. Change it out with a 70 or better a 65/90/65. Add a little more angle and slow it down to half the speed your at. Your ink is not worked up enough yet to go that speed. I know that because of the way it picked up the shirt. You also will need to bring the squeegee up so your not smashing it into the pallet. You just want a little bend in the blade. Do that then make small adjustments until the screen clears. If its clearing from the beginning then back off the pressure or speed up until it does not clear. Then adjust it back just a little until it clears again. Then your set. As you run and your ink gets worked up you can take off some pressure or speed up the print speed. (both of these do about the same thing: lessen pressure.) You will want to do this so the print stays nice and bright.
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Good thread indeed. I'll let the young turks continue the discussion but it looks like we are beginning to understand the importance of realising the almost infinite outcomes when we change even one of the interdependant variables. It might be important to note that it can be difficult to understand the impact of change if we change too many things at once.
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Sorry guys I was off for the weekend, painting my sons Boy Scout Troop trailer.
But thank you for the great responses! As far as the Duro of the blades I'm not real sure what we have here, we have probably 7 auto squeegees but I have no idea what duro they are the only reason why I kind of remember that this one is 70 is because it broke and we recently replaced it.
So I think I'll lessen the pressure and slow down the squeegee speed and do another test print and video it. As far as "clearing" the screen goes what am I actually looking for? Is it supposed to be actually clean or just relatively clean? When I print on the manual I can get it really clean and most prints I can pull of in one pass, am I looking for something similar?
As far as the pellon sticking....I had just sprayed down the pallet with spray tac so it was pretty tacky and I don't think I saw it come off...maybe I don't understand what you mean or maybe I jsut didn't catch that....????
Nick
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Sorry guys I was off for the weekend, painting my sons Boy Scout Troop trailer.
But thank you for the great responses! As far as the Duro of the blades I'm not real sure what we have here, we have probably 7 auto squeegees but I have no idea what duro they are the only reason why I kind of remember that this one is 70 is because it broke and we recently replaced it.
So I think I'll lessen the pressure and slow down the squeegee speed and do another test print and video it. As far as "clearing" the screen goes what am I actually looking for? Is it supposed to be actually clean or just relatively clean? When I print on the manual I can get it really clean and most prints I can pull of in one pass, am I looking for something similar?
As far as the pellon sticking....I had just sprayed down the pallet with spray tac so it was pretty tacky and I don't think I saw it come off...maybe I don't understand what you mean or maybe I jsut didn't catch that....????
Nick
If that is a 70 then its worn out. Find a blade you have that is a little stiffer. (get some new blades on order And mark them so you know what you have) Don't print on a pellon. I never understood why people use them. They are more expensive then a shirt (you can use a shirt many more times) and why dial your press into print on them then print on shirts. They don't print the same. Get an shirt to print on. Do your tests on shirts. You want all the ink in the open stencil area so clear. That means not even a tiny spot of ink in the open mesh. Just like you would when printing manually. Its really the same just on an auto you can't feel what your doing to be able to adjust. For tack you really need the shirt to stay down. It should be the same as you do on your manual.
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Trust me your pellon peeled away from the screen, and that is not good for quality not to mention registration. In essence you're trying to get the mesh to just kiss the substrate and quickly snap away and leave the ink behind.
You say the squeegee broke? Seriously I hope you do not mean the rubber, god that should not break unless you are really printing with some serious pressure, even then its would take a lot to brake squeegee rubber.
You are correct as well as your manual screen looks when you clear it is what you should see on the auto, but unlike the manual you cannot feel the print and adjust on the fly it takes tinkering and understanding. Eventually you will get it, I came from printing on a Javelin for many years and clearing a white screen in the cold winter months was next to impossible and a science all in itself. To be honest we couldn't always get white screens to clear in one stroke on that press but that never made me stop trying. Going from that to a chopper A/C head machine brought the fun back in to printing, previously I hated it and did not really realize it till stepping up in the press department.
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As far as the pellon sticking....I had just sprayed down the pallet with spray tac so it was pretty tacky and I don't think I saw it come off...maybe I don't understand what you mean or maybe I jsut didn't catch that....????
Nick
Watch the video over and over from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. you'll see the screen sticks down in the center and then pops off the print. There is a sound right then too that might be the screen popping off.
Basically it looks like the screen stays in contact with the pellon until the platens lowered.
Either:
1 - The pellon lifted and stuck to the screen.
2 - The off contact is too low for your screen mesh tension.
3 - Your mesh tension is seriously low, like well under 15.
4 - It was a trick of the camera angle
The screen should release from whatever you're printing on, following 0.5 - 3" behind the sgueegee, as it does it's print stroke. not stay stuck down in the center and then pop off.
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As far as the pellon sticking....I had just sprayed down the pallet with spray tac so it was pretty tacky and I don't think I saw it come off...maybe I don't understand what you mean or maybe I jsut didn't catch that....????
Nick
Watch the video over and over from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. you'll see the screen sticks down in the center and then pops off the print. There is a sound right then too that might be the screen popping off.
Basically it looks like the screen stays in contact with the pellon until the platens lowered.
Either:
1 - The pellon lifted and stuck to the screen.
2 - The off contact is too low for your screen mesh tension.
3 - Your mesh tension is seriously low, like well under 15.
4 - It was a trick of the camera angle
The screen should release from whatever you're printing on, following 0.5 - 3" behind the sgueegee, as it does it's print stroke. not stay stuck down in the center and then pop off.
Good point about the tension, that would be extremely low tension if the mesh itself is sticking to the substrate.
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Ok 1st off, once again I would like to thank everyone for their time and great feedback!!! And second off I want to say that I understand this is a very time consuming complicated process and I'm not looking for a "quick fix" I just want to be able to understand the process better and how what I'm doing affects the out come in which way.
So with that said.....
As far as the squeegees go, I want to say that these are the same squeegees that came with the press, as far as I know. In the two year I've been here we have only ordered one replacement squeegee (the one in the video because it's a different color) and that was because it broke. We have another one up there that is broke and one more that is starting to.....
Here is a pic of said "broke" one...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo3_zpsaa5b5195.jpg)
Now I slowed down the speed and lessened the pressure and took another video....
http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/Rocfrog/media/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/IMG_8547_zps823401ec.mp4.html (http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/Rocfrog/media/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/IMG_8547_zps823401ec.mp4.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo1_zps216351ad.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo2_zpsef136046.jpg)
Don't print on a pellon. I never understood why people use them. They are more expensive then a shirt (you can use a shirt many more times) and why dial your press into print on them then print on shirts. They don't print the same. Get an shirt to print on. Do your tests on shirts.
Pellon's are what we have here for test prints. I've never really understood it myself, I'll do a test print on the Pellon and it looks GREAT and then it hits the shirt and looks like crap! But we only get test shirts if we mess up one. So our test print shirts are VERY limited!
Nick
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I personally think that video was more like it. The closeup pic has some loss of edge definition due to either poor EOM or the double stroke can do that if your pressure is a bit high. I didn't see near as much bend in the blade and less ink leftover behind the stroke. What did you think of the prints compared to last week?
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Sharp squeegees are pretty important.
Buy a roll of squeegee material and get to it.
Can't be neglecting one of the most important tools in the process.
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First point: GET RID OF THAT RUBBER!
It must be ancient and probably poor quality, I never seen squeegee get so bad its tearing, not here any ways because we replace it as needed.
The video i agree with Alan it looks pretty spot on for what you have, all that could get better with better screens and sharp squeegees.
Two things I noticed tho in your video, one is that your flood stroke is bottoming out at the end and knocking into what ever is at the end of the linear rail,, that could spell disaster for registration and probably hard on the mechanicals. To me it appears you shoot your art work to high up in the screen. Which then causes you to have to go as far as you have to do with the flood. You have nothing else in that screen so lower your art work down another inch at least.
