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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Colin on February 19, 2018, 09:51:52 PM
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This is kinda split from Ron Pierson's thread about a buggy rip/illustrator combo
I have copy/pasted my comments regarding Vector files not printing clearly. Dan had mentioned he would respond in a separate thread and I figure what ever info he has, its worth it for everyone to know, even if I'm being a dunce ;)
I have watched printed edges get wonky... It is an issue in the rip (regarding trapping not looking consistent with amount of edge overlap). I have changed how I do my base whites now, but I used to do a .5 trap with a color that I wont print. Then take my white base and select multiply so I could send over a single file to the rip. That would throw the rip a curve ball on occasion... I have watched fine lines disappear that way and more complex pieces literally disappear.
I have switched up what I do now, I actually remove the trapped area from the base so it is physically smaller, but I have still seen things go... oddly... If I try to give a measurement to the change its close to the equivalent of 1 or two pixels at 600 dpi...
Right now I have noticed on a single color image my small circle R images are getting egg shaped. But its not a complete circle, the leading edge of the circle looks like it disintegrated into dots, then prints fine, then the back edge gets fuzzy....
But I am also looking really closely at what we are producing and taking pictures of my stencils.... I think they look neat.
Its hard to capture this one properly with my phone... 225s mesh and the circle r is really tiny. The other one is my registration mark. Line width is 1 point I think, I will check tomorrow.
Edit: I should mention humidity in the room is always below 40% and above 30%. Screens are always dry coming out of a controlled booth averaging 35%-40% humidity.
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The registration mark: You can also see some ink droplet splatter that was there, but not visible in the other photo.
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This is kinda split from Ron Pierson's thread about a buggy rip/illustrator combo
I have copy/pasted my comments regarding Vector files not printing clearly. Dan had mentioned he would respond in a separate thread and I figure what ever info he has, its worth it for everyone to know, even if I'm being a dunce ;)
I have watched printed edges get wonky... It is an issue in the rip (regarding trapping not looking consistent with amount of edge overlap). I have changed how I do my base whites now, but I used to do a .5 trap with a color that I wont print. Then take my white base and select multiply so I could send over a single file to the rip. That would throw the rip a curve ball on occasion... I have watched fine lines disappear that way and more complex pieces literally disappear.
I have switched up what I do now, I actually remove the trapped area from the base so it is physically smaller, but I have still seen things go... oddly... If I try to give a measurement to the change its close to the equivalent of 1 or two pixels at 600 dpi...
Right now I have noticed on a single color image my small circle R images are getting egg shaped. But its not a complete circle, the leading edge of the circle looks like it disintegrated into dots, then prints fine, then the back edge gets fuzzy....
But I am also looking really closely at what we are producing and taking pictures of my stencils.... I think they look neat.
Its hard to capture this one properly with my phone... 225s mesh and the circle r is really tiny. The other one is my registration mark. Line width is 1 point I think, I will check tomorrow.
Edit: I should mention humidity in the room is always below 40% and above 30%. Screens are always dry coming out of a controlled booth averaging 35%-40% humidity.
to my eye, that is the head not firing properly. your horizontal lines are clean, but the verticals are out of sync. What does the test pattern look like on that machine? can you show us a picture of it?
are you running bidirectional? try uni and see if it gets better.
just guessing here . . .
pierre
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That's a pretty good guess Pierre. You are very hot on the trail.
This is not a RIP issue at all. It has to do with voltage that fires the heads. Too much or if it's out of sync slightly, it can cause this. I'll have to get back into ours to give better direction. This can be a little challenging to isolate without looking at printed test results as to what direction to go in. It's voltage related and could also be temperature related as well. Not all machines work best at the default settings and is why it may take some time after install before seeing these smaller, finer issues. It has to be synchronized with the horizontal alignment and temp. That alignment requires some testing and is out of the normal calibration test we do at installs. It's called "left and right bias" calibration and is done in the Printer Control program.
The challenging part is that let's say your head (temperature) has been working fine, and your NP (negative pressure) may have been fine as well. Adjusting another area like voltage may slightly skew these other setting (a tad). That may or may not be noticeable. Things like this may need adjusted (fine tuned) by a tech on site.uf it's not very impactful in a negative way overall, you may want to just wait till a tech happens to be in your area and they can make a pit stop. If it were to be a charge, it could be a split on cost since they are in your area. You have to request that and explain the issue. They don't randomly stop in unless there is a need.
