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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: cclaud3 on January 09, 2024, 10:16:08 AM
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We are 100% waterbased for the last 5 years out of 14 years. This is not day 1 problems.
We are getting dark spots in SOME of the ink colors on SOME of the discharge orders.
Some shirts print normal then go back to varying degrees on the images attached. Multiple orders exhibiting this.
The yellow/red images are from a 7 color print where it's only visible in the yellow ink. The other 6 inks are fine.
Mostly showing on Black Bella Canvas 3001. We try to mix in other test shirts while issue is happening but it's hard to determine if it's the shirt, ink or activator since the problem comes and goes.
Using clean mixing vessels, clean squeegees, nothing showing in the screens.
It's got to be the shirts right? Both of these images are on Bella 3001 Black ordered from different suppliers over a month apart.
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Do you have someone misting the ink in the screen? To me it looks like the mist could have been done without the ink there or wasn't fine enough. This should be more obvious if it is happening though so it's probably not that...
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This happened to us a long time ago and never really found the source of the problem. Couple things of note:
The problem usually was with a color that was flashed so if its really bad modify your print order.
We solved it before by changing pallet paper and having fresh glue.
Have not seen this problem in a while but also we do less discharge printing now.
Hopefully this helps!
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We've had this problem before, and I thought it was due to not enough penetration of the ink into the shirt, also ink not mixed very good on our part, and I've heard that some black shirts are really not true blacks but over dye of another colour which cause's a bad discharge.
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Thanks for the replies.
No one is misting the ink. We changed to print grip from regular platen tape last week-this issue happened before and after changing over.
We mix with a gyroscopic mixer for 3 minutes then scrape the lid with a card then mix with silicone spatulas to make sure it's 100%. then add activator, sit for at least 20 mins then go. We mix 10-25 batch of ink per day.
Plenty of pressure, 70/90/70 or 62/90/62 squeegees.
Activator supplier says no one has complained of issues.
Ink supplier says no one has complained of issues.
Shirt supplier says no one has complained of issues.
Mill supplier for Bella says no one has complained of issues.
Press tech says no way for press to leak any fluid in that area. I thought maybe that could be an outside possibility.
I just sent someone to pickup replacements in next level 3600. We will run these with the same screens & batches of ink to verify if it's a garment problem or not.
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possibly something to do with the screen. If it was in the ink, the dots would be elongated. I've seen similar problems when we had dirty reclaim water spray on the screens and leave reclaim chemicals on it. Not sure if this helps, but I would be looking at the reclaim to start...
pierre
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What mesh on the yellow? That looks like when you're shearing off fuzz from the shirt into the ink.
The green print when we've seen it I've always assumed it to be machine oil from the mill. I would wager the slightest
spray amount would interfere with the discharge reaction, and also transfer to subsequent prints, oil/water not mixing and all.
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225s murakami smart mesh on the yellow. #5 of 7 ink colors.
150s murakami smart mesh on the green. #1 of 2 ink colors.
It's spots not fuzz.
Non-discharge prints aren't showing spots but maybe the inks are covering them up.
We repurchased the shirts in another brand & model. 5 of the 40 had the same issue. So must not be the brand.
ROQ support feels the press is not spraying anything.
We consolidated (3) 5 gal buckets of activator that were all less than 1 year old. Did it a month or 2 ago. It's either that or the press is spraying something. don't hear any air leaks. Thanks for the response.
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We consolidated (3) 5 gal buckets of activator that were all less than 1 year old. Did it a month or 2 ago. It's either that or the press is spraying something. don't hear any air leaks. Thanks for the response.
Just curious is it CCI ? Not saying anything, just curious
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Yes it CCI
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Yes it CCI
Ah, okay. We had this happen towards the end of our time with that line. Great line for short runs under 1000 pieces but even over 500 pieces it gets interesting. We used it for years and years but migrated to another brand because of many small issues like this. Even with documenting everything and removing variables there were just too many inconsistencies towards the end for us. And the activator always had some issues if you didn't use it within a couple of weeks of opening. Just my opinion and experience
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Ok good to know. It's the only activator we used. Worked both for Matsui and now Magna for years. Just ordered another 5 gal to troubleshoot against so hopefully this next batch proves something. Thanks.
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Yes it CCI
Ah, okay. We had this happen towards the end of our time with that line. Great line for short runs under 1000 pieces but even over 500 pieces it gets interesting. We used it for years and years but migrated to another brand because of many small issues like this. Even with documenting everything and removing variables there were just too many inconsistencies towards the end for us. And the activator always had some issues if you didn't use it within a couple of weeks of opening. Just my opinion and experience
Who are you using now? We are pushing alot nore into discharge this spring and currently only using Matsui which has been great so far, but we are not doing multicolors that much yet.
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We ran into the same ting a few times a while back but on IND4000 hoodies. Nothing in the screen, that is too obvious, especially for those of us that print multiple DC/WB jobs a day. The only thing I can say that is the same as yours is we were using CCI for our pigments at that time. Not saying that is it, but that is the only thing from reading your post that we had in common....
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We started with Matsui but the wet on wet wasn't working on DC or Medium solids. Skin-like build up on bottom of screen.
Tried aquarius, printed the same as Matsui.
For the last few years we have been Magna pigments and bases with CCI activator.
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Its not the garment, press or screen, its the ink. Usually poor pigment grind. Can be found in either RFU or pigment/base. Most commonly found in red shade yellows and anything with yellow in it. Most pigments start out as cakes or powders and must be milled to a particular specific size and the better (more expensive ones) are milled in stages until they reach the specified particle size. Also could be impurities.