Also the OC looks wicked high, I know its because of lower tension but that right there is some serious OC especially considering the lowest OC is what we all strive for. Higher tension screens will help big time in that area.
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It looks like during the first pass the screen is still sticking to the shirt. Take your ink over to your manual press and print a few shirts. See if the ink is too thick modify it over on your manual then bring it back to your auto. This helped me in the beginning. It eliminated one of the variables. Clean the bottom of your screen also. that can be doing the soft edges.
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Now that I look at it, Mike is right about the artwork being too high on the screen. OC does look high. Get a ruler under there and measure the distance from the bottom of the screen to the pallet if you could. That will get us something concrete on your OC. Print speed doesn't look too much slower to me but it has been a while since I saw the other video.
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I personally think that video was more like it. The closeup pic has some loss of edge definition due to either poor EOM or the double stroke can do that if your pressure is a bit high. I didn't see near as much bend in the blade and less ink leftover behind the stroke. What did you think of the prints compared to last week?
Sorry for the non HD quality video....LOL!! Best I can do with my iPhone. 8) But I think reading the things you guys are saying and just tinkering with it, I think this print is more what I was looking for. I can definitely see a difference in the print and I can clearly see the "clearing" of the screen. And based on this info and these tests I think I can say that everyone here (at this shop) has a this stuff backwards! Any time we run into issues it's always "increase pressure" or "do two swipes" or "just flash it and hit it again" never really looking at the true problems or mechanics of how this should work.
I still have not messed with the off contact at all. A few weeks ago I thought I'd check it based on what the manual stated and it said to put a dime on a penny and the is how far off it should be. Well that didn't really work......I would get it that close on the outer edge of the pallet but it would be touching in the back, so I broke out the level to check the boards and they were all level so I don't really know what is wrong there. So I just put the off contact bar back where it was and left it alone.
Sharp squeegees are pretty important.
Buy a roll of squeegee material and get to it.
Can't be neglecting one of the most important tools in the process.
I have heard this before and I am beginning to see that more and more. But once again that is a cost and is not up to me to make that call. I can only suggest that we do it and see what they say......
Nick
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Your screen need to be parallel(or darned close to it) to the platen. Equal off contact in the front and back and from side to side.
I think your screen mesh is so loose that you're having to compensate with big off contact, high squeegee pressure, and you're still not getting a good rolling snap off following closely behind the squeegee stroke.
I don't see any easy fixes until the screen mesh is tighter. It doesn't have to be super tight, but you're going to need ~15 newtons or above to get away from having to overcompensate with off contact and squeegee pressure.
If the screen isn't coming off the substrate a second squeegee stroke won't do much if anything for you.
You could increase off contact slightly to achieve a good rolling snap-off, but if you go above about 1/8" you start causing other problems.
Somebody send him a tight screen of the same mesh to play with!
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First point: GET RID OF THAT RUBBER!
It must be ancient and probably poor quality, I never seen squeegee get so bad its tearing, not here any ways because we replace it as needed.
I would love too! I'll look into some pricing this week and talk to the owners and go from there.
Two things I noticed tho in your video, one is that your flood stroke is bottoming out at the end and knocking into what ever is at the end of the linear rail,, that could spell disaster for registration and probably hard on the mechanicals. To me it appears you shoot your art work to high up in the screen. Which then causes you to have to go as far as you have to do with the flood. You have nothing else in that screen so lower your art work down another inch at least.
Not sure what you mean that the "flood stroke is bottoming out"...??? The "carriage" (as I'll call it) doesn't actually hit anything, the sensor stops it just before the end. This is how all our screens have always been "burned"...using as we call it "four fingers down" method. I know once again it is not the proper way but it is the only way I've been shown. We have (rolled up in the corner) one of those fancy printed out "guides" on "film" from M&R but I have no clue how to use it!
Nick
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Ok here's some crappy pics of the OC...
Leading, outer...edge of the pallet...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo4_zpsffaf398f.jpg)
back, inside edge of the pallet...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo5_zpsfc6c5c5c.jpg)
Nick
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A quarter inch OC wow not good dude. Best to get that press paralleled but thats a whole other topic.
Yes when the flood gets to the end its a bit abrupt "rough" if your saying thats the way it acts when it hits the stop then cool but really seems to rough to me.
You will probably hear a lot of different measurements from us but I bet we are all with in one inch of each other and that is 7 to 8 inches from top of the screen. I try use 7 6.5 if desperate but rarely. Art at that spot is in the screens sweet spot all over and as I said keeps the print carriage from bottoming out on the flood stroke.
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Tell the powers that be that using old dull squeegees is like a carpenter using a butter knife to cut wood.
Seriously.
This is Chinese made polyurethane but it's light years ahead of what you currently have and probably
the lowest price around:
MSJ Squeegee (http://www.msj-gallery.com/servlet/the-157/silk-screening%2Csqueegee%2Csqueegee-blade%2Cscreen-printing/Detail)
Of course there is better products, no US made that I know of though. But if price is a major issue (it should not be
for something like squeegee) than $75 shipped free is a bargaining point.
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Well the "orange-ish" squeegee that is on press right now (in the video) is the "new one", I think we replaced it last February so it's probably a year old.....is that too old...??? and what does the term "Sharp squeegee" actually mean? Just that is has a "crisp" edge as in not "rounded"?
Nick
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A quarter inch OC wow not good dude.
But like I said, if you look it's like an 1/8" on the outer side and 1/4" on the inside.....But all the pallets are level both front to back and side to side....
Nick
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Crisp is a good word for it, yes.
Run your finger along the edge, it should feel sharp. Not cut you sharp, but not dull either.
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Well the "orange-ish" squeegee that is on press right now (in the video) is the "new one", I think we replaced it last February so it's probably a year old.....is that too old...??? and what does the term "Sharp squeegee" actually mean? Just that is has a "crisp" edge as in not "rounded"?
Nick
I buy our material by the roll and cut down. I always keep a few small pieces lying around to use as a gauge. Just by feeling the edge of the fresh material compared to the used material I can tell when it's dull. We splurge here and get nothing but triple duro but I don't think it's neccesary, any decent new rubber is going to help even just a little.
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Definite parallel issues going on. You need to parallel the pallets to the print carriage then the screen holders to the pallets. It's not hard but you have to understand how to do it before you screw things up. How shall we go about teaching him how to parallel the entire press? Lot's of info out there about it but where to start? You've got an 1/8" up front and 1/4 in the back. You could lower your screen hangers in the back, or raise the hangers in the front, but you got to baseline your pallets and parallel them to each other before you start on the screen hangers.
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A couple years ago I sold a TUF Javelin to a printer in Texas... I shot a crude video showing how to parallel the press.
It may serve some use in this discussion.
! Private video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oacOCWdbtSY#)
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A quarter inch OC wow not good dude.
But like I said, if you look it's like an 1/8" on the outer side and 1/4" on the inside.....But all the pallets are level both front to back and side to side....
Nick
Okay, quick and dirty answer for you:
IF your machine is very level and IF your platens are very level, then you need to adjust the screen clamps hangers on the print heads. The screen clamps hang off of 4 threaded rods on each print head. the threaded rods will have nuts below and above the flanges on each head. to raise one side loosen the bottom nut and tighten the top nut. You're shooting to get the screen as level as possible to the platen, you can't get too level so take your time.
Ideally level all the heads to the same platen, then check the all the platens to one head.
In reality you really want the screens and platens leveled to the stroke of the squeegee/floodbar, you can do this by leveling the platens to a floodbar stroke without a screen in the head and then leveling your screens to those platens.
Good Thread on platen/Screen Leveling (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,6121.0.html)
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A couple years ago I sold a TUF Javelin to a printer in Texas... I shot a crude video showing how to parallel the press.
It may serve some use in this discussion.
! Private video ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oacOCWdbtSY#[/url])
You video is set to private.
