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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: GraphicDisorder on June 18, 2012, 03:55:11 PM
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I have avoided printing on Polyester for the longest time. What inks brand are you guys using?
Cure temp?
Special steps?
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just use regular ink, and get the garment as hot as you can. Preferably, make it melt a little, that way you know the ink is goo and in there.
I actually like Wilflex HT Polywhite. The first gallon was horrible, but it's gotten a lot better. Get the ink to 330 at the most. Try low and slow rather than hot and fast.
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I am using International Coatings Poly White and regular plastisols on top. They have a low cure additive for inks as well so you dont have to worry as much about dye migration.
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How are you using reg plastisols and still getting it cured? The few ive tried doing that get way to hot.....?
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If its on top of a poly white it should be ok. I did a test and got the ink up to 340 on a temp gun and it washed just fine.
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If its on top of a poly white it should be ok. I did a test and got the ink up to 340 on a temp gun and it washed just fine.
What about the garment melting? Thats the main issue we have had.
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Garment melting???
You should not see melting unless your over 400 degrees. (poly garments I am not sure but not less than 400) How are you measuring the temp?
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we were using IC and Wilflex, but we had a problem garment from Charles River Apparel, and ended up with Rutland, which we've used exclusively since. However, sometimes, it's the garment, no matter what ink. Low and slow works best here...
Steve
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There is a low temp cure Epic White out there that is supposed to need only 275 or so. We never got around to using it much as our electric radiant dryer only has two temperatures, burnt and scorched! :)
The silicone ink we have now is only available in white and black so if there are any other colors needed, we use the new QCM 170. It is by far the most bleed resistant plastisol we have tried.
pierre
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One stroke is all I use. I use a color max white for everything. I do not care to use 2 different whites, my printers have enough of a challenge to get the print correct and now you want them to remember what ink to use on certain fabrics. NOT!!!!!!@ and as far as other colors just go with one stroke. yes it is a little more but what cost more the ink or the extra hassle of not having the best ink possible.
I do not work for one stroke but man I love there ink.
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I have avoided printing on Polyester for the longest time. What inks brand are you guys using?
Cure temp?
Special steps?
Set my heat wave at 330, speed 3.5-4.0, we use Wilflex Poly white, print flash print, double strokes and no bleed issues, no cure issues. If it's a bit stretchy, use some Wilflex stretch additive, we never have an issue with the cure rate changing with the wilflex stretch additive. The only bleed issues we run into is when we do camo, which we do alot of, so we actually make a grey underbase with poly white and black mix, top coat with 2 heavy white coats, and no bleed.
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There is a low temp cure Epic White out there that is supposed to need only 275 or so. We never got around to using it much as our electric radiant dryer only has two temperatures, burnt and scorched! :)
The silicone ink we have now is only available in white and black so if there are any other colors needed, we use the new QCM 170. It is by far the most bleed resistant plastisol we have tried.
pierre
I was always wondering why inks have to be so hot to cure. It would be great if all inks cured at like 150 to 200 degrees. Just think of the savings in time and electric or gas. I asked one of the ink companies and they gave me a really good answer. If they cured at 200 degrees then if you left a bucket in the sun it could cure one side of the bucket. I never thought of that as a reason they keep the cure temps higher. Just thought I would share.
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Garment melting???
You should not see melting unless your over 400 degrees. (poly garments I am not sure but not less than 400) How are you measuring the temp?
Donut probe. We are 330-45 at the ink dryer at 406.
We ran some 50/50 recently and got some light discolor. but I'm wanting to do some that are much more sensitive. Like Dickie's work shirts and jackets.
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WILFLEX PERFORMANCE WHITE FAR OUT PERFORMS THE REST. IMO.
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Garment melting???
You should not see melting unless your over 400 degrees. (poly garments I am not sure but not less than 400) How are you measuring the temp?
Donut probe. We are 330-45 at the ink dryer at 406.
We ran some 50/50 recently and got some light discolor. but I'm wanting to do some that are much more sensitive. Like Dickie's work shirts and jackets.
You know dryers are one of those things that is hard to help on. I want to help but I am sure you have tried most of what I am going to say. I know the donut probe is what everyone raves about but what are your temps 1 to 2 feet inside the dryer with a gun. If the gun reads more than 400 then you’re too hot for the shirt material. Why the probe is not ready higher I don't know. If your discoloring you have to be higher than 330-45 on the shirt surface. I know when coming to discoloring or scorching the shirt brand will give you different results. I can't scorch a gildan 2000 if I wanted to. I printed some triple A's and they scorched easy. They are the only shirt I have scorched to date. If your printing 50/50 I just use Quick White with no issues. Depending on the color of the shirt I will underbase everything and use normal inks on top. I can't see buying ploy inks in colors. I do adjust my dryer a little but not a lot. (less heat and longer in the heat to cook all the way though. Hope my little rant helps.
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Our scorching was probably more over flashing than dryer. Either way the garments I want to do some printing on are super sensitive. So I feel like I need way low temp ink. Is that not what I should be after.
