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Artist => ART Pricing => Topic started by: Boldline on May 17, 2014, 01:16:31 AM
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I was reading an older thread about people wanting artwork that costs 200 dollars for a "nickel". It made me think about the kinds of design work we as artists provide. Those who are wanting cheap art, are they expecting custom designs or are they happy with stock art/clipart? For me the more customized he design, the more the design costs.
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I was reading an older thread about people wanting artwork that costs 200 dollars for a "nickel". It made me think about the kinds of design work we as artists provide. Those who are wanting cheap art, are they expecting custom designs or are they happy with stock art/clipart? For me the more customized he design, the more the design costs.
Many ppl expect something for nothing, it is not much different with artwork. Then there are those of us that pay the fair rate for clip art and custom work. We have a large, expensive collection of clip art and fonts that is used for the less demanding customers. When a canned solution is not enough, we get the art done and pay hundreds of dollars for it.
So yes, many ppl will want Champagne on the beer budget! It is your job to find customers willing to pay the going rate if you wish to stay in business. . .
Pierre
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Many ppl expect something for nothing, it is not much different with artwork. Then there are those of us that pay the fair rate for clip art and custom work. We have a large, expensive collection of clip art and fonts that is used for the less demanding customers. When a canned solution is not enough, we get the art done and pay hundreds of dollars for it.
So yes, many ppl will want Champagne on the beer budget! It is your job to find customers willing to pay the going rate if you wish to stay in business. . .
Pierre
So you pay out hundreds to an artist to get a custom design...is that something you end up tacking on to your customer charge or do you warn them upfront? I agree there are those who do not care about the design beyond keeping it as cheap as possible!
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I can handle the needs of most of my clients, but go to outside sources when rendering or somewhat sophisticated computer skills and/or sepping are required.
Art is always listed as a separate charge.
I ask clients what their art budget is, and order or create appropriately.
I also collect a deposit on the full job, or at least enough to cover art before showing even roughs.
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When we create custom art for customers, we charge our hourly rate. If they send us a jpeg they "found on the web" we have to investigate whether it's legal to use, or if it's a jpeg from a clip art house where the very clean vectored art can be had for $10.00. If a contract customer needs us to do anything to supplied art, they are charged. We have a lot of very long time customers who know our work and will pay for our services, because they always get pretty much what they want. For the customers that don't want to pay, let them do the footwork, and maybe they will appreciate it. Hell, they'll pay $150 for sneakers made by the millions.
Steve
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Many ppl expect something for nothing, it is not much different with artwork. Then there are those of us that pay the fair rate for clip art and custom work. We have a large, expensive collection of clip art and fonts that is used for the less demanding customers. When a canned solution is not enough, we get the art done and pay hundreds of dollars for it.
So yes, many ppl will want Champagne on the beer budget! It is your job to find customers willing to pay the going rate if you wish to stay in business. . .
Pierre
So you pay out hundreds to an artist to get a custom design...is that something you end up tacking on to your customer charge or do you warn them upfront? I agree there are those who do not care about the design beyond keeping it as cheap as possible!
we are strictly contract so everybody has terms, but everybody is also a repeat customer.
if we touch it, we line item charge for it! customer chooses what we do.
pierre
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BoldLine,
I know your vector art is very good. Very clean and a very nice style.
The tee shirt business is sort of all over the place on art cost. I've seen from many printers over the years the type that want $20.00 art for 20.00 and also 200.00 art for 50.00
Even (most of) the larger shops that do retail licensed art will buy it from you at 150.00 if you let them but the art is a 400.00 job. That is the key sentence, (if you let them).
The whole price issue with art is all about what you feel (you) and your time is worth.
I've talked with another really good "creative" artist who also is excellent with design and who is also an excellent color separator. It's very hard to find all three of those traits.
He is high priced and all of the work he gets is geared towards high end customers that can afford him and want him. He does not do low end "clip art designs". Nor does he entertain lowering his price. He's busy. Very backed up. Maybe as far our as 3 months with customers.
On the flip side, I do have those skills like he does but I reserve the effort into the jobs (based on the budget). So it's a different approach. I do the 25.00 work and also capable and get the request to occasionally do a 500-1000 art job. For this reason, I can be busy, but also, my personal portfolio lacks high quality due to the customer base and budget orders.
Taking apples to apples, hours to hours in a day, I'm sure the other artist is happier, more profitable and has a better portfolio than I do.
re: shop type, there are those both big and small shops that want 10-50.00 art because they do not charge the customer. They started out this way and are now known for this so it becomes too hard to transfer out of giving art to now charging for art . Of those that do, either don't charge the full amount to the customer, are still working off the idea that customers won't pay for good art. I've heard it for years both ways.
