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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: fleetee2 on October 29, 2018, 12:00:34 PM
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Unfortunately, I got logged out of my previous account Fleetee and cant get back in so I made a new account
Anyways, I am having issues with burning high detailed designs onto screens. The high detailed areas are either too thin to get burned and/or it just starts to come off when I go to wash out the unexposed emulsion.
The only reason I can think of as to why the detailed parts of the design is not being properly burned on the screen is because I don't have a lid and/or the vacuum function on my exposure unit. This is the exposure unit I am currently using: https://www.screenprinting.com/collections/exposure-units/products/ryonet-rxp-x-series-aluminum-digital-uv-screen-exposure-unit-25x36 (https://www.screenprinting.com/collections/exposure-units/products/ryonet-rxp-x-series-aluminum-digital-uv-screen-exposure-unit-25x36) (Ryonets RXP 25x36 without the lid), the emulsion I am using is also from them, cryocoat: https://www.screenprinting.com/collections/emulsion/products/green-galaxy-cryocoat-emulsion, (https://www.screenprinting.com/collections/emulsion/products/green-galaxy-cryocoat-emulsion,) and I am exposing for 1 minute
What do you guys think it is? Please help me out, anything ideas will help!
I attached pictures of the design on the film and the failed exposed design on a screen to give you guys a better idea if you issues.
Thanks guys!
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What mesh count, with florescent its harder to detail.
Shane
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Your problem is that light is getting through the space between the screens emulsion and the film's emulsion.
You can not hold detail without good contact between the film and the screen emulsion.
Really high detail and/or fine line halftones requires a vacuum lid.
Pretty high detail, and some halftone requires at the least, a compression lid.
Clunky stuff, a little weight.
I posted a pic of how to build a compression lid a month or so back.
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What mesh count, with florescent its harder to detail.
Shane
i only have 110 and 160, would neither of these work?
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Get yourself some 230 and 280 mesh screens. They also work well for top colors over an underbase.
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Your problem is that light is getting through the space between the screens emulsion and the film's emulsion.
You can not hold detail without good contact between the film and the screen emulsion.
Really high detail and/or fine line halftones requires a vacuum lid.
Pretty high detail, and some halftone requires at the least, a compression lid.
Clunky stuff, a little weight.
I posted a pic of how to build a compression lid a month or so back.
I forgot to mention that i am putting weight on it. a square foam that fits the size of the screen, a heavy box, and 3 gallons of water on top
For the kind of detailed design i am attempting to burn, would i need a lid and/or vacuum function? and/or a higher mesh count than 110 and 160?
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Get yourself some 230 and 280 mesh screens. They also work well for top colors over an underbase.
I order some 200 mesh counts, they are coming soon. i should've ordered some 230 and 280.....
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160 would work if yellow mesh or close to holding it all 230 is the next jump i would do yellow mesh. but that makes it even harder with flo. tubes.
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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What mesh count, with florescent its harder to detail.
Shane
i only have 110 and 160, would neither of these work?
Be very suspicious of anyone who recommended 110's for everyday use. That is very, very, out of date practice from the days before white inks gained the printability they have today.
Not to say they won't see some action, but for most of us, not often.
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how long do you guys dry your emulsion before burning a design on it? I made my own screen rack and have 2 fans on one side and 1 fan on the either. i know the emulsion gets dried in 2 hrs but im wondering if i can shorten that drying time
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Try using a color mesh like yellow 230 and use an emulsion that is forgiving like a dual cure which you can burn longer and that holds great detail, Image mate 521 is a very unforgiving emulsion and it holds great detail with weak light boxes
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Try using a color mesh like yellow 230 and use an emulsion that is forgiving like a dual cure which you can burn longer and that holds great detail, Image mate 521 is a very unforgiving emulsion and it holds great detail with weak light boxes
thanks for the recommendation! is this an example of the type of emulsion your talking about? https://discoverylancer.com/product/screen-printing-supplies-equipment/screen-print-supplies/stencil-making/dc-521-dual-cure-blue-photoemulsion/
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Yep that is it, I use it when I had a fluorescent tube unit, but I did have a lid on mine that held the film down tight, back before I bought a nice exposure unit instead of foam which I did use, I bought a nice piece of thick glass and covered it with some rubber, then I weighted it down. The foam I was using didn't hold the screen and film tight enough for my taste and I was getting undercutting and lost of detail as your getting, but changing to a yellow mesh higher ct and DC 521 I was good to go.
