TSB
screen printing => Separations => Topic started by: AdvancedArtist on May 06, 2013, 11:49:53 PM
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Get ready, a massive paradigm shift is coming to screen printing and color/separations mark my words...
The HSB color model was written by Alvy Ray Smith in 1978, he later corrected this color model with the HWB color model. We have been working to open this up in Adobe and Corel. This is really interesting because it so easy and we understand now how to work the ink properties into this color model that is a correction of the HSB we know. ICISS and even we have worked by following HSB but this is the key to really understanding and opening up color for screen printing. This goes way beyond color and separations and into every aspect of art and printing.
See this document where the author of HSB corrects the errors in HSB.
http://alvyray.com/Papers/CG/HWB_JGTv208.pdf (http://alvyray.com/Papers/CG/HWB_JGTv208.pdf)
In PS we have found ways to nail down colors with ink properties in layers all laid out with flawless dot gain settings that you can dial in against test prints from your presses.
HWB is not very different from HSB, but is far easier to understand. And Alvy says it is even more accurate and faster to compute.
Some have said the manual separator will never be replaced, I disagree. Because math is math!
And at the end of the day, the job of a printer is simply to recreate an exact copy of the original.
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What if? All the complexity of color/separations was replaced with simplicity? Simple spectrum's of basic color broken down into grey scales that could be seped out any way you want to go?
Stand by everything is about to change... 8)
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Some have said the manual separator will never be replaced, I disagree. Because math is math!
I disagree
Your basing all this off the fact you can seperate an image on screen to look exactly like the original image. OK thats cool but that does nothing for the variables we have to deal with on press and pre-press. I can take any raster in Corel or Photoshop and split the CMYK channels and the channels will look exactly like the original. But we all know thats useless for us because it does not print like that on press not even remotely close. If I were to send a Sep artist like Dan a raster to be sepped for CMYK I would tell him exactly what process inks I am using. They come in different strengths and they also are different by each brand. I am pretty sure Dan knows the characteristics of these inks and seps accordingly.
Another way I look at this is digitizing. Any body here that digitizes knows that you cannot digitize something to look exactly like the image on screen. There is to many variables happening when you stitch out a logo. A quality digitized logo on screen looks wrong on screen, what you are seeing is push and pull compensation, you are seeing varying densities and odd looking stitching orders of certain elements. A human digitizer understands all this stuff and sets the logo to look correct after it is run even tho on screen it looks way wrong. Same principal for a human separator.
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Not going to get too deep into this foray but I have always said that a good separator knows how to print and a truly good printer can at least think like a separator. The kind of synergy I have with my long term guy is priceless.
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without talking about the purple dino here, I will say that from what I have seen (a little more than has been made public so far), I see why Tom is soo excited. One of the problems is they keep finding new things and just as they are about to publish what they have, new better stuff comes up. I am not sure if the HSB-HBW is going to be one of them, but they certainly think so. The work going into separating in layers can be a paradigm shift if it works out. It really has the potential to be that big. Will it ever replace the manual separators? No, but it might produce the results with a pushbutton that will be very good and on top of that (more importantly) give the manual separators new tools that are not available in channels.
pierre
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without talking about the purple dino here, I will say that from what I have seen (a little more than has been made public so far), I see why Tom is soo excited. One of the problems is they keep finding new things and just as they are about to publish what they have, new better stuff comes up. I am not sure if the HSB-HBW is going to be one of them, but they certainly think so. The work going into separating in layers can be a paradigm shift if it works out. It really has the potential to be that big. Will it ever replace the manual separators? No, but it might produce the results with a pushbutton that will be very good and on top of that (more importantly) give the manual separators new tools that are not available in channels.
pierre
Everything Pierre said.. Thought it was just me.
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If this were all new I could see the point. However it is a little old and annoying especially since these things that he is talking about are not new. They have been being used now for a while by top shelf sep guys. Now I do think it would be great to have them at the push of a button for sure. Who would not? I just find the marketing pretty annoying.