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A couple years ago I sold a TUF Javelin to a printer in Texas... I shot a crude video showing how to parallel the press.
It may serve some use in this discussion.
! Private video ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oacOCWdbtSY#[/url])
You video is set to private.
yep...cant see it....
Nick
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A couple years ago I sold a TUF Javelin to a printer in Texas... I shot a crude video showing how to parallel the press.
It may serve some use in this discussion.
! Private video ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oacOCWdbtSY#[/url])
You video is set to private.
Sorry... I've reset the status to "public"
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Northland your video is coming up Private, I would like to see it.
Start from scratch, it doesn't take to long and then you have a starting point. Make sure the image does not move to a different place on each pallet before you start, example using a left chest. Pallet 1 the image is 2" from the side the next one its 2-1/2 and the next is 3-1/4". This will indicate the pallet arms are out, I doubt they are but no sense leveling the press if that needs to be fixed, just check first. If they are ok start by leveling the press, then the pallets and last the screen holders. The pallets need to be paralleled to the press not necessarily to the floor and the screen holder to the pallets.
There are so many variables in printing try to eliminate as many as you can, the machine is probably the easiest to do.
I found the best way to check squeegee sharpness is to draw your thumb across the blade edge, a sharp one you can actually feel the bumps and ridges in your finger print.
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Binkspot it's funny you should mention that because when we do sleeve prints or hip prints with the sleeve boards on the press we have two or three that print a little off and if I remember correctly one of them is almost off the board!
Nick
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It could just be the pallets. I have a set of 5" pallets I cut the one end down to 4"wide for doing pockets. The first two I was off a little when I cut them and they print off to the one side a little. I marked them with an arrow which to place the pocket for center.
Make yourself a test film and screen with five targets on it each with cross hairs and two circles about 2". Lay them out so one lands in each corner of the pallets about 2"-3" in from the edge, the fifth one somewhere in the center. Put the screen in one of the heads, clean pallet cover and print on each pallet. Using an adjustable carpenters square measure each one from the side edge. Measure and compare all the front right corners then the back right. A small change is expected, maybe a 1/16" between all the pallets but not much more. Front to back does not matter at this point, that's as simple as sliding the pallet forward or back.
Doing this with the five targets will also show how much your pallets are out of plane. You will see some of the targets in the print are solid, some barely there, some not printing at all. The same effect as printing a 12"x 16" print.
To check the reg make two or three more of the same screen. Load them in the screen holders with different color inks. Register them, they don't have to be perfect and run once around. As long as the marks line up the same way on every pallet you are good if not you'll see it right away.
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Speaking of one hit white. IN the picture below is a one hit white, on navy fleece, in a 110 static (GASP). Its a down and dirty logo for mechanics they go through these shirts like toilet paper so they like it cheap, been printing these for years with a 110 one hit always comes out near solid white.
So imagine that even a static screen can get a one hit or more often than not a two hit, but this just illustrates its so much more than the screen. I need a to adjust angles and pressures to make it work, and the absolutely perfect OC is needed. If I change the OC just a tiny bit it shows up big time. But in your case your OC is literally not in the picture because your palettes are so far out of parallel. You will always have to use excessive pressure to make up for the lower areas of the platens and as a result the higher areas will suffer.
BTW I would have shot a vid Alan style but Brandt would have freaked on me knowing I did it with an IPAD ;D
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So it sounds like I need to take a day and go thru the press and check EVERYTHING and basically reset it up as if it were new and then go from there, because this press has never been well taken care of, the employees that come thru here just don't care.
We are currently trying to run a job (finally got a little bit of work) and now it's not putting down anywhere near enough ink!!! I had to put the press back to where I had the settings last week just to get it to cover in two hits (print/flash/print).....Vegas gold on Black 100% poly.....
Nick
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Ok so see I'm learning already!!!
Here's some shots of the problems I was talking about above....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo12_zps5ecc78fa.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo16_zps9e44fa7e.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo14_zpsf43369bb.jpg)
This one had been hit 4 times! (print/flash/print/flash/print/flash/print)...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo13_zpsd205f84a.jpg)
Then I decided to try the 2 screens method and see if that helps. So even though I didn't out put the films for that I just reburned it and taped off the screen to reflect the areas that I wanted printed on the 230 screen and the rest on the 160 screen....
And this is now how it looks!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo17_zpsaaec430d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo18_zpsce717c05.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo19_zpsdf23c742.jpg)
it looks a MILLION times better! It still has to go around a million times, but the print looks correct!
Nick
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umm, FYI, that falcon is copyrighted.
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umm, FYI, that falcon is copyrighted.
Its for a local high school, yes I know it's the Atlanta Falcons logo but it is also their logo. As is the case with most school mascots.....
Nick
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Yeah, and they are cracking down on that.
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Fantastic you just did the two screen method and walked away with not only a much better print but did it in much less time, if your powers to be cannot see the benefit in that hit them over the head with a club.
What was the mesh counts for those two screens, I am assuming the first screen was a high TPI hence why your coverage was suffering.
Since you are now doing the two screens, here is a great tip for registering two screens of the same color. Print the first screen then using scotch tape or any clear tape, tape off the registration marks. Print the next screen and you then can easily tell the top ink from the bottom ink and make microing much easier. If you have a registration system disregard this tip lol.
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Fantastic you just did the two screen method and walked away with not only a much better print but did it in much less time, if your powers to be cannot see the benefit in that hit them over the head with a club.
One of the bigger problems is that the "powers that be" are in a completely different building two blocks away and very rarely come over here......
What was the mesh counts for those two screens, I am assuming the first screen was a high TPI hence why your coverage was suffering.
originally the screen was a 230 and it had everything on it, now it is the 230 with just the halftone design and then a 160 with the just the words.
Since you are now doing the two screens, here is a great tip for registering two screens of the same color. Print the first screen then using scotch tape or any clear tape, tape off the registration marks. Print the next screen and you then can easily tell the top ink from the bottom ink and make microing much easier. If you have a registration system disregard this tip lol.
That's kind of how we register our screens as it is. We print the first screen on the pellon then using clear packing tape tape off the whole thing then print the second screen on the tape so we can wipe it off as we make adjustments, then if there are more than two colors we just tape over the second color and move onto the third and so on....
We have no sort of registration system!!! LOL!!! have you been reading this thread!!!??? LOL!!!
Nick
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Fantastic you just did the two screen method and walked away with not only a much better print but did it in much less time, if your powers to be cannot see the benefit in that hit them over the head with a club.
One of the bigger problems is that the "powers that be" are in a completely different building two blocks away and very rarely come over here......
What was the mesh counts for those two screens, I am assuming the first screen was a high TPI hence why your coverage was suffering.
originally the screen was a 230 and it had everything on it, now it is the 230 with just the halftone design and then a 160 with the just the words.
Since you are now doing the two screens, here is a great tip for registering two screens of the same color. Print the first screen then using scotch tape or any clear tape, tape off the registration marks. Print the next screen and you then can easily tell the top ink from the bottom ink and make microing much easier. If you have a registration system disregard this tip lol.
That's kind of how we register our screens as it is. We print the first screen on the pellon then using clear packing tape tape off the whole thing then print the second screen on the tape so we can wipe it off as we make adjustments, then if there are more than two colors we just tape over the second color and move onto the third and so on....
We have no sort of registration system!!! LOL!!! have you been reading this thread!!!??? LOL!!!
Nick
I think you meant to say the first screen had the half tones and the type, then the second was the high lite white with only the words.
Funny thing I got from your place is that your powers to be let you use expensive pellons for test printing yet balk at something that would actually help you seriously improve the work flow. Pellons suck, expensive and not the same substrate material as what you are actually going to print on. They are great tho if one plans on keeping printed samples of everything they do.
If your boss's are not physically present then if I were you I would spend the time needed getting these things worked out, it will help you out and maybe just maybe those boss's will realize your abilities and respect your needs to whip the shop in to shape.