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I suggest you use a pure photo polymer with flou. tubes. Any dual cure as recommended will increase your exposure time. Go with chromaline Chroma- Blue for your plastisol designs. This stuff has a huge exposure window and will give you great results with the flou. tubes.
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Just a note on exposure units.
In general, a fluorescent unit with a proper vacuum lid, will usually produce better detail than a single point light unit without.
It is the single most important component of an exposure unit doing high detail stuff.
I once saw the figures and the difference in pressure (which translates to contact) between vacuum and compression or weights was well over ten fold.
Maybe someone here can do the math comparing a vacuum lid's psi to fleetee's 30 lbs of water.
Now, fleetee, don't get me wrong, one can do a lot with a compression lid or even weights but...
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hey guys, are the higher mesh counts limited to high detail designs? for example can a 280 do a design that is meant for 110 or 160 design? another way to ask the question would be can a design that can be successfully done on a 110 or 160 also successfully be done on 280 or even a 305? the reason why I am asking is because I am ordering a big bulk of screens, and now knowing that the lower mesh count can not only do half tones but also cant do detailed designs like i attached on the op, i much rather spend a couple extra dollars on the higher mesh counts if that means that the mesh counts can be more versatile and buy 200/230/280 mesh screens so that they can do both the very detailed designs AND the simple designs.
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Just a note on exposure units.
In general, a fluorescent unit with a proper vacuum lid, will usually produce better detail than a single point light unit without.
It is the single most important component of an exposure unit doing high detail stuff.
I once saw the figures and the difference in pressure (which translates to contact) between vacuum and compression or weights was well over ten fold.
Maybe someone here can do the math comparing a vacuum lid's psi to fleetee's 30 lbs of water.
Now, fleetee, don't get me wrong, one can do a lot with a compression lid or even weights but...
My fears with using weights for compression is the possibility of breaking the glass. I know a vacuum blanket is exerting pressure on the glass but it should be spread out equally, whereas the weights are concentrated in one spot. Just my thoughts.
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hey guys, are the higher mesh counts limited to high detail designs? for example can a 280 do a design that is meant for 110 or 160 design? another way to ask the question would be can a design that can be successfully done on a 110 or 160 also successfully be done on 280 or even a 305? the reason why I am asking is because I am ordering a big bulk of screens, and now knowing that the lower mesh count can not only do half tones but also cant do detailed designs like i attached on the op, i much rather spend a couple extra dollars on the higher mesh counts if that means that the mesh counts can be more versatile and buy 200/230/280 mesh screens so that they can do both the very detailed designs AND the simple designs.
Meant for a 110 or 160? What criteria established this? Especially, what designs (and ink combo) do you think are meant for your 110's?
I think that you almost need to order one or two each of the common meshes and see for yourself. See how much ink is deposited. See if all inks act the same.
See if fine detail that's reversed out fills in.
You need some hands-on experience because, as your current screen inventory shows, I think that you have relied and acted upon some questionable advice.
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Your problem is that light is getting through the space between the screens emulsion and the film's emulsion.
You can not hold detail without good contact between the film and the screen emulsion.
Really high detail and/or fine line halftones requires a vacuum lid.
Pretty high detail, and some halftone requires at the least, a compression lid.
Clunky stuff, a little weight.
I posted a pic of how to build a compression lid a month or so back.
I forgot to mention that i am putting weight on it. a square foam that fits the size of the screen, a heavy box, and 3 gallons of water on top
For the kind of detailed design i am attempting to burn, would i need a lid and/or vacuum function? and/or a higher mesh count than 110 and 160?