Then you have printers that have always charged for art (and typically) they will pay the money it's worth.
I think you do have to define from your art customer (what they are wanting). Is it a low cost budget job (taking advantage of clip art) or are they looking for custom art and willing to pay a higher price.
How you respond depends on the artist you want to be. You can be busy and pay the bills on one side, or be very profitable, happy with your work and portfolio on the other side.
At least your working at either option. :)
Like Greg Kitson said in another post regarding contract printers, it's all about asking questions or communication.
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thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. My goal is to be like the artist you referenced, not compromising on his pricing, his quality or originality. of course the major question becomes, how do you attract that kind of a market, while still paying the bills as you get established. I was having a conversation yesterday with an artist who decided once he went out on his own that he would never rely on clip art or stock art for his work...I understood and admired his stance, but again...it goes back to what kind of work do you want to be known for and how desperate are you for income.
Mat Woodworth
www.boldlinedesign.com
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Dan, another thought I just had about some printers is that they make up for low initial art charges by charging more on the backend (shirts printed). I know this was the case at the screen print shop I worked at prior to striking out on my own. Artwork was wrapped into the total cost of the job and was not itemized for the customer to see and thereby scrutinize. My boss would ask me how long a job would take and then charge accordingly in the initial quote. Of course, the customers were never just given their vector artwork to keep (giving them more of a possibility to take their design elsewhere for printing next time). If they requested the vector, it was assumed they were never coming back and they were charged a couple hundred for their file.
So I noticed when I started out and only offered design and not shirt printing fulfillment that I was missing out on a lucrative part of the business and as having difficulty competing with the shops like the one I used to work at because I had to charge more (from the client POV) for the artwork.
Mat Woodworth
www.boldlinedesign.com
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So I noticed when I started out and only offered design and not shirt printing fulfillment that I was missing out on a lucrative part of the business and as having difficulty competing with the shops like the one I used to work at because I had to charge more (from the client POV) for the artwork.
Mat Woodworth
[url=http://www.boldlinedesign.com]www.boldlinedesign.com[/url] ([url]http://www.boldlinedesign.com[/url])
Yes, this is another side of the art and tee quoting dilemma. IN a perfect world, everyone would charge the same and quotes would be itemized the same and customers could compare apples to apple and quality for that price.
Thats never going to happen and as it is, we have people burying art prices into the cost...making the per piece look high...and potentially losing a shirt order over that as well.
Then, (as I had just recently been talking with a printer about), if you were to line item an art charge of $200.00 but be $5.70 on shirt price for first time order, the customers go nuts because of the $200.00 art charge. They may say, "Well, X Co down the road doesn't charge me art at all" and charged me $5.75 on the per piece, but they don't see that X Co charged $25.00 for screens on the reorder and also $25.00 on the initial order.
It seems to be a "where can I hide charges" game and a play with the customers head (so they don't flip out) thing. To the printers point of view, I can certainly see customers that don't understand. THey can't grasp the differences and value. So more often than not, a charge is built in or hidden just to make life easier for everyone.
Another interesting thing I've learned over the years is that some printers may ask if you can work on a job at a lower price (as the order is low quantity) or the customer doesn't have the budget for the art.
What can tick me off tho, is that on occasions such as this, a printer can sometimes tell you this, but mark up the price 30%-50% like they do on any other cost once they've received a discount on art. Now, that (marking up a cost) in and of itself is not the problem, thats business. The problem is that (in this case), on this job... they've asked me to come down on something so they can get this order. I've worked with them on price, yet they've gone back and still marked that price up. I've given some off, but (THEY) have not taken any concessions in order to gain this order. What they should have done, to get the price lower, is just not mark up the art at all.
Asking me come down, "so they can help their customer" but they don't come down on anything...is deceitful.
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I was a freelance graphic designer for 8 years. Then I got a screen printing press to make myself a few shirts off craigslist. I was so burned out on doing graphic design and printing I got out of it. Now I am a screen printer. Being an artist is fun and rewarding only if you have the right clients. If your just getting started and you want to do high end it will not be easy. You will have to do crap work to get by until you can grow the high end part of your business. (unless you want to live poor) I did mid to high end design work mostly for professional services like doctors, accountants and other firm type companies. There is a ton of work out there but if you don't figure out business and making money you will not last. Most Artists want to do art all day long. That is not possible to do. You will get burned out in less than 4 years. You have to have another line of income. I learned this about 2 years in to my freelance work. With design or the design that I did I was always working with new clients. I would do 40 to 60 businesses a year and many times only work with them a few times in the first 6 months of them being a business. I just did design so I did all there marketing materials: logos, business cards, signage, websites so on. After that there was no need for me. I didn't want to do anything but design. It was easy for me and I could charge 10 to 15 hours for 2 or 3 hours of actual work. What I learned in year 2 was that I needed residual income. I needed money coming in on work that I did already. To do this I partnered with a few printers locally and a gang run printer (before gang run printers were all over the internet) Once I did that I was able to make 2 to 3 hundred percent profit on selling items at market value. I still did artwork but once the art work was done I made as much if not more supplying the print materials. I wasn't so burned out and I was able to do the art that I wanted to and not have to work so hard at always getting new clients.
