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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Ron Pierson on May 14, 2012, 11:58:51 AM
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.......Any suggestions, comments. We do alot of screens here (200+ a day). All this film, carrier sheets, inkjet ink, ect. is overwelming. Thanks in advance for all your comments. Much appreciated.
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I have not really looked at it myself because we are not doing the volume to justify the expense. I have seen some of the oyo machines at trade shows. they look great. Please let us all know if you make the move.
Matt
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.......Any suggestions, comments. We do alot of screens here (200+ a day). All this film, carrier sheets, inkjet ink, ect. is overwelming. Thanks in advance for all your comments. Much appreciated.
Ron,
having seen your place, I am surprised you are not doing it already. 'wonder if the manufacturers would let you take it for a spin at your location? (something like, you cover the shipping back and forth is not interested and tech's time if they come to set it up).
pierre
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You sound like more than a prime candidate for it. see what the manu's say about print speed and ink usage, increase those figures by about 10-25% for real world variables and see what it costs to run that way. I bet you will save a ton in time.
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From what I've heard, you should be in the 200+ per day for you to be able to see and ROI in a decent amount of time. Not sure what that time is for 200 per day. I'ms sure it's different for each auto coater type but the ROI should be similar or close.
The more you do of course, the fast you see it. Similar to the question, "Do I get an auto"?
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You are definately doing the number of screens per day to justify the move, you're a perfect shop to do it. You'll see a quick ROI and the sooner you pull the trigger on this the better, just don't buy the wrong unit. I personally think you need to do it and don't think twice about it.
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good point alan. I would really talk to people with similar shops to yours. Digital equipment can be finicky and I would worry about the printer going down. I would go with a company with good experience in the digital realm. This really reminds me of the early DTG days when everybody was converting epsons to print on shirts. Most of those printers are dead or hobbyists are using them. You don't need a hobbyist machine.
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From the research I've done, our shop size and production rates, and the units I was interested in, the number of screens per day was around 50. If we averaged 40 per day then we'd have to go with one of the cheaper units, $25-35K. 50 screens or more per day would allow us to move up to the Kiwo I-jet II and get the ROI in a few years. I'm sure another shop's numbers will be different and maybe they would need to be at 100 screens per day to make the investment worth it, and maybe there are some shops out there that could make the DTS work with a 30 screens/day.
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and you are thinking of new equipment. Sometimes you can grab stuff cheap on the used market. Large shops can close in a moments notice and toss some pretty nice stuff into an auction or an industrial surplus company.
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and you are thinking of new equipment. Sometimes you can grab stuff cheap on the used market. Large shops can close in a moments notice and toss some pretty nice stuff into an auction or an industrial surplus company.
Or in the dumpster. ;)
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no joke
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Thanks guys. I'm thinking of going to the Kiwo I-jet II. Just a small example of one area of savings.......if I do 200 screens a day and it takes 30 seconds just to vacuum a frame down...I get 1.6 hours of production back PER DAY. Oh sure, in all reality, I'll get back about an hour but that adds up to alot. I think the print head in the Kiwo I-jet II is a stronger unit. The wax technlolgy may be a better solution than an EPSON head. I think that EPSON style ink is a waterbase but I'm unsure. I'm trying to figgure out the filtration of the water that us used when washing out screens as well. I would hate to flush black water full of inkjet solution down the drain. We try to stay as green as we can. The question is always asked "what happens if the thing goes out".The simple answer is - "do what you did before you had it until it is fixed". Anyway, I'm still studying this whole thing out.
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Don't quote me on this but I think Kiwo is giving an extra print head with every unit and I think I also heard something about doing a refurb on the original head once it goes out. If they are still doing that then you'll be getting 3 print heads and one lasts a lot longer than you think. I know Bimmridders I-jet has gotten some serious miles out of their print heads, but their experience might not be typical, but I bet it's a good indication.
Dave with Bimmridder has written quite a bit on this subject so if I were you, I'd search his posts and read them thoroughly and I think you'll be convinced at the level of quality and performance of his unit.
I'm keeping an eye out for the lesser priced units but as of right now, I haven't heard any users say one good or bad thing about them. I think there is an I-jet II here in town and one in Waco that I could look at. Then I believe there is an Oyo, one of the cheaper/smaller ones but I don't know anything about it, good or bad...well, nothing good about it to be honest.
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I did talk to Kiwo. Called them up and spoke with the tec. Yes - they are doing as you have mentioned. The cost is around 70K. they sent me an excell sheet to see the cost savings. Greg Kitson of Minds Eye helped them put it together. I get an ROI in 10 months (so says the sheet) I'm thinking a bit further along than that, however. I will read the posts you spoke of and call Dave. I'm sure he will be willing to talk about his experience. I saw the OYO at the LB show and was inpressed. It seems that everyone in the lesser priced game has the exact same unit. Looks like they are all built in the same factory and just relabeled. I thought I saw 3-4 that looked identical. I looked at M&R and was inpressed as well. They seem to have had a prototype on the floor that appeared "not quite ready". I think they said that they are moving away from the EPSON head and was happy with their new head manufacturer. I don't want to speak badly of M&R however. My entire shop is blue and I'm quite pleased with their equipment.
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Ron,
There were 2 units at LB that look very similar. OYO and Douthitt are selling the same basic unit that is manufactured by OLEC. It's basically what KIWO sold for years as the I-Jet (first generation). From what I know, both are selling them for 55-60k. I am pretty sure Kiwo, OYO and Douthitt all use the same printhead.
I have always been impressed by Richmond's Direct Jet, but I believe it's in the 75k+ range.
Keep us posted on your research.
John
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Epson heads are just too small for most applications. Look at the size of the heads in the Kornit, or many of the wide format digital printers. They are double or triple the size of epson heads. The ports are larger and they are built for industrial applications. Epson print heads work fine...for paper and film it turns out, but both of those are very similar media.
Epson heads tend to clog very quickly too and screen rooms are a pretty clean environment, but they aren't perfect.
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We had the 19th IScreen made put into our shop and I personally was headed with implementing it into our production line. We do 150 to 200 screens per day. We also still use some velums. Ask any questions you want and I will answer the best I can. Right now we run a full chest mens in about 2 to 3 minutes on it. We also upgraded from a msp 2140 to the tri-lite when we got the Iscreen. Can expose 4 screens at the same time using 19 light units. When you go DTS you eliminate the need for the vacuum time. I do know that the new i-image is even faster now and I believe produces better detail too.