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If this were all new I could see the point. However it is a little old and annoying especially since these things that he is talking about are not new. They have been being used now for a while by top shelf sep guys. Now I do think it would be great to have them at the push of a button for sure. Who would not? I just find the marketing pretty annoying.
while the marketing is not quite to everybody's liking (I do think it is getting better though) I believe we'll get something worth waiting for. It will depend on their implementations.
I am pretty sure all the high end guys are using channels. I am not aware anybody out there is separating in layers. Agreed that HSB is not new. That is going to be the biggest difference in my opinion.
pierre
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Thanks for the posts… For the record again! Let’s look at the OP I was referring to a different color model not HSB but HWB or Hue/Color, Whiteness and Blackness which was developed by the scientist behind the HSB color model as a correction to some flaws in the HSB color model.
Did you read the document I posted before you went off?
Did I say anything about my products?
Did I call anybody names?
Did I insult anyone?
Did I say something about color and color separations? Did I disagree? Yes I did! However, am not I entitled to my opinions or do I need to conform the way I share knowledge to be acceptable to you?
If you are uncomfortable with how share information and my opinions then do not read my posts.
Once again I have not insulted anyone and I am getting blasted left and right. Please take the time to read my posts and presented information carefully before you jump to conclusions. Because some of you completely missed what my post was about.
I would think that everyone in this thread would be passionate about understanding color and how it works. After all we are artists and printers.
Paradigm shifts are in motion in this industry and not just in color, look around you. Just the mere fact that CorelDRAW users are sepping high-end with simple slider tools is a paradigm shift..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift)
What is a paradigm shift?
A paradigm shift (or revolutionary science) is, according to Thomas Kuhn, in his influential book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962), a change in the basic assumptions, or paradigms, within the ruling theory of science.
Previously our ruling theory of science in color separations in the screen printing industry was not based on any science. It was majorly based on slam the color into channels (which is really like trying to put a square peg in a round hole and thus such a problem) and then tweak and sometime tweak for hours. Further sometimes it went to get it on press and then oh damn let’s fix it.
Now hopefully with some of the information coming out we are starting to shift out what was and into what is possible.
A year ago I myself did not think these separations were possible in CorelDRAW. Why? Because my head was over loaded with ignorance and really bad information and opinions concerning color spaces, color models, color separations and how these things should be handled and done. That has changed and will continue to change.
Now back to HWB
Hue/Color
Whiteness
Blackness
Apparently we are not the first ones to look at this color model either..
http://books.google.com.uy/books?id=8UzGq6W-bscC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=lightwave+3D+HWB+color&source=bl&ots=uWACThFjbC&sig=z7eI_rrUecD3heMrp_UX2YNrUYs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V4yJUeSjHInA0QGKuoDoBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=lightwave%203D%20HWB%20color&f=false (http://books.google.com.uy/books?id=8UzGq6W-bscC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=lightwave+3D+HWB+color&source=bl&ots=uWACThFjbC&sig=z7eI_rrUecD3heMrp_UX2YNrUYs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V4yJUeSjHInA0QGKuoDoBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=lightwave%203D%20HWB%20color&f=false)
It seems Light Wave is using it due to some flaws in the RGB and HSL color models. Now if the guys writing the color tools for the Holly Wood level animation programs are using this color model.
Maybe we screen and squeegee peeps should take a look at it. Maybe we should understand it, maybe it should be like back of our hands. Because HWB is exactly how we print with colors, whites and blacks.
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I think many here feel like you are the town crier. I personally don`t have much of a problem with it as I`m just after the info in your posts and all the rest is just "show". As a matter of fact I do appreciate learning all the different aspects of separating art as it makes me a better printer. Thanks to guys like Ben at Rising Sun Graphics for example I managed to improve a lot of our work and got my workflow streamlined. Next I will be looking in CoralDraw to see what the differences are separating in HSB. For smaller shops like ours where the same person does the art and printing these posts are great.