Paralelling that press is probably your next thing that has to change.
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If you parallel that press, then start using some decently tensioned screens then I promise you that your setup times will be cut in half, probably closer to 70%. Our shop is living proof of that stat. We had a terribly calibrated press and 10-12 newton screens and now we are lucky and have better tools for the job and we can do twice as much work as we did back then. Before we added the regi system we were in the neighborhood of doing 50-60% more with the new press and high tensioned screens. I promise you I'm not making this up. I'll be glad to send your bosses the graphs that show those increases. Oh, and no added payroll either.
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Forgot to post a pic of the final print cured....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo19_zps667bf7d0.jpg)
I think you meant to say the first screen had the half tones and the type, then the second was the high lite white with only the words.
Nope that's what I meant.....the origonal screen that I was trying to print thru was a 230 and it had everything on it....
Here's the film...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo18_zps8de43cbd.jpg)
and then we thought well lets try the two screen thing so we grabbed a 160 screen and reburned it and just did this to the 230 screen
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo20_zps38c2c122.jpg)
and the opposite to the 160 screen.....
make since? 8)
Nick
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Funny thing I got from your place is that your powers to be let you use expensive pellons for test printing yet balk at something that would actually help you seriously improve the work flow. Pellons suck, expensive and not the same substrate material as what you are actually going to print on. They are great tho if one plans on keeping printed samples of everything they do.
If your boss's are not physically present then if I were you I would spend the time needed getting these things worked out, it will help you out and maybe just maybe those boss's will realize your abilities and respect your needs to whip the shop in to shape.
Paralelling that press is probably your next thing that has to change.
yep things are done pretty backwards here....
I do believe that I will try tackling the press some time this week or next. Just need to figure out what tools I need to bring in to do it.
If you parallel that press, then start using some decently tensioned screens then I promise you that your setup times will be cut in half, probably closer to 70%. Our shop is living proof of that stat. We had a terribly calibrated press and 10-12 newton screens and now we are lucky and have better tools for the job and we can do twice as much work as we did back then. Before we added the regi system we were in the neighborhood of doing 50-60% more with the new press and high tensioned screens. I promise you I'm not making this up. I'll be glad to send your bosses the graphs that show those increases. Oh, and no added payroll either.
I'm excited to see these changes make big differences like this!
Nick
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Nick, when you come up to my shop tomorrow I will show you how to parallel your press as well the tools you need. It's all pretty basic but having someone explain why they are showing you will be helpful. We will get you dialed in.
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([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo14_zpsf43369bb.jpg[/url])
To me it really looks like you are not shearing the ink very well, that screen should be scraped cleaner after a good print. My first bet is too much squeegee angle. Maybe try them so they are almost standing up straight. Failing that it could also be a too-soft or too dull of squeegee, or over-pressure on the print chopper causing the squeegee to over flex and hydroplane.
The voids you showed in your print:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/New%20coatings/photo13_zpsd205f84a.jpg)
Are very tough to get out once you've flashed the first print, once those voids are flashed in they are almost impossible to fill with subsequent passes, you really need to make sure the first coat is complete coverage and the mesh in your screen is clear of ink.
You're right to separate the tones from the solid colour. It's sometimes tough to see how burning more screens actually saves you time for some prints.
I'd imagine you're really gonna learn a ton with Danny, nothing beats experience.
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I'm assuming that was a poly gold/yellow ink right? One thing that will help a lot with printing those thick inks is warming them up and stirring them up a bit too. If you used a 110 mesh base for the solid text then the 230 with the halftone and text you should be able to do one revolution on the press. For shearing that ink better try steeper angle / more pressure if the squeegee isn't buckling over and consider a triple durometer squeegee (65/95/65 is what I use for poly ink). You will probably need 2 passes still to get that underbase cleared and in the weave as well as on top but it would still be a lot better than where you are at, to get it better you will need better screens and the press better.
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i bet a lot of it is dull squeegees. you will never get a good clean pass with a rounded edge.
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Nick, looks like you are getting some much better prints now man.
Obviously I'm sure you understand you had to do 4 passes on that before because you were using the 230 and trying to get such an opaque print. Then I'm sure you understand why those halftones turned to dodo after crushing ink through there 4 times around. :)
Good EOM on some good (correctly chosen) screens and what a difference. Getting that press into shape will be the final puzzle piece I think.
This thread has been good for sure though! It's very easy for us new guys to not have ANY understanding of not just how but WHY some of these things make the print better and this is helping to explain those things vs "Do this".
And, thanks to EBscreens, I finally ordered me some new squeegee material. ;)
Anyone got a good source for cheap tripple?
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triple has only one p in it, unless you buy it from Brannon...
http://shop.spotcolorsupply.com/Squeegee-Products_c47.htm (http://shop.spotcolorsupply.com/Squeegee-Products_c47.htm)
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triple has only one p in it, unless you buy it from Brannon...
[url]http://shop.spotcolorsupply.com/Squeegee-Products_c47.htm[/url] ([url]http://shop.spotcolorsupply.com/Squeegee-Products_c47.htm[/url])
Looks like you can get it in both varieties.
Either way it should be spelled with THREE p's in my opinion. Trippple p's!
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why stop there, tttrrriiipppllleee!!!
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Hey, I'm down with it. Makes complete sense to me!
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I'm assuming that was a poly gold/yellow ink right? One thing that will help a lot with printing those thick inks is warming them up and stirring them up a bit too. If you used a 110 mesh base for the solid text then the 230 with the halftone and text you should be able to do one revolution on the press. For shearing that ink better try steeper angle / more pressure if the squeegee isn't buckling over and consider a triple durometer squeegee (65/95/65 is what I use for poly ink). You will probably need 2 passes still to get that underbase cleared and in the weave as well as on top but it would still be a lot better than where you are at, to get it better you will need better screens and the press better.
Yes it is our Vegas Gold Poly ink. And we should have probably put it on the dryer to warm it up since it's been subzero temps around here for the past week or so, but just didn't think about it honestly. Because usually after a few passes it warms up and smooths out, but I think on these cold mornings I'm just going to start doing that so I start a habit.
This thread has been good for sure though! It's very easy for us new guys to not have ANY understanding of not just how but WHY some of these things make the print better and this is helping to explain those things vs "Do this".
This statement has been key for me the whole time! Since I have been here it has always been "just do this" never with any rhyme or reason, even on a few other forums. But since everyone has kind of gone into "why" to "do this" I have a better understanding of what is exactly going on vs just doing something because someone said so.
With that said I by no means am now an expert at this and there is still A LOT to be learned and changed (in this shop) so it will be a slow process. But I think in time it will start to show that all the time and research will have payed off.
I think tomorrow I will talk to one of the owners about getting a roll (if not a few rolls) of Squeegee material in so we can replace some, if not all, of our squeegees out for better performing ones.
I can't begin to thank the contributors to this thread enough! I hope that in this somewhere it is helping out more people than just me! And all this started because I found a tension gauge! LOL!!
Nick
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Anyone got a good source for cheap tripple?
This is the one thing you do not want to cheap out on.
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“Be a little careful about your library. Do you foresee what you will do with it? Very little to be sure. But the real question is, What it will do with you? You will come here and get books that will open your eyes, and your ears, and your curiosity, and turn you inside out or outside in.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I BOUGHT a tension meter just to learn what I was being ignorant about before. Definitely an eye opener.
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Anyone got a good source for cheap tripple?
This is the one thing you do not want to cheap out on.
As much as we print? We can be cheap. :)
But seriously why not? My thinking (as of now), is if it cost half as much and last over half as long then I'm a head. Sure changing the blade takes time... but we are time heavy and cash light at this point in the business. :)
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+1 good over cheap. Cost of the most expensive bulk blade you can get is still not much more than your labor scrubbing out a holder and setting a blade properly, the difference between that and crap is less money than lunch. Also cheap blade takes on solvent and swells more easily, and then is damaged much more easily in that state.