On dryer we also use a temp gun as well FYI.
Any of you specifically printed on Dickies?
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Our scorching was probably more over flashing than dryer. Either way the garments I want to do some printing on are super sensitive. So I feel like I need way low temp ink. Is that not what I should be after.
On dryer we also use a temp gun as well FYI.
Any of you specifically printed on Dickies?
Quartz flashes can scorch shirts fast. I have done that a few times. I always forget to lower the flash time. Sorry can't help with the Dickies.
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Wilflex Epic Poly white here. Works fine on Dickies, black/dark at least.
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Well I hear a lot of white answers. Just regular ink on colors?
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On top of a poly white base, yes.
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Wilflex Epic Performance
Low cure temp, about 290
smells weird
expensive
but gets the job done
We stock black, white, grey underbase and the base which we tint into colors by the amount needed with Epic PCs. *You cannot use the performance base with MX or Equalizers.
The white needs a little qec buster in there and the grey is too dark and needs cut with white and also the viscosity buster. We add the buster at about 1-2%, just needs a little.
Qcm made the ATP line which was also low cure and did well but has bizzaro print characteristics. I still have some opaque neons (read: small amount of white added) that are awesome in certain situations, but often those inks were a little too glossy for me. One amazing thing about the atp line is that you could print it through a 310. Reckon this is possible thanks to the special old pigment rollers Qcm had that Rutland now owns.
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We printed on some 100% black poly tops with Permaset Supercover waterbased inks. Came out great and had such a soft hand. I would not want to guarantee that those inks will work for every polyester top out there but the same can be said for Wilflex polyester inks.
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Some good suggestions in here. We've printed quite a few dickies/cornerstone brand shirts for auto type stuff before so this might help. Before running the job we run the all the shirts through the dryer at a slightly faster pace then we "cure" them at. Our dryer I usually have to drop 30 degrees from regular on the temp and speed up around 30%. This is just for setting the factory die in the shirt. Sometimes I've skipped this method and noticed some slight ink migration compared to the times when I have done it. I would suggest this. Check with the temp gun the garments aren't going over 320 deg. As for ink we use mostly all wilflex in our shop but for these shirts we do a mix between Wilflex epic quick white which is a 50/50 white we use as our std white and Union LB poly white. I mix would 60 quick white and 40 poly white for those shirts. Other then the obvious issues dealing with the buttons on the shirts, etc I print regular wilflex epic colors on top of that base. I keep some high density clear around and usually add just a touch of that to the color ink to give it a touch more body if guys are wearing them everyday washing them all the time. Raise the flash, lower the temp, etc as the ink just sits on top of those shirts. Use less pressure, flash faster and set the dryer so the shirt goes through pretty slow just hoovering over 300*. I've done poly jerseys for big name companies and never had any issues with this method/ink so maybe this will help. I've been dying to get my hands on some of the sillicon based ink but no luck from my suppliers so until then I'll just keep doing the above.
Danny
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Some good suggestions in here. We've printed quite a few dickies/cornerstone brand shirts for auto type stuff before so this might help. Before running the job we run the all the shirts through the dryer at a slightly faster pace then we "cure" them at. Our dryer I usually have to drop 30 degrees from regular on the temp and speed up around 30%. This is just for setting the factory die in the shirt. Sometimes I've skipped this method and noticed some slight ink migration compared to the times when I have done it. I would suggest this. Check with the temp gun the garments aren't going over 320 deg. As for ink we use mostly all wilflex in our shop but for these shirts we do a mix between Wilflex epic quick white which is a 50/50 white we use as our std white and Union LB poly white. I mix would 60 quick white and 40 poly white for those shirts. Other then the obvious issues dealing with the buttons on the shirts, etc I print regular wilflex epic colors on top of that base. I keep some high density clear around and usually add just a touch of that to the color ink to give it a touch more body if guys are wearing them everyday washing them all the time. Raise the flash, lower the temp, etc as the ink just sits on top of those shirts. Use less pressure, flash faster and set the dryer so the shirt goes through pretty slow just hoovering over 300*. I've done poly jerseys for big name companies and never had any issues with this method/ink so maybe this will help. I've been dying to get my hands on some of the sillicon based ink but no luck from my suppliers so until then I'll just keep doing the above.
Danny
Thanks for the tips!