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I think many here feel like you are the town crier. I personally don`t have much of a problem with it as I`m just after the info in your posts and all the rest is just "show". As a matter of fact I do appreciate learning all the different aspects of separating art as it makes me a better printer. Thanks to guys like Ben at Rising Sun Graphics for example I managed to improve a lot of our work and got my workflow streamlined. Next I will be looking in CoralDraw to see what the differences are separating in HSB. For smaller shops like ours where the same person does the art and printing these posts are great.
Hold off on the Corel.. the PhotoShop stuff is coming no need to switch and it wont just be about products and plugins. Plugins are nice but you need to understand how the applications handle color and why the color models are important. We teach the manual and color models because, well your understanding of color is far more important than any plugin. The same with your artists if they do not understand the color then they are are at a disadvantage and workflow will have issues. It will take some time but we will spell all of this out. I think within the next two months we will have all this opened up across all the major graphics applications.
I spent almost 2 decades blind about these things limiting my potential in art and on press because I did not understand. We will get this understanding out effectively and we have good reputable people to work with in this process like Pierre who is willing to work with us in testing and taking this apart and exposing it. There is allot to come..
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I am going to do this post in english as I do not have the time for the spanish. But with that I think AA products in corel are excellent. I have several of his products and have master few( but i have several other and I am not promoting him persay but his way of working in corel). There is a learning curve for that way of seps for sure. but The best thing I have learned from him are the use of macros and his desktop set up. If I had more time I would elaborate more. I have read the post and yes he may be brass about it but put that aside and do look at what he is doing. it is very new to do it in corel. I learned on corel first(14 years) then went to photoshop for the high end stuff and have been coming back more and more over the last 2-3 years in corel since we have started to do full custom dye shirts. but his method is very interesting so take his approach with a lightness and discover what he is bringing.
well got to get back to work
catch this later in the day
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I am going to do this post in english as I do not have the time for the spanish. But with that I think AA products in corel are excellent. I have several of his products and have master few( but i have several other and I am not promoting him persay but his way of working in corel). There is a learning curve for that way of seps for sure. but The best thing I have learned from him are the use of macros and his desktop set up. If I had more time I would elaborate more. I have read the post and yes he may be brass about it but put that aside and do look at what he is doing. it is very new to do it in corel. I learned on corel first(14 years) then went to photoshop for the high end stuff and have been coming back more and more over the last 2-3 years in corel since we have started to do full custom dye shirts. but his method is very interesting so take his approach with a lightness and discover what he is bringing.
well got to get back to work
catch this later in the day
in either language it is what it is
en cualquier idioma es lo mismo cabrones
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If we are going to have people jumping ship over this guy, he's not worth having here.
I am pretty sure he is not talking about jumping ship over "this guy" but for the other post in the thread. If you don't like Tom and you don't like his products and it's not a product you are interested in then why do you care how he presents it? Are you a separator?
I understand the tone implied in his post could be interpreted as brash but some of the posters posting in this thread are just as guilty. If someone questions their business model, pricing, how they approach customers, size of their orders, etc. then they get defensive just like Tom does. Each one of us is as guilty as the other one. So whichever one of you that has not responded or posted in a thread with a "tone" that is less than friendly then fire away!!! Given that not sure any of us should be responding.
Pierre responded in a professional manner (as usual). He told you there is merit to what Tom is stating and also expressed that some of it may be blown out of proportion. You gotta take the good with the bad. Do I think this guy is trying to just sell his product and boot everyone else to the curb? No! If he is smart enough to do what he does then he is smart enough to do something else where he could make a ton more money. Given that I believe his intention is to educate and his way of doing is a little "annoying" but if we ignore that part and take the bad with the good then I believe his product will help the industry. Most likely we are all in his position and should we choose to do so could make more money with less headache without dealing with this industry. Lets not act like our customers.
We do all of our separations yes, well save maybe 2-5 jobs we have sent out to Dan and another guy.