Nick, you're not going to know what to do with yourself when you get a couple good squeegees on that press. Don't be afraid to crank down the pressure a little and push your print carriage speeds, with dull edges and soft screens you it's easy to get conditioned to slow down to fix printing problems.
If you can, I'd try to get a few different types and duros of blades, too. I think most auto people on here are doing the triple duro, couldn't see you going wrong with a roll of any commonly available flavor, but you never know when a really soft or hard single duro could come in handy for something crazy.
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
Gilligan if you want to get the best price on all your stuff stick with a supplier that you like. Use them for everything you can. It may be more expensive up front but when they start putting you on a lower pricing tier you will love it.
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
You can call Saati directly and order all sorts of squeegee by the roll or foot at reasonable prices. Molded or cut style.
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
You can call Saati directly and order all sorts of squeegee by the roll or foot at reasonable prices. Molded or cut style.
+1 call Saati! I stupidly tried the cheapo rubber once and right out of the box it didn't even feel correct, it was more flexible than what it should have been. The edge was far from crisp like you would get from Pleiger ir Saati. I will never cheap out on rubber again.
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
You can call Saati directly and order all sorts of squeegee by the roll or foot at reasonable prices. Molded or cut style.
+1 call Saati! I stupidly tried the cheapo rubber once and right out of the box it didn't even feel correct, it was more flexible than what it should have been. The edge was far from crisp like you would get from Pleiger ir Saati. I will never cheap out on rubber again.
That's what she said? ;)
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Heh heh.... "Right out of the box". :o
I should have mentioned that for Nick--Rockstar in Denver is pretty good about keeping decent blade around, and they're reasonable about pricing.
IIRC, they are carrying Saati blades (and mesh and chems, for that mattter)
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Then who has the best price on GOOD tttrrriiipppllleee duro blades?
Gilligan if you want to get the best price on all your stuff stick with a supplier that you like. Use them for everything you can. It may be more expensive up front but when they start putting you on a lower pricing tier you will love it.
Aimen to that!!
I would also suggest if you are a smaller shop find a smaller supplier. Your business will be more important to them, possibly leading to better pricing.
But always keep a second supplier around by throwing them a bone from time to time. You never know when the first one will piss you off, run out of something, etc, etc...
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I completely agree with you guys about the suppliers. Obviously we want people coming to us for embroidery, t-shirts AND promo products and not just one of those.
Problem comes when they don't have what I need.
I need a supplier with CCI, Easyway, Union, ICC (digging this turquoise), Saati, Murakami (S mesh LE), Rutland, Franmar, Siser (easy weed), then there is sign supplies, embroidery supplies... delivery time/fees.
I get free delivery bi-weekly from two outfits (one an hour away the other 2 hours away) as long as I spend $50 bucks with them. That is a nice perk, I don't shop much on price on some of those items because I can get them ASAP when needed. Somethings I can wait for delivery and will worry more about price points at that point.
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Heh heh.... "Right out of the box". :o
I should have mentioned that for Nick--Rockstar in Denver is pretty good about keeping decent blade around, and they're reasonable about pricing.
IIRC, they are carrying Saati blades (and mesh and chems, for that mattter)
Rockstar is who we are using for remeshing and for our diptank and chemicals for the tank. Not sure if I like the fact of continuing to use them if they are providing us with a "faulty" product.....
Nick
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I don't think it's a faulty product, it's probably misuse. When was the last time you changed the blades?
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He's referring to the unmeasurable tension on his screens that he's getting from them. :o
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Of course Nick... you still need to make sure that your meter is actually up to snuff.
You might have perfectly fine screens (for statics) and your meter sucks... don't get in a rush to bad mouth the supplier yet.
BUT, if your meter is functioning... then as Ricky always said "Lucy!!!..."
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I don't think it's a faulty product, it's probably misuse. When was the last time you changed the blades?
"blades".....???
Of course Nick... you still need to make sure that your meter is actually up to snuff.
You might have perfectly fine screens (for statics) and your meter sucks... don't get in a rush to bad mouth the supplier yet.
BUT, if your meter is functioning... then as Ricky always said "Lucy!!!..."
I agree, it will definitely be a discussion with Rockstar not a blame, and we'll go from there.
Nick
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squeegee blades
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Seems to me low remesh tension is the norm, not the exception. Bug them about it and tell them what tensions you're looking for. If you can keep tensions around 18-20 after a decent number of print/reclaim cycles, you'll have an easier process full circle. If they're down in the 8-12 range after a few print/reclaim cycles, it's time to really get on them.
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You are visiting a shop soon correct? Find out if he has a meter and if he does take yours and compare readings on one of his screens, atleast that will rule out wether you have a meter that needs to be calibrated.
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You are visiting a shop soon correct? Find out if he has a meter and if he does take yours and compare readings on one of his screens, atleast that will rule out wether you have a meter that needs to be calibrated.
Yes I'm heading up to Denver tonight to see Danny's shop. Didn't think about that, I'll throw it in the car.
Nick
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That should have been top of your list Nick... that's where all this started. :)
Foo... the tension levels he is talking is below that right out of the box!
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That should have been top of your list Nick... that's where all this started. :)
Foo... the tension levels he is talking is below that right out of the box!
Hey! Cut me some slack, this has been a lot of info to take in! LOL!!! That and Danny and I have been talking about a few other things as well so I don't want to take advantage of a good thing. ;)
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LOL, I hear ya. This is one of the main variables you need to get under control or forget about if it's all good now. :)
Having another knowledgeable printer nearby that is willing to share is a great thing. I have a buddy in my town that has shared with me everything I've ever asked and more. Then I've been to Alan's shop and saw even more stuff... but that is a 6 hour drive. If Alan was local he'd have to get a restraining order on me, I'd be there several times a week! :)
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Still puzzled about super low tension statics. It's clearly a result of not stage or pulse tensioning the mesh before gluing. I guess that's just too much time on the stretcher or something or maybe 99.999% of those purchasing them don't care.
When I stretch a fresh roller frame it does drop from initial but not that much and hardly at all if I do enough and proper stage tensioning. It's not even possible for me to have a screen below 18n at any mesh count I run, even if I just stretched once and never retensioned, it would take forever to get the tension to drop that low. Maybe poor quality, high-elongation mesh is at fault with these statics?
Static stretchers don't look wildly different to me- pneumatic, clamps the mesh v. a lock rod capturing it as with the roller frame stretched on a roller master -same basic principals.
I swear, if I made statics they would all be above the 18n mark and hold that tension for a very reasonable lifespan...or am I missing something here?
Way to get started down the right path Rocfrog, you're lookin' good and we're all in your corner.
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I know they use decent mesh, but I have no idea if there are issues with the equipment or personnel.
That should have been top of your list Nick... that's where all this started. :)
Foo... the tension levels he is talking is below that right out of the box!
I must have missed that in somewhere in the last six pages or so. ;) You should definitely get on them if they have little tension on delivery.
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Ok so I have some more info in my arsenal now, thanks to Danny for giving me the mini tour of his shop last night and providing me with some good feedback/info!!!
We did check my meter with his and mine was off but only by 2n higher than his, so those screens that measured 10-12n were actually 8-10n....
I also got to see/feel a true "ink gasket"! And while ours has gotten better it's still nowhere near where it should be. Same with the squeegee blades......those are bad!!!
The owners are away at some trade show in Denver for the next couple of days so when they get back I think I need to have a talk with them, at least about the screens and go from there....
Thanks again Danny!
Nick
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Ok so I have some more info in my arsenal now, thanks to Danny for giving me the mini tour of his shop last night and providing me with some good feedback/info!!!
We did check my meter with his and mine was off but only by 2n higher than his, so those screens that measured 10-12n were actually 8-10n....