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Yay I'm not crazy! :)
I'm glad you guys could see what I was trying to talk about with my blurry cell phone pics.
I will talk with the owner and give my local rep a call about it.
I will try and take a pic of my test lines this morning... again, cell phones....
Thanks!!!
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you can shoot through a jewelers loupe and get a pretty decent shot of it FYI. I've done it through a microscope and it works.
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I have 10x magnifies at work that I use to assist.... its the "focus" part that my phone decides to throw a fit about...
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I'm assuming this is on an I-Image. What ink are you using?
We had problems like this when we were using the K Ink.
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Currently using D2 ink.... but I was told very recently that that ink is harsh on the print heads.. calling M&R today to get the skinny.
Single Head.
Registration mark is a 1 point line thickness.
Unidirectional
Grey 12 passes+
Speed: low
Step: 2336
1200x900
We asked for it to be set up for best quality at all times.
We have just under 3000 prints on our machine and it has been installed for jussssst over 1 year.
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one more
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I'm assuming this is on an I-Image. What ink are you using?
We had problems like this when we were using the K Ink.
A change in ink can help hide this due it a change in ink thickness/thinness but yea, the issue is still there.
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Currently using D2 ink.... but I was told very recently that that ink is harsh on the print heads.. calling M&R today to get the skinny.
Single Head.
Registration mark is a 1 point line thickness.
Unidirectional
Grey 12 passes+
Speed: low
Step: 2336
1200x900
We asked for it to be set up for best quality at all times.
We have just under 3000 prints on our machine and it has been installed for jussssst over 1 year.
We are using the D2 ink also for about a year and also about 3000ish prints. It's a good ink. (the best yet) since I left M&R.
They keep developing (the all perfect ink) that will work in all cases. I doubt there is one perfect ink in all cases, but it's worth attempting.
Some people are still using the K ink (and I think that was the 2nd version). I liked that. It was thinner and to me, seemed to provide the best image detail in shadow tones. Some shops couldn't use it as easily due to their particular location and environment in their business. It would spread more easily in colder/damper environments. Therefore the new D ink and next, the D2 ink then D2a and now this newer latest version. All getting more and more improved along the way to withstand each different variable better.
My suggestion on the D2a ink is to do more of your daily and weekly maintenance. We do a lot of comfort colors (like 90% of all shirts) and no matter how clean our area is, over time, lint builds up under the head plate...and we now clean that head plate twice a week. Daily and weekly maintenance is a nozzle check every day, and to actually work on clearing any issues in the noz check each day. Then, be sure to clean your wipers. Like anything, the more you leave air and gunk in the heads blocking a nozzle, the more than ink eventually dries (air contact) and creates a bigger clog. Not unclogging small negative areas in the noz check "clogs" is what gets people in trouble. They think oh, I can run this all day/well its fine...but they are building and creating a head problem.
Colin, That is a perfect noz check. As you can see, you have no ink issue. It's not your ink. It prints noz checks fine. It's when you are imaging art over a larger area that you will see these slight imperfections. Also note, any small speckles "spray" outside your image like you had shown in one of the images will not hold in the screen.
Also note, This is an area where (what I described) can and cannot be the problem. It looks like it to me, has all of the tell tail signs, but it's happened before, where it ended up being something completely different that provided the same or very similar results. In the end, it will take some testing.
This can happen from shifting the printer around from one area to another, could be that it needed a tighter calibration at install, could be that somehow a screen or something bumped the head casing therefore jolting the print head, could have been from shipping, etc. could be a half a dozen things that caused it. It's minor, but does matter in some areas as you've noticed. An ink change could also hide the issue. Thicker more dense ink could keep the area in question more gathered and less speckled for example.
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Currently using D2 ink.... but I was told very recently that that ink is harsh on the print heads.. calling M&R today to get the skinny.
Single Head.
Registration mark is a 1 point line thickness.
Unidirectional
Grey 12 passes+
Speed: low
Step: 2336
1200x900
We asked for it to be set up for best quality at all times.