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We started with Matsui but the wet on wet wasn't working on DC or Medium solids. Skin-like build up on bottom of screen.
Tried aquarius, printed the same as Matsui.
For the last few years we have been Magna pigments and bases with CCI activator.
Just curious why are you using the CCI activator with Magna instead of the Magna activator??? Magna is what we switched everything too
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It's about a 1/3 less in price, easy to get and worked fine until a month ago. When we first started reps from each company said that activator is activator.
Just finished 960 DC prints on Gildans without any problems...not sure what is going on.
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It's about a 1/3 less in price, easy to get and worked fine until a month ago. When we first started reps from each company said that activator is activator.
Just finished 960 DC prints on Gildans without any problems...not sure what is going on.
I used to think that too but I just asked our production manager about when we were switching over and she confirmed that issues would arise when we tried to clear out the CCI activator by using it with the Magna inks. Like Tony said above things are milled / grinded differently. And I have been told that some activator is a ground to a finer powder hence the higher price. I believe the less the grind it seems to clump more even if small clumps / streaks its still annoying
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FWIW when I was mentioning oil spots I was referring to machine oil from the mill, not your press.
IE the kind that you'll see on white/light garments, but may not be visible on darks, unless you
print a reactive ink over them.
When Rutland WB-99 was discontinued (the bastards) we went to CCI pigs.
(had been using their bases for years). We've since seen odd stuff happen like this as well,
so we're on our way over to Matsui now.
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You are right about the Rutland WB-99......It was flawless and consistent. Haven't played with the Magna. And Pavonine was really good and different. Something like 30 pigments. If you wanted a brown PC you had three options.
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So far we are about 2000 prints into Gildan Heavy Cottons and no issues. I'm taking activator from the same bucket. Also, we fill a 1 gal bucket so the 5 gal doesn't get opened as often. So spots are only showing on Next Level & Bella. Crazy
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Question from someone that doesn't know any better, but couldn't you dissolve the activator in water or an ink additive before mixing it in?
I've started dissolving my cinnamon for French toast into vanilla extract because it mixes with the egg better.
Just a thought.
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Yes, I certainly can and it may help.
After years of consistency doing it the way we've been doing it I was looking for a definitive "ah yes, that's such and such causing that".
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Reprint #3 of same 2 color design from this morning. Brand new bucket of CCI activator. Same problem with dark spots.
Ran thousand of prints in between on gildans with other DC colors, etc and not a single problem.
Does not show on black gildans, tultex, district. Only shows on Bella & Next Levels.
Going to have to run this one with HSA to get it out the way.
Sourcing Magna brand activator for next test.
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Looking forward to your Magna activator testing. It definitely helped us
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Still occurring with Magna activator on black bellas & next levels.
Thousands of Gildans in assorted colors had no problem with CCI (previous) and Magna (new) activator.
Did not happen on 250 navy bellas. 2 color discharge front + 4 dc back. Magna Activator
Did not happen on 250 army bellas. 4 color discharge front + 4 dc back. Magna Activator
Re-ran the 2 color green/white dc print. Actually ran this 4 times using same screens for DC version. Final DC attempt was run on the backs of defect shirts from the first two attempts and they PRINTED FINE????
Ultimately ran HSA to complete for customer.
Today ran the 7 color DC on black bellas. Splotching/dots in red & yellow as previous attempts. Used magna activator.
So, have used 2 different activators. Same & new sets of screens for re-runs. New bottle of Yellow HG pigment. Thought it may be that since Yellow 021 is only made up o f Yellow HG.
Gildans run fine.
Only other logical thing I can think of is the US plastics mixing cups have some sort of contaminant in SOME of them.
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Still occurring with Magna activator on black bellas & next levels.
Thousands of Gildans in assorted colors had no problem with CCI (previous) and Magna (new) activator.
Did not happen on 250 navy bellas. 2 color discharge front + 4 dc back. Magna Activator
Did not happen on 250 army bellas. 4 color discharge front + 4 dc back. Magna Activator
Re-ran the 2 color green/white dc print. Actually ran this 4 times using same screens for DC version. Final DC attempt was run on the backs of defect shirts from the first two attempts and they PRINTED FINE????
Ultimately ran HSA to complete for customer.
Today ran the 7 color DC on black bellas. Splotching/dots in red & yellow as previous attempts. Used magna activator.
So, have used 2 different activators. Same & new sets of screens for re-runs. New bottle of Yellow HG pigment. Thought it may be that since Yellow 021 is only made up o f Yellow HG.
Gildans run fine.
Only other logical thing I can think of is the US plastics mixing cups have some sort of contaminant in SOME of them.
see what happens if you run them through the dryer first. Maybe it's the sizing.
pierre
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It was the air lines in the ROQ probe flashes. The airlines shoot little bursts of air every so often to cool the sensor. We use a chiller and check/drain the compressor's tank everyday, along with the drain on the press. A minuscule amount of oil/contaminant in the air lines...can't see it happening but flashes on (even at 75C) causes the dots/splattering. Mainly used the flashes to keep platens tacky.
Kept re-running the black fashion tee job(s) and ruining shirts, ran the job without flashes and it went away. The Weirdest thing is that the staining did not show on anything but Black Bella Canvas & Black Next Levels with discharge bases only.
We swapped to new batches of ink, pigment, activator, screens, mixing containers. Flashes off fixed it.
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That is interesting. Thank you for sharing