He's earned the type of response he has gotten. Not any real need to imply a tone, he showed up with a tone. First impressions are everything. Tom needs a lesson in that far more than the rest of us need a lesson on separations apparently. That's how I see it from the cheap seats.
Brandt,
I think the really big point Tom is trying to make is that the seps you are NOT sending to Dan will look better and be easier to print. I don't see him preaching to Dan's of this world, but to the guys in the shops who will now have it easier to print and sep.
Most of our jobs will still go to Dan as that is what most of our customers require. Few jobs that I sep here will now look better and be easier to do.
pierre
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Pierre,
Maybe you can translate what Tom is saying. What has he said that we would have learned that? All his posts are hype for the up coming end of the world in separating. What program do you use to get these better faster seps? Where are all the people that use this way of seping why are they not on here showing the greatness of it. If its so new that he can't share it then why is he sharing so much hype about it. From what I have read this is changing all the time.
I have no problem with Tom he can act how he wants. His rep is the only thing that is getting hurt here. I just have a problem seeing post after post of hype with no content. This is a forum of content and a place for friendly screen printers, embroiders and artists to share info and learn. I don't think this forum would last long is we all just came here to hype up our next print project and not offer up content or how it was done.
Lets see the facts not inflated wishes and dreams but the facts. How is it easier, better and faster.
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so here is a thing and somebody please correct me and point out if I am wrong.
The only thing that Tom said was that he believes this will make the separators obsolete. He even acknowledges that he disagrees with others (i.e. this is his opinion) without bashing anybody. He states what he believes are facts about color theory, separations and programs used to do it. Nobody has disputed any of that so far.
Not in one place did he pick on anybody else or put somebody down (this has happened before, but not since Tom agreed to stop doing it). He sees the potential and as they discover new things (while working on it). He posts his findings in a rather excited manner (which I would do too. Remember all the pictures I was posting of the prints we were doing? It was not bragging, well maybe a little, but I was genuinely excited about the stuff we were doing. I can see Tom's enthusiasm for what's going on). he even went as far as saying not to switch to Corel (which would potentially benefit him), but to hold on as they are working on the stuff for PS. Is he loud in his excitement? Absolutely! Is he promoting his product (guerilla style)? Possibly, but I honestly don't think that is the reason post are they way they are. He really is pushing some info out to get it out. If you check the videos he is doing with Jeff, almost all of the stuff is out there for us to do on our own without paying for it! That is sharing. I will also say that yes, he is trying to make money from it, but most of us are. And how many of us have actually put up the videos that explain how to do a lot of the things we are selling?
So unless I am missing something here (in which case I apologize and please point it out for me) let's let Tom post what he has to say and let those of us who are interested in reading it be able to do so.
thank you,
pierre
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I must of missed the videos. I will look for the videos when I have time. So this is not a program like the rest of sep programs? It sounds interesting.
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I must of missed the videos. I will look for the videos when I have time. So this is not a program like the rest of sep programs? It sounds interesting.
simple seps is a program like many others. That's about all I know about the Corel side.
Not sure what the goal is for Photoshop, but I watched videos from Jeff where he shows how they are doing things. Anybody following can figure out how to do it on their own (which I actually did before Tom started talking about it here. My action script is loosely based on what they were explaining and is a one click sep that produces rather poor results since I stopped tweaking it before it was done. But right now, I can click one button and get HSB seps in photoshop thanx to the videos they posted.). I don't know how long will they leave the videos up, but few weeks back it was still on youtube. Eventually I am sure they will sell some sort of a program for those not wanting to spend 20 hours watching the videos and recording the actions.
pierre
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I must of missed the videos. I will look for the videos when I have time. So this is not a program like the rest of sep programs? It sounds interesting.
simple seps is a program like many others. That's about all I know about the Corel side.