We have just under 3000 prints on our machine and it has been installed for jussssst over 1 year.
sorry, this does not tell me anything. If Dan says it's good, then it's good. Just out of curiosity, does anybody have a better picture of a good nozzle check? I'd like to see and understand the pattern it's printing. . .
pierre
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ok, so if I understand what Dan said correctly, the chance of it being a gummed up print head/a print head in need of cleaning is fairly high.
I had my guy go through the cleaning procedures and created a little test image that repeated across a 14 inch wide area. What I found was that the problem has not gone away... but its not consistent across the screen (it wasn't consistent before either). It's most prominent on the side where the print head begins its passes. But, its also most prominent when the line thickness is very thin... the pics I will attach are .25 point line weights. the 1 point line weights did not has as much splatter and airiness to the ink deposit, but they did have the "halo" effect on the side the print head travels.... I feel like I need a map :)
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and the screen when it was shot. This is a 150s mesh.
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Thanks to everyone who has pitched in with assistance! I have it penciled in to call M&R tomorrow, to discuss ink upgrades and what they think could be going on with the print head... today has kinda gotten away from me....
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Move the head all the way to the left, open the door and put your phone inside with the flashlight on, look at the plate the heads are mounted in. I bet somewhere on or around it, its gummed up. You can clean it with the pink solution just dont touch the head. I have been through every single issue known to man with this unit. Also, upgrading ink......in my opinion and some other professionals who dont want to be named, DONT upgrade. D2a is probably the best ink they have ever made. Some will argue this, but after switching to Type 6, we had to switch back almost immediately. Food for thought!
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My guy who does the cleaning is a little bit ocd.... and the nozzle checks are super clean, but I will check it out with him tomorrow.
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My guy who does the cleaning is a little bit ocd.... and the nozzle checks are super clean, but I will check it out with him tomorrow.
nozzle checks will still be clean if its gummed up. Hope you get to the bottom of it!
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Me TOO!
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Move the head all the way to the left, open the door and put your phone inside with the flashlight on, look at the plate the heads are mounted in. I bet somewhere on or around it, its gummed up. You can clean it with the pink solution just dont touch the head. I have been through every single issue known to man with this unit. Also, upgrading ink......in my opinion and some other professionals who dont want to be named, DONT upgrade. D2a is probably the best ink they have ever made. Some will argue this, but after switching to Type 6, we had to switch back almost immediately. Food for thought!
This.... is interesting. I am familiar with T6 and know others using it. About to switch but then why fix something already working. It seems to vary from machine to machine. Find your ink and stick with it?
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Have you tried "Restore Settings" yet? Sometimes ours "forgets" and starts double imaging.
Air in the lines?
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I have not "noticed" anything that would seem like air in the line. I guess its always possible if they were micro bubbles... But I assume they would have an additive in the ink that would keep it from doing that.
I have not touched any settings. I consider myself a newbie when looking through it all.... like, I know and understand enough to get myself into real trouble messing around in there....
As for the right ink.... I honestly just want to use what performs the best and causes the fewest issues possible.
I live in the pacific northwest and it gets cold/hot/and wet most of the year. The unit is in a temp/humidity controlled room and I am always looking at the hygrometer sitting on top of the unit...
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It's not something in the airlines based on the Noz checks. Again, those are perfect.
Restoring settings will not improving this.
Cleaning the head plate (don't touch the heads) is always a good thing to check. Make sure it's done often enough. Your guy prob does.
When I saw this, it was on the far left of the art and far right of the art, not in the middle. Beginning and end. Sometimes just the left, sometimes just the right. Not the whole area, just some smaller sections would have this.
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Dan: What were you able to do to fix what you saw?
The incomplete image - now that I know what I am looking for/looking at - has caused us some issues on press. Always on smaller design pieces - that I have been aware of. We end up fighting registration because of it...
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Update:
We are getting a new headboard (motherboard looking thing) and it was suggested we get a new print head... just... in..... case.
I will update this after installation!
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Update:
We are getting a new headboard (motherboard looking thing) and it was suggested we get a new print head... just... in..... case.
I will update this after installation!
How old is your unit, just out of curiosity?
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It was installed juuuuust over 1 year ago. We have just under 3k images.