I also got to see/feel a true "ink gasket"! And while ours has gotten better it's still nowhere near where it should be. Same with the squeegee blades......those are bad!!!
The owners are away at some trade show in Denver for the next couple of days so when they get back I think I need to have a talk with them, at least about the screens and go from there....
Thanks again Danny!
Nick
Paralell the press! Most of the other things will be for nought if you keep printing on such an uneven surface.
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Ya we discussed that as well, and I have a better idea of how to do that. So that is on the list as well.
Nick
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Granted his meter could be 2n low and yours is reading correct. Either way you know your meter is working good enough to say that those screens you got are GARBAGE!
Eye opening experience huh?
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Truly eye opening!!! I know have a new out look on this industry. It has also shown me that "it can be done" and it can be done the "right" way with out this much headache.....
Nick
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So small update.....
I talked to the one of the owners about the screens the other day and it went kind of as expected. But at least once I called the company that did the work they are willing to work with us and get them rescreened. Sadly though I was going thru our screen closet yesterday afternoon and it seems like almost all of them are 12n and below! I found a few that 14n-16n but most of them are lower. I even had a few that didn't even move the needle on the gauge!
Other than that, we went thru the emulsion that we have just sitting on the shelf so I could check the "solids content" per Danny's recommendation and aside from most of it being really old everything we have is around 38%. We did have a small sample of Ulano Orange that a rep gave us and it says its around 44% so we used it to coat our last round of screens, and burned a couple of them yesterday and once we got the burn time down they looked really good and I could defiantly could feel a better ink gasket!
Nick
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How old is really old?
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some of the containers had dates on them of 2007!
Now these are the ones we are using everyday to coat. These are ones that we have just had sitting on the shelf, that I assume they have tried over the years and for what ever reason moved on from. The Ulano Orange I want to say the rep dropped off over the summer some time.
Nick
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Dispose of all of them and start fresh. The only one that may be any good is the orange.
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some of the containers had dates on them of 2007!
Now these are the ones we are using everyday to coat. These are ones that we have just had sitting on the shelf, that I assume they have tried over the years and for what ever reason moved on from. The Ulano Orange I want to say the rep dropped off over the summer some time.
Nick
Toss them! Or use them for block out.
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What about the ones that are the two part emulsions? I can't seem to find a date on those anywhere?
Nick
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What about the ones that are the two part emulsions? I can't seem to find a date on those anywhere?
Nick
The shelf life is longer before you add the diazo but it's likely out of date. I bet the only emulsion you have worth using is the orange. I didn't like the orange but it's not bad. I hate the low solids content emulsion. I wish someone had a dual cure that was upper 40's, low 50's solids. Anyone know of any?
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The shelf life is longer before you add the diazo but it's likely out of date. I bet the only emulsion you have worth using is the orange.
Interesting....I wonder what the shelf life is on the two part ones because we only order 4 gallons at a a time and I want to say we only order it once maybe twice a year....
Nick
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@ Alan, the Murakami Photocure Pro HV comes in at 44% solids. River City Graphics in Austin is a dealer.
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The shelf life is longer before you add the diazo but it's likely out of date. I bet the only emulsion you have worth using is the orange.
Interesting....I wonder what the shelf life is on the two part ones because we only order 4 gallons at a a time and I want to say we only order it once maybe twice a year....
Nick
I think most manufacturers say somewhere between 30-60 days after sensitizing a DC is the shelf life, but it's just to cover their behinds. Takes longer to wash out when it's old, and fine details and dots may not work as well, so the older stuff is OK for bold spot designs and such, and unless you store it somewhere hot, will likely at least kind of work for the better part of a year...
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Interesting. We don't mix them right away only as needed, but sometimes (especially now) it can sit in the dark room for a month or more because we don't have any work or not enough to use the whole gallon in a month.....
Nick
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Interesting. We don't mix them right away only as needed, but sometimes (especially now) it can sit in the dark room for a month or more because we don't have any work or not enough to use the whole gallon in a month.....
Nick
Nick, for the work that is typical for you guys, just go with a decent, affordable pure photopolymer/sbq (same thing, photopolymer or "pre-sensitized" are the operative words). They have a shelf life up to a year, are presensitized, shoot quick and typically have the higher solids content. Get one that you like, dial it in, stick with it and keep the stock fresh. Don't order 5gal of it, order 4 one gallons or the like and keep it rotating.
You can get away with using older emulsion but it's going to mess with your head and behave differently from new, then the new will mess with you when it comes in and behaves differently from the old. Better to use it for blockout.
Last off, check out the Ulano EZ films. This is affordable cap film- the price per sheet is competitive with a similar direct emulsion. If you can train your crew to apply it properly (very easy, if they can wash a window they can apply cap film) your screens will have very consistent EOM and minimal pinholes from drying in that nasty ass screen cabinet (you can even dry cap film screens upside down) and it has the long shelf life as well. Not for wb ink and not as durable as direct emulsion but very user friendly. Might make a good bridge as you work on better screen processes.
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What about the ones that are the two part emulsions? I can't seem to find a date on those anywhere?
Nick
The shelf life is longer before you add the diazo but it's likely out of date. I bet the only emulsion you have worth using is the orange. I didn't like the orange but it's not bad. I hate the low solids content emulsion. I wish someone had a dual cure that was upper 40's, low 50's solids. Anyone know of any?
I think CCI might have what you are looking for 46% solids
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=C%252dTEX-HYBRID-DUAL-CURE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION (http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=C%252dTEX-HYBRID-DUAL-CURE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION)
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Last off, check out the Ulano EZ films. This is affordable cap film- the price per sheet is competitive with a similar direct emulsion. If you can train your crew to apply it properly (very easy, if they can wash a window they can apply cap film) your screens will have very consistent EOM and minimal pinholes from drying in that nasty ass screen cabinet (you can even dry cap film screens upside down) and it has the long shelf life as well. Not for wb ink and not as durable as direct emulsion but very user friendly. Might make a good bridge as you work on better screen processes.
Ok I have never seen or heard of this stuff......but I just watched a few video's and that is cool!!! I might ahve to look further into this and see about ordering a sample pack or some to try out.
Nick
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The EZ film is cool, but fragile and sometimes not easy for beginners from what I've seen. I even have a hard time keeping the stencil together from time to time. I'm not all that experienced with it though, and that could have something to do with the fragility. The detail you can hold is awesome, and the ease of dealing with it from a coating standpoint is great for fast screen turnaround.
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Xenon's HD440 is Orange, 58% solids and sells for around the mid fifties.
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Hey Sonny. Do you know how long your screens hold tension? What do they stabilize at?
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Hey Sonny. Do you know how long your screens hold tension? What do they stabilize at?
I'm gonna buy a few of them and test them out. The first look I got at them was good. They really are the best static aluminum I've ever handled and had the highest tension. I've got a few jobs that we repeat a few times a month and they are really simple so our newmans aren't necessary so I was going to buy a few of them and catalog the screens. I'll give an update on them regularly as far as tension goes and how many times we reclaim them, which won't be much at all. I'll reclaim them about every half dozen times we print that job and reburn them.
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Hey Sonny. Do you know how long your screens hold tension? What do they stabilize at?
I'm gonna buy a few of them and test them out. The first look I got at them was good. They really are the best static aluminum I've ever handled and had the highest tension. I've got a few jobs that we repeat a few times a month and they are really simple so our newmans aren't necessary so I was going to buy a few of them and catalog the screens. I'll give an update on them regularly as far as tension goes and how many times we reclaim them, which won't be much at all. I'll reclaim them about every half dozen times we print that job and reburn them.
Looking forward to this!
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
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The EZ film is cool, but fragile and sometimes not easy for beginners from what I've seen. I even have a hard time keeping the stencil together from time to time. I'm not all that experienced with it though, and that could have something to do with the fragility. The detail you can hold is awesome, and the ease of dealing with it from a coating standpoint is great for fast screen turnaround.