Not sure what the goal is for Photoshop, but I watched videos from Jeff where he shows how they are doing things. Anybody following can figure out how to do it on their own (which I actually did before Tom started talking about it here. My action script is loosely based on what they were explaining and is a one click sep that produces rather poor results since I stopped tweaking it before it was done. But right now, I can click one button and get HSB seps in photoshop thanx to the videos they posted.). I don't know how long will they leave the videos up, but few weeks back it was still on youtube. Eventually I am sure they will sell some sort of a program for those not wanting to spend 20 hours watching the videos and recording the actions.
pierre
I think most sep programs are just actions in PS. I tried one and was not impressed. I will have to find the videos. If they really work then it would be great. They still can't do the stuff Dan and other pro sep guys do . You need a brain to sep some jobs. Well that may exclude Dan from my last statement. Sorry Dan, just kidding.
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Can someone clear up what HSB and HWB is???
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so here is a thing and somebody please correct me and point out if I am wrong.
The only thing that Tom said was that he believes this will make the separators obsolete. He even acknowledges that he disagrees with others (i.e. this is his opinion) without bashing anybody. He states what he believes are facts about color theory, separations and programs used to do it. Nobody has disputed any of that so far.
Not in one place did he pick on anybody else or put somebody down (this has happened before, but not since Tom agreed to stop doing it). He sees the potential and as they discover new things (while working on it). He posts his findings in a rather excited manner (which I would do too. Remember all the pictures I was posting of the prints we were doing? It was not bragging, well maybe a little, but I was genuinely excited about the stuff we were doing. I can see Tom's enthusiasm for what's going on). he even went as far as saying not to switch to Corel (which would potentially benefit him), but to hold on as they are working on the stuff for PS. Is he loud in his excitement? Absolutely! Is he promoting his product (guerilla style)? Possibly, but I honestly don't think that is the reason post are they way they are. He really is pushing some info out to get it out. If you check the videos he is doing with Jeff, almost all of the stuff is out there for us to do on our own without paying for it! That is sharing. I will also say that yes, he is trying to make money from it, but most of us are. And how many of us have actually put up the videos that explain how to do a lot of the things we are selling?
So unless I am missing something here (in which case I apologize and please point it out for me) let's let Tom post what he has to say and let those of us who are interested in reading it be able to do so.
thank you,
pierre
Thanks Pierre, I was not able to explain it as well as you. But everything you have said is spot on the money. Now if the people who diagree with AA can express why they do without bashing him or calling names then we will be able to grow and move on.
We are a small shop per say and I do all of the art and all of the seps and all of the burning and all of the printing and on and on and on. So if something is new and allows me to streamline any part of that process then well it is for me cause I still cannot figure out how to get 30 hours in a day.
I will not leave the site either that is just as childish as the name calling in spanish that went on after my post. I just do not have the time nor the will to go through all of the BS post in a thread to get to the meat and potatoes. I do know what a friendly forum is and abide by the rules, and i did translate the spanish as well and "my penis is on fire" what does that have to do with anything at all, why was it posted. Also "In any language it is the same bastard" this was some of the spanish also, why post this it is not constructive at all.
These are the thing which i find to be very rude and childish.
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One thing Tom does not show is how photo paint creates the monochromes, I wish I knew the exact way that happens but seriously I would not blame him for not revealing that secret since it is an,integral part of his software.
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One thing Tom does not show is how photo paint creates the monochromes, I wish I knew the exact way that happens but seriously I would not blame him for not revealing that secret since it is an,integral part of his software.
Well in one of his vids, he stated he didn't have the time to get into showing how to convert to monochrome. So I don't think he's holding back, he just did not get around to it yet.
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this is just silly! as soon as I get a chance a lot of this stuff will be cut!
instead of reacting, sleep on it before posting please.
pierre
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OK, this has been cleaned up with a rather heavy hand. Some things were removed that potentially could have stayed. My apologies to those posters.