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Update:
We are getting a new headboard (motherboard looking thing) and it was suggested we get a new print head... just... in..... case.
I will update this after installation!
most likely not the issue. They tried to tell us the same thing. It's the ink.
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I did ask about this whole ink thing!
Our room is fairly climate controlled. Its between 65-75 degrees, the room has its own heating/cooling control panel. We know that the humidity will be around 25% on snowy/dry days and up to 40% during the wet season. The most I have ever seen it is 45% after reclaiming with the barrier curtains open...
So, with that info, using the T9 for emulsion, it was their opinion that we were sitting pretty with the ink. If we were in a hotter more humid climate, then we would change inks.... Beyond the info I have read here and what I have gotten from M&R, that's the extent of my real knowledge...
Remember, we are also not getting clean edges. Its primarily the "Leading Edge" of the image where it happens, so the first nozzle spray on that side..... it usually is cleaner after that - not always and no rhyme or reason we can see.
So, if the ink is reacting to static or a very narrow window of humidity..... wrawrrr.... so frustrating....
I just want the damn thing running clean again.
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It has to be super frustrating going through these issues with this equipment which has been in production for some time. Crazy thing is no matter what emulsion, mesh or exposure I use my wax machine just chugs along. 2k screens imaged not a single clogged head, banding or any performance issues. I hope you get this all sorted out maybe Rich will chime in and get this all sorted out for you quickly.
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Don't get confused. This issue he is having (while frustrating for anyone having it) happens almost never.
There is this instance, and only one other that I am aware of since I left M&R out of all machines out there. So don't use this very rare issue as an opportunity.
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I did ask about this whole ink thing!
Our room is fairly climate controlled. Its between 65-75 degrees, the room has its own heating/cooling control panel. We know that the humidity will be around 25% on snowy/dry days and up to 40% during the wet season. The most I have ever seen it is 45% after reclaiming with the barrier curtains open...
So, with that info, using the T9 for emulsion, it was their opinion that we were sitting pretty with the ink. If we were in a hotter more humid climate, then we would change inks.... Beyond the info I have read here and what I have gotten from M&R, that's the extent of my real knowledge...
Remember, we are also not getting clean edges. Its primarily the "Leading Edge" of the image where it happens, so the first nozzle spray on that side..... it usually is cleaner after that - not always and no rhyme or reason we can see.
So, if the ink is reacting to static or a very narrow window of humidity..... wrawrrr.... so frustrating....
I just want the damn thing running clean again.
We get the same issue but on on a different CTS. The leading edge of the image looks pretty terrible. It`s mainly because the nozzles don`t start firing proper. We found a way to work around it for now. We add at the very far right hand side of the image a black line 3mm thick that runs the full hight parallel to the image. That way the nozzles start firing once the print head reaches the main image area. Works fairly often, but still we have to lay a lot of ink down to remedy the nozzle issues. Otherwsie the image would not be opaque enough.
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Is this anyone of the M&R machines? You don't need to tell me who if any other brand. I'm just curious to see if it's an M&R. To hear that there is yet another, would be just so odd to hear about it. If it's more than a few freak happenings, then It's possible that is was something that just started popping up near the end of my working there, but before that, I had only one experience with it and Colin's is the 2nd (almost two years later). This would bug the crap outta me to figure it out again. Perhaps the answer was a head board. (I know I was told to replaced the head board there at that shop. but I don't remember if that solved it or we needed to move on to something else. My thoughts the whole time was that it was related to the firing voltage but I'm human so I could have been wrong and it was a new issues. We didn't really know what direction to go in at the time. So maybe they found what was happening with it after I left. eventually, they would, but again, never heard of it happening again till Colin posted.
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Is this anyone of the M&R machines? You don't need to tell me who if any other brand. I' just curious to see if it's an M&R. To hear that there is yet another, would be just so odd to hear about it. If it's more than a few freak happenings, then It's possible that is was something that just started popping up near the end of my working there, but before that, I had only one experience with it and Colin's is the 2nd (almost two years later). This would but the crap outta me to figure it out again. Perhaps the answer was a head board. (I know I was told to replaced the head board there at that shop. but I don't remember if that solved it or we needed to move on to something else. My thoughts the whole time was that it was related to the firing voltage but I'm human so I could have been wrong and it was a new issues. We didn't really know what direction to go in at the time. So maybe they found what was happening with it after I left. eventually, they would, but again, never heard of it happening again till Colin posted.