I did find a few other threads about it on a few other forums and it seems like it's a hit or miss product. Some people have great success with it and love it while other spend hours on end fighting it and wasting time and money. Not sure if it's right for this shop but I do think it's something I wouldn't mind looking into just out of curiosity....
Nick
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The EZ film is cool, but fragile and sometimes not easy for beginners from what I've seen. I even have a hard time keeping the stencil together from time to time. I'm not all that experienced with it though, and that could have something to do with the fragility. The detail you can hold is awesome, and the ease of dealing with it from a coating standpoint is great for fast screen turnaround.
I did find a few other threads about it on a few other forums and it seems like it's a hit or miss product. Some people have great success with it and love it while other spend hours on end fighting it and wasting time and money. Not sure if it's right for this shop but I do think it's something I wouldn't mind looking into just out of curiosity....
Nick
It's cap film: emulsion poured on a plastic sheet. Works like all the rest of it more or less but it's the only type of cap film with costs comparable to direct emulsion.
A cap film screen will only be as durable as a direct coated screen if you use the direct/indirect method to apply the film but that's just as much work as direct coating in my opinion.
If you apply it correctly it should work fine for a lot of what you do. Get some sample sheets and give it a go. I prefer to use the method of:
lay down a piece of mdf, about the size of the cap film sheet and smaller than the frame on a table
put a sheet of newsprint or any kind of paper on that
lay down the cap film and then slowly lay the wet screen on that, letting the capillary action draw it up.
Let the screen rest there for just a moment so the now wetted cap film can encapsulate the mesh enough to avoid delam.
Take a regular old window squeegee and, with very, very light pressure, skim the excess water off the film.
Peel off the paper (it prevents the carrier sheet from sticking to the board and pulling the film off). Throw it in the hot box and it's ready to go in like 15-30 minutes.
Using a degreaser with a wetting agent, like Ulano's Magic Mesh Prep will assist you but is not necessary, any old degreaser is fine. You want to flood rinse the screen completely and it should be pretty wet when it goes onto the cap film.
We still have a few sheets that get broke out in emergencies, it is hands down the fastest way to get a screen from degreased to coated, dried, ready to shoot.
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Ok I thought I'd update this a little. It has been a ruff couple of months here at the shop...so I'll just do a ruff over view....
We are still battling with the rescreening company to get us correct tensions or at this point even contacting us. So we have found another source (Thanks Danny) and just started working with them, we are having similar issues (not as bad) with them as well but they seem more eager to correct the issue/problem.
As far as emulsions go, I had our MidWest rep send me a few samples to try and out of those we really liked KIWO POLYCOL ONE-COAT and have been using it lately with great results, we have good ink gaskets and our exposure times are down to 43sec! All though the new vendor is pushing Chroma Blue and is going to get us a sample of that to try.
We also finally ordered all new squeegees for the auto press and that made a huge difference!
Nick
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The one coat and chromablue are almost identical in every way. They expose the exact same here at our shop with our light and you can not tell which one is which when they are dried. Right now we have screens coated with one coat and chromablue inside the dark room and nobody but me knows that they aren't the same emulsion. When it comes to which one of those two I am using at that time is price. I was getting the one coat for $197/5 gal for a while but the price went back up to normal.
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interesting! He was pushing it because he says it's a 1:1 coating where currently we are doing a 2:1 to get a decent ink gasket....
Nick
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interesting! He was pushing it because he says it's a 1:1 coating where currently we are doing a 2:1 to get a decent ink gasket....
Nick
Watch out for blanket statements like that.
EOM can change with coating technique, mesh, and type of coater as well as solids content of the emulsion.
According to Alan, the two are similar, so take that salesman's spiel with a grain of salt.
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100% with Frog--take that salesman's spiel with a grain of salt. ;D
Sooner or later I bet the rep will come by--Craig struck me as a rather knowledgeable but modest fellow, compared to most.
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Just to give you guys some idea of 1/1 versus a 2/1 coating with kiwo one coat and how far off someone is by just saying a 1/1 will give you proper EOM is this: a 205 Newman roller mesh coated 2/1 will only get you about 5 microns EOM with me and my screen guy coating. Over the last 3 days I've coated about 100 screens with 4 different emulsions and measured the results and only a few mesh counts would have given me a sufficient EOM with a 1/1. There are combos like Saati PHW red on 83/71, 135/48 and 150/48 and chromablue/one coat on 135/48 and 150/48 that will be close to the right EOM with a 1/1. One coat on a 150/48 gives you about a 40-45 micron stencil with a 2/1 and that same technique will get you only 10-15 microns on a 156/64. So the normal mesh counts that most suppliers force you to use will in no way allow you to have a decently thick EOM with a 1/1 technique. On the open mesh counts with thin threads, yeah, a 1/1 with one coat and chromablue will give you a borderline 20% EOM but usually a 2/1 is needed even for those thin thread mesh counts.
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This is a great conversation and I present another perspective on 1 on substrate side first /1 on ink well side last coating. Consistency in coating technique is everything in achieving optimum repeatable EOM. Kiwo One Coat & SAATI PHU will both give excellent EOM when coated 1/1, yes 1/2 coating will give increased EOM but in reality may yield little or no benefits in ink on the shirt.
With the following method, 1 /1 coating using the round edge of a scoop coater, with a high solids 42-48% emulsion, 78 degree emulsion & mesh, 22-26% humidity controlled screen room environment, slooooowwww manual coating stroke, dried substrate side down until no residual moisture is detectable by Aqua check, about 3 hours with 75 screens in the batch & fully exposed/shot to a 6/7 on a 21 step scale will yield on a 110/80 30N mesh 24% to 28 % EOM. Remember to ALWAYS measure EOM on an exposed screen because unexposed emulsion is compressible and will yield inconsistent results,
If you change that to a 1/2 coating with the same parameters EOM on the 110/80 30 N mesh will increase to 60-65%. However, this does not directly equate to increased ink on the shirt because the ink volume in AP (All Purpose) plastisol is controlled by mesh thickness more than emulsion. Only in the area right next to the emulsion shoulder will you have an ink deposit comparable to the emulsion thickness. This statement is different when using HD and specialty inks.
With that said 1/2 coating with high solids emulsion can lead to increased exposure times, wasted coating time, reclaim problems due to underexposed emulsion, wasted emulsion down the drain and scrumming problems while pursuing increased ink on the shirts. I get 42-45 coated 23x31 screens per gallon with 1/2 and 55-56 per gallon with 1/1, that is a lot of emulsion difference with marginal ink on garment improvement.
Results for 140/64 30 N mesh with a 1/1 show an even higher EOM of 37-40% and a 1/2 will yield EOM in the 62-66% range.
Looking forward to more info from the trenches guys .
Kitson
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Also flipping the screen so that the next pass of the coater is going the "opposite" direction from the previous pass is beneficial for "Bridging" which is the 1st goal of coating.
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That's impressive that you can get those types of numbers with just a 1/1. A 1/1 coating with Saati PHW red on a 110/81 at our shop yields about 10 microns EOM which is about half of the % that we are shooting for. I'd like to see 30-40 microns on a 110/81. I still think stencil thickness plays a large role in ink deposit thickness just not as much as I used to in that once you get to a certain EOM you stop seeing the benefits and the further away from the stencil edge on those larger designs the benefits are lost. I do think we get better results out further from the stencil edge than many shops because of our tension levels, squeegee blades, pressure and squeegee speed. It's all about perceived opacity and the fact that we get a more opaque print from a 123/55 than we do a 123/71 is proof of that even though the 123/71 should have deposited more ink. Maybe it does but is more of that ink inside the fibers of the shirt because you had to use more pressure and less print speed? I say yes because I see it everyday and that's why we prefer printing white ink through thinner thread mesh.