If you are going to post in this thread, please make sure it is on topic. Anybody not interested in a meaningful conversation, please move on, these are not the droids you are looking for . . .
pierre
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I was wondering why it was 5 pages at the end of the day yesterday, and only 2 this morning. Good job Pierre. I still haven't had time to really delve into the process as I'd like, but I'm very enthused to learn other ways, especially answers to questions I've had in my mind for a while. Though I wasn't crazy about Tom's earlier postings, the info was very interesting, and I'm glad he's sharing what he's sharing. I don't run Corel, but theory is extremely useful. When he says that we need to understand color better than we may now (obviously some more or less than others) he's correct. I knew that red and yellow makes orange when I was a kid, but thinking of color in 3 dimensions came much later, and is wholly beneficial.
Steve
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One thing Tom does not show is how photo paint creates the monochromes, I wish I knew the exact way that happens but seriously I would not blame him for not revealing that secret since it is an,integral part of his software.
Well in one of his vids, he stated he didn't have the time to get into showing how to convert to monochrome. So I don't think he's holding back, he just did not get around to it yet.
Tom,
can you explain the monochrome part for us please?
thanx!
pierre
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One thing Tom does not show is how photo paint creates the monochromes, I wish I knew the exact way that happens but seriously I would not blame him for not revealing that secret since it is an,integral part of his software.
Well in one of his vids, he stated he didn't have the time to get into showing how to convert to monochrome. So I don't think he's holding back, he just did not get around to it yet.
Tom,
can you explain the monochrome part for us please?
thanx!
pierre
Corel makes everything seem so streamlined. Me thinks me like..
In Photoshop using a color overlay fx adjustment layer should yield the same result.
I figure the use of monochrome in Corel is due to the fact that unlike photoshop, it cannot use the spot color option in channels or the color overlay in layer fx
Gimme some more Corel Tom..
We want monochrome.. We want monochrome..
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Monochromes are the coolest thing ever...seriously, ever.
It looks just like a grayscale bitmap, shading, everything, but you can change the color of the object just like it is vector.
It's awesome....probably the best thing Corel has going for it.
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Monochromes are the coolest thing ever...seriously, ever.
It looks just like a grayscale bitmap, shading, everything, but you can change the color of the object just like it is vector.
It's awesome....probably the best thing Corel has going for it.
how is it done?
pierre
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Tom has a download link for a monochrome tutorial he did in 2009 on sawmillcreek.org
You have to be a member to access the download link and I'm to lazy to go sign up.
Here's the link..
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?106114-CorelDRAW-Mono-Chrome-Tutorial (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?106114-CorelDRAW-Mono-Chrome-Tutorial)
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indtroduction to Monochrome clip art (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElnY5FQ52g#)
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I make my own monochromes all the time, it's easy. take the image, convert to greyscale bitmap, then go to mode, black and white, line art and adjust the slider and bob's your uncle. in corel anyway...
OR you use fashion factory and hit the button hahah...it really is easy.
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I make my own monochromes all the time, it's easy. take the image, convert to greyscale bitmap, then go to mode, black and white, line art and adjust the slider and bob's your uncle. in corel anyway...
OR you use fashion factory and hit the button hahah...it really is easy.
Your example is done directly in Corel but his way is sent to Paint then converted. I do what you say all the time but it is not even remotely close to the Monochromes he creates, the ones I create are nasty his have excellent detail with shades.
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I would buy his macro, frankly, it's easier to press a button. I prefer automation over manually doing something. I get most of my macros for free and they are great....but I will pay for one that helps out.
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I have to say that MonoChromes are the bomb. I have worked with them for years and we have really two versions of monochrome.. In DRAW conversions like in the Fashion Factory which these are not perfect because of how they are generated. Then we have perfect monochromes these are flawless grey scale monochromes and cannot be generated in DRAW you have to go out to PhotoPaint for these and they have several complicated steps to make sure they are perfect. The process requires the replacement of all white in the grey scale image with exact matched levels of transparency. Perhaps I can get into this sometime in the future, but the few that I have shown it to typically struggle with the all the steps involved. Actually Jeff and me spent a many many hours working this out so we could translate our separations into the these perfect MonoChromes because they result in great sep previews and separated art then becomes like clip art in DRAW that you can add vector and text too etc.