Not sure if this was related to my reply but if it was no we don`t run an M&R.
Now what you are saying about the firing voltage sounds interesting. I`m curious to know what would effect the firing voltage. I think on our CTS we are talking about 11V DC that`s at least what`s written on the cartridges if I remember it right.
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Is this anyone of the M&R machines? You don't need to tell me who if any other brand. I' just curious to see if it's an M&R. To hear that there is yet another, would be just so odd to hear about it. If it's more than a few freak happenings, then It's possible that is was something that just started popping up near the end of my working there, but before that, I had only one experience with it and Colin's is the 2nd (almost two years later). This would but the crap outta me to figure it out again. Perhaps the answer was a head board. (I know I was told to replaced the head board there at that shop. but I don't remember if that solved it or we needed to move on to something else. My thoughts the whole time was that it was related to the firing voltage but I'm human so I could have been wrong and it was a new issues. We didn't really know what direction to go in at the time. So maybe they found what was happening with it after I left. eventually, they would, but again, never heard of it happening again till Colin posted.
Not sure if this was related to my reply but if it was no we don`t run an M&R.
Now what you are saying about the firing voltage sounds interesting. I`m curious to know what would effect the firing voltage. I think on our CTS we are talking about 11V DC that`s at least what`s written on the cartridges if I remember it right.
Yes, that reply was pertaining to your post.
The M&R firing voltage is at 17.5 standard install, but they can on occasion, need raised or lowered (but not by much). Like down to 14.5 and up to 19 I think is/was the max and min at the time. (DON"T DO THIS ON YOUR OWN unless instructed by a Tech). EVER. One mistake can lead people down into a rabbit hole. What this whole thread here is talking about, should be evaluated and adjusted by a Tech or instructed by a Tech.
Environment makes a difference. Too dry and you can imagine if voltage is a bit too high for that area, ink can fly a little loose or less controlled and maybe can be affected by static electricity in the air. (not sure there, haven't seen it... just assuming). Keep i mind, raising or lowering the voltage is not something we would need to do. Like hardly ever. For the most part, the setups on the machines as they come are dead on and no tweaking needed. Still there are some extreme situations where you need to adjust the machine a little to a particular need.
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Morning Update:
We have replaced the head board and done some tests. I don't think its done anything to improve our issues.
I have attached a pic that actually is in focus!
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I have an I image ST and it is showing similarities to Colins machine albeit not as bad.
An M&R tech team viewed our machine and made changes , and it made it a bit worse.
I just checked the voltages they set and it is at 18.5,
While talking to a tech, I did notice that the heater was disabled on one head, and we turned it on and it got noticeably better... So something to check for?
On our machine the effect is slight, and the results do not transfer to press, but I still am interested to see what resolves this and see what we can do to get this machine running optimally again.
*Insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn Giphy*
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Morning Update:
We have replaced the head board and done some tests. I don't think its done anything to improve our issues.
I have attached a pic that actually is in focus!
did you try the thing Rockers mentioned? Printing a thin line on the side to see if it would do the same. . .
pierre
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I have been working with Jon and Alex at M&R all morning on stuff.
Alex did adjust the heat settings on the machine and I just did a sample exposure to see how it's going.
Things are tighter, but I am still having the issues with the leading edge not being crisp enough (and a little blurriness overall which can lead to smaller edge quality issues). This means that we will have issues with with proper trapping on press and the base white peaking.
We used to run a .5 trap..... we now run a .75 to 1 point trap to compensate for the issues. It wasn't *noticeable* all the time at .5 pt, but it happened enough that we made adjustments.
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Looks like something out of sync with the speed the head is traveling and the speed the jets are firing at. I say this because this issue is directional and I assume you're printing uni-d. To get super clean CTS printing the tech needs to really dial this in. Can't speak for ink but it's a deep settings adjustment on the wax units and you need a high powered loupe and lots of back/forth adjusting settings until it's dialed and you've mitigated the visible effect of those satellites and tails to the image. You can't eliminate it completely but you can essentially make it go away to your eye.