There was a time when I thought 60-70% EOM was better than 25-30% but now I know that we are wasting emulsion because much of what we print can't take advantage of the stencil thickness as much for ink deposit thickness. I think the line for underbase and screens used for printing white ink perform better in the 25-30% range in the long run yet most other mesh counts and colors get by with 20%. High mesh and halftones work best at our shop with 12-15% EOM. I do think more now days that those really thick stencils we used to make we're wasting emulsion for the most part. There were some designs that it worked great with the thick stencil but most of them do not need it.
Though I technically agree with Greg on most things he said I do think that there is a lot more that goes into those statements and things are different from shop to shop obviously. They can achieve better EOM with 1/1 coatings than we can at our shop with the emulsion we use. The numbers I posted were fresh and with a calibrated thickness gauge so I know my numbers are correct but there are so many other factors that go into it that I can't use Greg's numbers as a goal at my shop. I coated a few mid mesh screens like 195/55 with he Saati PHW red and I had to coat 3/2 to get 10 microns EOM, which is only about 12-15% EOM, chromablue gave me barely 5-8 microns at a 2/1. I use the glisten method for everything and most of the time on mid to high mesh it yields a thinner stencil than I want but adding another coat will bump the stencil thickness up too high and we are wasting emulsion. I could find that perfect speed and pressure that will give us exactly the EOM we're looking for but there is too much variation with humans that I'm afraid I'd be chasing my tail trying to get everyone that coats screens to use exactly 2"/sec speed and exactly 5lbs pressure on the scoop coater.
And to Sonny's point, I've measure screens that I have flipped between coats to screens I didn't and I got no measurable difference in EOM. There were only a few microns difference between them which many other variables can make a bigger impact than flipping them. That's not to say it doesn't do something to increase the stencils quality, but it does nothing to change EOM. Maybe it helps rz or the stencil edge after exposure but I haven't been able to measure those variables to see if its worth flipping the screen. I know the shops out there that have the best stencils probably use an automatic scoop coater and I don't think many of them flip the screen between coats but I could be wrong.
Another good discussion here at TSB.
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you just blew my mind Mr. K....keep it coming guys.
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Wow! That is a lot of great info from Alan (as always) and Kitson, thank you!!
I know there is a billion variables from shop to shop and I have now way to actually measure anything here other than screen tensions because we don't have any fancy tools here. So everything I go off of is either based what you guys or someone else has told me or what I see or think here in the shop, but that is iffy at best because I know next to nothing and have been learning a ton along the way! Like I have no idea what that second number is that you guys keep posting after the screen mesh #....example "123/55"....???
We coat all our screens with the same emulsion and they are all coated the exact same way......2:1 and all currently with the KIWO ONE-COAT. Then they sit in our "dark room" (basically a small closet, no dryers or climate control of any sort) for at least two hours before use. Then all our screens are exposed for 43sec which was determined by achieving a clean wash out to #7 on the SAATIprint 21 step gauge.
Nick
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Wow! That is a lot of great info from Alan (as always) and Kitson, thank you!!
I know there is a billion variables from shop to shop and I have now way to actually measure anything here other than screen tensions because we don't have any fancy tools here. So everything I go off of is either based what you guys or someone else has told me or what I see or think here in the shop, but that is iffy at best because I know next to nothing and have been learning a ton along the way! Like I have no idea what that second number is that you guys keep posting after the screen mesh #....example "123/55"....???
We coat all our screens with the same emulsion and they are all coated the exact same way......2:1 and all currently with the KIWO ONE-COAT. Then they sit in our "dark room" (basically a small closet, no dryers or climate control of any sort) for at least two hours before use. Then all our screens are exposed for 43sec which was determined by achieving a clean wash out to #7 on the SAATIprint 21 step gauge.
The second number is the thread micron size (Thickness)
Nick
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Alan Sonnys point doesn't do anything for EOM it is done to help the emulsion reach all corners of the thread knuckles. I spent many many years coating that way because it is what I was taught by a guy that specialized in extremely high mesh screens for a different industry. I learned that in that case making sure you have good penetration of the knuckles is important but after seeing so many auto coaters being sold and obviously they do not flip the screen I realized there is no real point to flipping a screen for t-shirt printing.
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Kind of back on topic since Printficient said that second number is the thread size, the new supplier sent me the "chart" they use to base screen tensions on and it has that number listed but how do I know what we have....?
Here is the chart he sent me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/ScreenTensionChart_zps8cd22863.jpg)
Is this chart pretty standard? Is this what I should b looking for? I thought that anything lower than 160m should be 20n-25n and 160m and up should be 25n-35n.....
Nick
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Those are the standard mesh counts that most suppliers force upon you. Those mesh counts will simply get the job done, but if you really want to print with the highest quality and do it as fast as possible with very little pressure then those mesh counts will hold you back compared to what's out there. If you bought a 110 from these guys then you have a 110/80.
The tension level is very mesh count specific and can vary from manufacturer. A 156/64 can go up to a much higher tension level than a 150/48.
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(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/SRI%20Pics/19E63D27-7500-4FEC-B05C-4932B3C9279D.jpg)
Whoops, didn't mean to do that. But there is a dot on a 135/48 if anyone is interested.
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Those are the standard mesh counts that most suppliers force upon you. Those mesh counts will simply get the job done, but if you really want to print with the highest quality and do it as fast as possible with very little pressure then those mesh counts will hold you back compared to what's out there. If you bought a 110 from these guys then you have a 110/80.
The tension level is very mesh count specific and can vary from manufacturer. A 156/64 can go up to a much higher tension level than a 150/48.
Alan, what tension levels do you achieve on your 150-S smartmesh? I just did some Murakamis Smartmesh but it`s a 150-T got it up to 35N without a problem but I assume the 150-S is thinner then the 150-T.
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I'm sure Alan will reply as well, but I tension my 150S up to 30 and I don't go any higher. Once in production it relaxes down to around 23-24 and periodically I'll pull a bunch of clean screens and retension back up to 28-29N. The S mesh is fragile, and you have to have your corners softened perfectly absolutely no burrs on the channels.
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I have several questions here.
1. What is the magnification on the loupe?
2. DO NOT RETENTION RETENTIONABLE SCREENS? Did I read it correctly?
I read a Halftone Article in the mid march printwearmag.com issue. On page 37 (or there about), the author states we should not retention our frames.
Does anyone here have problems with retentioning issues with their halftone dots?
I have the wood grain moire as he stated.
Thanks
Anthony
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I suggest reading this:
http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Stretching-S-and-LX-Meshes.pdf (http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Stretching-S-and-LX-Meshes.pdf)
and following this for tension:
http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf (http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf)
I hi-lighted all of the mesh counts we use to follow the tension. I keep it at the highest recommended for a couple hours(after doing a couple lower tension stretches) on the roller table then lower down to where I will be tightening the bolts and leave it there for 10-15 min.
I have had bad luck with stretching the 135S though, so instead of going all the way to the high end I will be settling with 22N when bolts are tightened.
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I take the 150/48 up to 28 newtons and then run it through production once then retension at least once. The S thread is better at reaching a work hardened stage than other mesh that I have used. I'm not sure why but it doesn't drop as far after the initial tension and I don't have to retension 3-4 times like I do other mesh.
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Agree with Alan, the S is very stable compared to every other mesh I've used.
Use the recommended max tensions on Murakami's chart, they're legit. You can get away with higher but you will shorten the lifespan of the mesh relative to how much over max recommended you go.
The 135/48 and the 310/30 are the most delicate of the bunch that we've used. Great, no, amazing mesh counts but difficult to maintain even in a shop like ours where screens are never outside a mesh safe space.
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Again this is all great info!
The new supplier should be back up tomorrow with our new remeshed again screens also to fix our piece of crap brand new exposure unit! We had to go back to our old unit and didn't realize how much of a difference the new one was even when it was only half way working.
Nick