You need a vacuum, or you're wasting a lot of time. Andy is right, you're undercutting the film, which makes the thin lines close up as they are actually being exposed instead of holding back light. The film needs to be flush to the screen's emulsion, and flush to the glass. Compression could actually bow your glass causing the same issue, where a vacuum pulls it all together tightly...
Steve
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how long do you guys dry your emulsion before burning a design on it? I made my own screen rack and have 2 fans on one side and 1 fan on the either. i know the emulsion gets dried in 2 hrs but im wondering if i can shorten that drying time
Buy or build a drying cabinet.
A search or a serious browse could even turn up some DIY plans.
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I got my account back thanks to Frog :) thanks man
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hey guys, are the higher mesh counts limited to high detail designs? for example can a 280 do a design that is meant for 110 or 160 design? another way to ask the question would be can a design that can be successfully done on a 110 or 160 also successfully be done on 280 or even a 305? the reason why I am asking is because I am ordering a big bulk of screens, and now knowing that the lower mesh count can not only do half tones but also cant do detailed designs like i attached on the op, i much rather spend a couple extra dollars on the higher mesh counts if that means that the mesh counts can be more versatile and buy 200/230/280 mesh screens so that they can do both the very detailed designs AND the simple designs.
Meant for a 110 or 160? What criteria established this? Especially, what designs (and ink combo) do you think are meant for your 110's?
I think that you almost need to order one or two each of the common mehes and see for yourself. See how much ink is deposited. See if all inks act the same.
See of fine detailed that's reversed out fills in.
You need some hands-on experience because, as your current screen inventory shows, I think that you have relied and acted upon some questionable advice.
Yea... now having do some hands on experience, I am learning that the mesh counts are a lot detailed, specific, and important that i thought/was told.
Does anyone have any good videos, articles, charts, etc that they know on the top of their head that they can share with me
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Does anyone have any good videos, articles, charts, etc that they know on the top of their head that they can share with me
I believe that I once suggetsed visiting T-Biz.com https://t-biznetwork.com/
Scott has his book, videos, and new online Master classes, with a new one on Screen printing Shirts that may be helpful for you. Also Boot Camps for hands-on training.
Tons of resources on his site.
Go back to square one and learn it right!
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how long do you guys dry your emulsion before burning a design on it? I made my own screen rack and have 2 fans on one side and 1 fan on the either. i know the emulsion gets dried in 2 hrs but im wondering if i can shorten that drying time
increase daytime. 6-8hrs in dark room with some heat.
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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I would have put some of the money spent on screens towards a better exposure solution.
I have been in business since 1991, and have been running an auto for about 16 years. I don't own 200 screens. I think I am at about 60 or so.
A couple of each of the most popular mesh counts to get you started for testing purposes would have been a great option for you.
I have an "experienced" florescent bulb, vacuum blanket, exposure unit that has been taking up space and collecting dust for about 15 years. Would love it to go to a great home. I used to burn 305 screens for process prints at 55 LPI with it.
Bill
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As a guy who used the compression/weight approach for too long in the beginning, I have to add my voice to what's been said: You need a vacuum lid. You will NOT be able to produce the same quality without it, no matter what you learn about choosing the right mesh count. At any count you choose, you will hold better detail & make better screens with the vacuum.
Consider taking Squeegie up on his offer!
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There are several reasonably priced on the used market. In addition to this is excellent forum also check digitsmith.com and mrprint.com If i were you though being as green as you are I would post here for advice on your find before buying and sending someone your money.
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All the advice in the world won't beat good ole trial and error, but all this good advice will save you some money in the long run, then you can afford that trial and error time ;)
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I just asked a question to someone else about vacuum vs weights on exposure unit.
What does the data say? Does data exist? What is the pressure difference between vacuum exposure unit vs weight/foam unit?
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I just asked a question to someone else about vacuum vs weights on exposure unit.
What does the data say? Does data exist? What is the pressure difference between vacuum exposure unit vs weight/foam unit?
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not even close!
From this article https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure (https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure)
A vacuum system with fifteen inches of mercury develops 3,775 lbs of pressure, holding the screen and film evenly together on a 23” x 31” screen! That kind of pressure is hard to match with plywood and weights!