For design work the screen printing industry would not be my first choice of industries to work with. Screen printers are cheap and always in a hurry (its true, you know it). There is not that many jobs that would allow high end design from most printers. What this means is you will need to have alot of screen printers as clients. You may only be able to get a few jobs a month to a few jobs a year from each of them. Now the good thing about the screen printing industry is there is alot of work. If you did all levels of design for a good price you will have too much work.
That's all I have.
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So I noticed when I started out and only offered design and not shirt printing fulfillment that I was missing out on a lucrative part of the business and as having difficulty competing with the shops like the one I used to work at because I had to charge more (from the client POV) for the artwork.
Mat Woodworth
[url=http://www.boldlinedesign.com]www.boldlinedesign.com[/url] ([url]http://www.boldlinedesign.com[/url])
Yes, this is another side of the art and tee quoting dilemma. IN a perfect world, everyone would charge the same and quotes would be itemized the same and customers could compare apples to apple and quality for that price.
Thats never going to happen and as it is, we have people burying art prices into the cost...making the per piece look high...and potentially losing a shirt order over that as well.
Then, (as I had just recently been talking with a printer about), if you were to line item an art charge of $200.00 but be $5.70 on shirt price for first time order, the customers go nuts because of the $200.00 art charge. They may say, "Well, X Co down the road doesn't charge me art at all" and charged me $5.75 on the per piece, but they don't see that X Co charged $25.00 for screens on the reorder and also $25.00 on the initial order.
It seems to be a "where can I hide charges" game and a play with the customers head (so they don't flip out) thing. To the printers point of view, I can certainly see customers that don't understand. THey can't grasp the differences and value. So more often than not, a charge is built in or hidden just to make life easier for everyone.
Another interesting thing I've learned over the years is that some printers may ask if you can work on a job at a lower price (as the order is low quantity) or the customer doesn't have the budget for the art.
What can tick me off tho, is that on occasions such as this, a printer can sometimes tell you this, but mark up the price 30%-50% like they do on any other cost once they've received a discount on art. Now, that (marking up a cost) in and of itself is not the problem, thats business. The problem is that (in this case), on this job... they've asked me to come down on something so they can get this order. I've worked with them on price, yet they've gone back and still marked that price up. I've given some off, but (THEY) have not taken any concessions in order to gain this order. What they should have done, to get the price lower, is just not mark up the art at all.
Asking me come down, "so they can help their customer" but they don't come down on anything...is deceitful.
You need to stop nogotiating price to get a job. Your customer is the screen printer not his customer. What I mean is deal with your customer (the screen printer) as the end customer for you. Your customer (the screen printer) needs the art to get the job If they can beat you up on price then they will to get the job. If they can't they will find somewhere else to cut costs or take a hit. So many times people say they don't like working with X and Y company because they can't make as good of money as they want. The truth is you need to stick to your guns on your price. If your "art" is worth it people will pay for it. If I needed great art work for a large order I wouldn't even charge the customer for the art. I would also not up my print cost to cover the art. Large orders are worth the cost of good art. plus by not charging the customer for the art they don't own it. They have to come back to me if they want ot print more. (or they steal it and have another printer reproduce the art, whatever) I usually do my own art so it is only time (time=money, whatever). If you discount art for one job you know that customer will find any reason they can to have to discount it on the next job. You will never be able to go back after going down that road with a customer. I believe in setting your price and then setting a bottom line discount price. This way when the customer is giving you the sad story, and you want to help them, you know not to go below a set predetermined price that your happy working at. I rarely give the discounted rate. Stick to your pricing its how you make money. After your paid, who cares if they up charge it or give it away. You sold that art, you made your money, move on.
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I personally don't give discounts all the time or "a lot", but I will occasionally. Most times someone is looking to keep colors down as much as possible when they say, "customer is on a tight budget for art".
2ndly, when I do give a discount, I am I only referring to those (that still up charge). And for this reason, it is my business what they charge afterwords. When I hear of this, (what makes me feel as if they are taking advantage of me), I drop them as a customer.