I'd start by eliminating the leading edge issue, it may also resolve the problem with the image at the ends of the head travel.
Can we see the rip file for this element of the print? I always like to look there first, sometimes the rip is junking up the image before it gets to the printer.
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I know I mentioned this but has the belt tension that drives the print head been calibrated? We did not have this issue with our m&r but we saw it on our lawson(basically the same machine) and it was a drive belt issue.
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I think we're barking up the right tree here. If the controller thinks the head is somewhere it isn't it could cause this, especially at the end of the carriage's travel where it's braking.
Has M&R not sent a tech out to you?
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I think we're barking up the right tree here. If the controller thinks the head is somewhere it isn't it could cause this, especially at the end of the carriage's travel where it's braking.
Has M&R not sent a tech out to you?
The way I understood it is that the edge at the beginning of the image, where the head starts printing each pass is looking not clean. Like I said on our budget CTS it`s down to the nozzles not firing right away. That`s why we put a line down the whole hight of the image so that the nozzles have to fire already before reaching the actual image. What does the nozzle test looks like on his machine anything not firing?
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Nozzle check is good. Ripped vector image is very clean. Danny I dont know if the belt drive is an issue, I was never asked to check and I dont know if the remote check looked at it.
But, Dan pretty much nailed it early on when he was talking about voltage. It looks like its the left side of the print head that is not in sync, the dots are all over the place on the test print, the right side is very clean. I can chase it by doing multiple tests where I adjust the voltage going to the print head on the left side.... or just replace the non warantied print head.... The owner loooves that idea.
I will assume chasing voltage does not fix the issue of the leading edge firing at the correct time, but.... I dunno. I am exhausted from chasing this and doing my reg job these last couple days >.< I have taken soooo many pics and done so many tests....
Alex W was a big help remoting in to check everything.
No tech in the area Chris.... but we can pay to have one come out...
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I have a question,
I just got an I image S machine and my images on the screen seem clean. My issues are when I expose screens. On washout, I'm seeing a fine black line
that is not washing out cleanly- edges on straight lines, etc.
A tech told me my emulsion may be too dry? Should I try a different emulsion?
Help!
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Sound so more like an art file issue. So to be sure, let me ask this.
1, does it do this on all art images or just this one file for the first time? Test other files and add in some fine line art as a test.
2, Is it a vector file from Corel or Illustrator, Or is it a pixel file from Photoshop?
The cleanliness of a Photoshop file is highly dependent on the files resolution. For example, if I use type in Photoshop, my file size is going to start out at 600ppi. This provides me with cleaner edges, more rounded and smoother type. Lines are lines with no boogers. With raster art (Photoshop art), its crap in, crap out.
The ink jet shows what's in the art. If there is 1% tone left over from a selection or adjustment, you will see it print on the screen in 600dpi pixel format. This might be what you see on you lines.
test the same line thickness (in vector art).
Typically it's not your emulsion but something else.
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You may also find that you get better image results using 12 pass bi direction as well.
The 6 pass is flashy for speed, but the 6 is so fast, it does not cover tightly as 12 does and the time difference is maybe adding another 10-15 seconds to a print.
Be sure that your machine is calibrated at 12 pass. It should be done at install.
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Throw up a picture - zoomed in - so we can see what you are talking about.
What ink is in your machine? T6 or D2a or...?
How new is your machine?
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Or is it just some ink stain residue, staining your emulsion? I have found more staining with lighter emulsions.
Is it effecting the image?
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Or is it just some ink stain residue, staining your emulsion? I have found more staining with lighter emulsions.
Is it effecting the image?
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
That's a thing? The staining can actually resolve? Just curious.
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I've never had a stain effect an image.
I have had employees just learning how to develop screens not get the ink off quick enough or have water splash on it, leaving a stain with a much more defined edge. Can look a bit strange.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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NO, The ink stains all emulsion (if) you get the screen wet, and let it run or soak in to the newley wet emulsion. We have an Eco rinse so we don't see that issue, but when I was training, and sprayed out with a wand, I had always told them to blow the print off first before letting the screen soak. Otherwise you get stains but those stains never affect the image stencil at all.