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Well stated, Andy...
Steve
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When I started out in '92 I made my own exposure unit, 2 - 48" shop light fixtures with black light bulbs from Spencer's Gifts. I used a big piece of 1/4" glass over the lights and weighted the screen and art with 2 more pieces of 1/4" glass taped together and stuffed inside a t shirt to keep from cutting the screen (or me). I put a barbell weight on top of the glass pieces to give it some extra. I used this until I made enough money to buy a expo unit. It worked well for line art, but could not reproduce halftones with any consistency.
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I just asked a question to someone else about vacuum vs weights on exposure unit.
What does the data say? Does data exist? What is the pressure difference between vacuum exposure unit vs weight/foam unit?
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not even close!
From this article https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure (https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure)
A vacuum system with fifteen inches of mercury develops 3,775 lbs of pressure, holding the screen and film evenly together on a 23” x 31” screen! That kind of pressure is hard to match with plywood and weights!
Well there you go! Thanks!
Why doesn’t it break the glass? In theory, if I stacked 3775 lbs on my plywood and foam, I’d get same result as vacuum top (at 15” mercury)? Not that I plan on stacking my wife’s Lexus on top of my exposure unit... lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I just asked a question to someone else about vacuum vs weights on exposure unit.
What does the data say? Does data exist? What is the pressure difference between vacuum exposure unit vs weight/foam unit?
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not even close!
From this article https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure (https://www.mrprint.com/blog/841-exposure-systems-finding-the-right-cure)
A vacuum system with fifteen inches of mercury develops 3,775 lbs of pressure, holding the screen and film evenly together on a 23” x 31” screen! That kind of pressure is hard to match with plywood and weights!
Well there you go! Thanks!
Why doesn’t it break the glass? In theory, if I stacked 3775 lbs on my plywood and foam, I’d get same result as vacuum top (at 15” mercury)? Not that I plan on stacking my wife’s Lexus on top of my exposure unit... lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We'd probably also have to calculate just how thick the plywood would have to be to not flex at all and evenly hold her Lexus without putting more pressure under the tires and possibly breaking the glass there.
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Lexus on an exposure unit, that'd make a good pic.
:)
Anyhow,
I'm not sure how much you know Fleetee, so please don't take offence.
If I recall, my explanations to the trainees went something like this..
Very, very, generally speaking regarding mesh counts.
For exposing linework, you could use 80 mesh if you felt so inclined, without losing too much detail.
Once you get into halftones, finer mesh is required.
For example, I used artwork ripped at 40lpi, exposed on 150-160 mesh everyday for years.
( that was just our 'always works' set it and forget it )
If I ripped the artwork at say, 55lpi I couldn't hold certain ranges, so a finer mesh was required.
To keep it simple, think of mesh in ink thickness terms, and halftone exposure ability.
But, as almost everyone has mentioned, you NEED a vacuum blanket, or you will chase your tail
with workarounds and frustration all day long ( I know, I have ), unless you're doing the real simple stuff.
And of course, all those important variables with bulbs, emulsion, coating, etc, ad nauseum.
Many folks on here with tons of knowledge on the science of it all.
Hope that helps.
Cheers.
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hey guys, are the higher mesh counts limited to high detail designs? for example can a 280 do a design that is meant for 110 or 160 design? another way to ask the question would be can a design that can be successfully done on a 110 or 160 also successfully be done on 280 or even a 305? the reason why I am asking is because I am ordering a big bulk of screens, and now knowing that the lower mesh count can not only do half tones but also cant do detailed designs like i attached on the op, i much rather spend a couple extra dollars on the higher mesh counts if that means that the mesh counts can be more versatile and buy 200/230/280 mesh screens so that they can do both the very detailed designs AND the simple designs.
225/230 will work on almost anything. It is definitely the most versatile mesh count. You can use it for solid vector art and get a nice soft hand feel and it will have no problems printing fine lines or half tones down to 3%. Works well with plastisol and waterbase. If you are buying in bulk that is the way to go. I would definitely invest in a vaccum lid if you are concerned about printing high detail though.
-Ty