Lastly, when I do a discount, it's not for the reason that (I need the work), thinking that they may go elsewhere. I do it (when I do it), because I want to assist my customers. They (99.9%) of the time are truly just wanting to get this order. As any printer knows, there are "some orders" that need a little flexibility. I like to think that my customers know they can trust Dot-Tone-Dan is there (on their side) when they truly need some assistance.
Like I said, for me it's probably 1% or something that take advantage and when I sense this, I stop working with them.
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Brings up a thought and a couple of questions to me.
Should there generally be room for mark-up in the price from artists creating for printers?
Do most printers mark up the art they hire out?
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I personally don't give discounts all the time or "a lot", but I will occasionally. Most times someone is looking to keep colors down as much as possible when they say, "customer is on a tight budget for art".
2ndly, when I do give a discount, I am I only referring to those (that still up charge). And for this reason, it is my business what they charge afterwords. When I hear of this, (what makes me feel as if they are taking advantage of me), I drop them as a customer.
Lastly, when I do a discount, it's not for the reason that (I need the work), thinking that they may go elsewhere. I do it (when I do it), because I want to assist my customers. They (99.9%) of the time are truly just wanting to get this order. As any printer knows, there are "some orders" that need a little flexibility. I like to think that my customers know they can trust Dot-Tone-Dan is there (on their side) when they truly need some assistance.
Like I said, for me it's probably 1% or something that take advantage and when I sense this, I stop working with them.
Dan in my opinion that is how everyone should be. I hate to hear guys that work really hard tell me that they bend over backwards for certain customers and not get paid as much by them. I know we all need to put food on the table and pay rent and other bills. Maybe its that I am in a large town and have more possibilities for customers but If you don't let "bad" customers know they are bad or let them go your hurting your business. Its like the old 20/80 or 80/20 rule. 20 percent of your clients make you 80 percent of your income. Even if that customer is in your 20 percent if you have to work harder for them they may not be a good customer for you. Its hard to let customers go but I have done it many times in almost 6 years. I have to say every time I do I think about the lost money. But then shortly after I realize how much time and effect I was putting in to that customer was not worth the money. Good luck all with a great summer of business
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Brings up a thought and a couple of questions to me.
Should there generally be room for mark-up in the price from artists creating for printers?
Do most printers mark up the art they hire out?
I think that answer is going to be as consistent as pricing a print of 100 shirts 1 color front and back. You're going to get a different perspective and costing from everyone. We've seen the same shirt order (price check) range from 4.70-6.25 from 20 different printers. For this reason, as it pertains to art, you will see a (a different mark up) from 10 printers and 10 that don't mark it up at all.
I do tho, see the business thought behind marking the price up. When you buy an item, you have a % added into that cost so that you are "profitable", like blank goods. Oddly enough, I've heard of some people not even marking up the shirt at all...but they have a high print cost. I think no matter the recipe you use, you still need to build in markup (somewhere) for most all expenses or you will be out of business eventually. So why not mark up art? The only reason I can see, is because art can be all over the place for pricing. It's most often based on how much time is needed in a job.
As we all know, to charge a flat rate on art is great for quoting purposes, but never really good for profit. You may quote 5 hours on a job (you don't want to quote too high) or it will scare the customer. If you have a staff artist, paid them 20.00 per hr and charged the customer 25.00 per hour on a job for art services, and that job required 20 hours of work, but only 100 shirts, it becomes very difficult to charge the flat rate. Printers who have staff artist, often under quote art charges (based on estimated art ours to complete) to show a low cost for quoting purposes. I've seen more often than not, printers capping the art charge to 5 hours max and eating the rest if they go over, applying that added cost as a cost of doping business.
In light of that road I took above, I'd have to say no, It's my opinion, there should not generally be room for mark up on art charges. Let me say that I think this applies more toward (custom or creative) as well as high end art services.
The only time I could see marking up the art cost is when that cost is consistently on the lower end, like $25-$100 art charges. As in, (everything you did) pertaining to art, was a consistent price and time involved. Some artist work strictly in vector art (and master the use of clip art) and are more geared towards being an outside "production artist" versus a custom potentially hand drawn creative artist or one that specializes in high end seps. I've seen some shops (always) charge a flat rate of $50.00 for art. Never below or above. As a result, they can gear their artist searches for those that cater more towards production art type work and the printer can know that their art (cost) will always be either right at $50.00 or below.
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yep
cheap in....cheap out
If a printer wants to mark up, that's fine...as long as you, as the artist, get what you asked for.
I charge by the job and never worry about hours or any of that. If it's somethin I wanna do, it all works out. If a client or a printer wants me to take less so someone else can get more, then we're probably not gonna work out.
Be fair, be reasonable, get yours, have fun.