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Some good suggestions in here. We've printed quite a few dickies/cornerstone brand shirts for auto type stuff before so this might help. Before running the job we run the all the shirts through the dryer at a slightly faster pace then we "cure" them at. Our dryer I usually have to drop 30 degrees from regular on the temp and speed up around 30%. This is just for setting the factory die in the shirt. Sometimes I've skipped this method and noticed some slight ink migration compared to the times when I have done it. I would suggest this. Check with the temp gun the garments aren't going over 320 deg. As for ink we use mostly all wilflex in our shop but for these shirts we do a mix between Wilflex epic quick white which is a 50/50 white we use as our std white and Union LB poly white. I mix would 60 quick white and 40 poly white for those shirts. Other then the obvious issues dealing with the buttons on the shirts, etc I print regular wilflex epic colors on top of that base. I keep some high density clear around and usually add just a touch of that to the color ink to give it a touch more body if guys are wearing them everyday washing them all the time. Raise the flash, lower the temp, etc as the ink just sits on top of those shirts. Use less pressure, flash faster and set the dryer so the shirt goes through pretty slow just hoovering over 300*. I've done poly jerseys for big name companies and never had any issues with this method/ink so maybe this will help. I've been dying to get my hands on some of the sillicon based ink but no luck from my suppliers so until then I'll just keep doing the above.
Danny
Nope, I am not going to let this one just go. I call bullsh1t! This is a myth that has been circulating for at least as long as I can remember that has no scientific basis. In fact, most experts with whom I've discussed this tend to think that it can actually exacerbate the bleeding problem by further exciting the dye molecules.
I accept folks' results and anecdotal reports of success, but would challenge them to do true double blind testing and ideally, with comparing the same garments cut in half to rule out inconsistencies in dye lots.
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We use Wilflex poly white and One stroke for all of the rest of our poly inks.
We drill stir them before each use.
Our dryer is set at 350 degrees for about 50 seconds in the chamber.
Most of the time we will catch each garment as it come out of the dryer.
Let them cool down before stacking them together.
Good luck :-* :-*
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One stroke is all I use. I use a color max white for everything. I do not care to use 2 different whites, my printers have enough of a challenge to get the print correct and now you want them to remember what ink to use on certain fabrics. NOT!!!!!!@ and as far as other colors just go with one stroke. yes it is a little more but what cost more the ink or the extra hassle of not having the best ink possible.
I do not work for one stroke but man I love there ink
I have to agree we do many many Poly t's for baseball teams and also football workout t's we normally use Don Allison for our brand but have used others. Before I found One Stroke I was adding cat. to our inks and now One Stroke is all we use and the shirts I still see that has been printed for 2 to 3 years are still holding up even the white. So I am sold on that ink and it works great on my inline numbering also. It is a choice you will have to make but I like to see what the print looks like after a year or so after it is printed, then you can see what kind of ink you have.
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[/quote]
Nope, I am not going to let this one just go. I call bullsh1t! This is a myth that has been circulating for at least as long as I can remember that has no scientific basis. In fact, most experts with whom I've discussed this tend to think that it can actually exacerbate the bleeding problem by further exciting the dye molecules.
I accept folks' results and anecdotal reports of success, but would challenge them to do true double blind testing and ideally, with comparing the same garments cut in half to rule out inconsistencies in dye lots.
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Frog, we can certainly debate this one on here but my real world experience on this matter tells me otherwise which makes this a mute point. I will say every polyester jersey/shirt acts differently from one another and from batch to batch as you apparently know. I print dye sub and other jerseys on a daily if not weekly basis. Most of which come straight from companies that manf. or high end contract companies adding designs to already decorated shirts. I have had reps from 2 major companies through my shop both of which have spent time talking about this issue with ink migration vs improperly set garment dyes. Just last year we had a run of over 2000 of these $89.00 each blanks in which every one I could rub against another section of the garment and the factory dye would come right off. Luckily not many were printed before we caught the problem but running these through the dryer with our settings completely fixed the problem. After resting the ink could no longer be rubbed out of the garment. This was proof to my eyes this method worked and I have encountered this numerous times since. It's a pretty rare deal which only helps certain factory troubled garments but my real world testing has shown it works, bottom line bullsh!t whatever you want to call it or not. Has your real world testing not shown that this works? What garments do you print on?
Thanks
Here's a couple photos from the last couple weeks of some decorated dye sub jerseys 100% polyester. Most of which we do are precision placements that need to be done with a laser......Not real fun stuff
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/dgrun86/photo-15.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/dgrun86/photo-19.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/dgrun86/photo-17.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/dgrun86/photo-16.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/dgrun86/photo-18.jpg)
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Danny, you do a more than a hundred times the printing on polyester than I do, of that there is no doubt.
I am just reiterating what ink and garment chemists and techs have been telling me for thirty years; that running poly or blends down the dryer first, does not aid in stopping sublimation type bleeding or dye migration.
As for dye being so bad that it just rubs off, I have experienced that with some Mikasa volleyball jerseys that the high school brought in. They were white and cardinal, and just from being shipped, the white side panels had cardinal ruboff.
I merely cad cut and pressed the shirts with numbers and a team name, and they said that the cardinal red marks washed out in the first laundry. Not really my concern, them being customer supplied, but I was glad for them.
I am impressed with your skill and good luck with poly, and I truly admire that. In that respect you are a far better man than I. ;)
I just still do not believe that pre-heating the poly helps keep them from bleeding.
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Frog, I hear ya! I wouldn't doubt the theory behind what you've been told but as you'll probably agree somethings can't really be explained except in real world application. I only believe this because I've personally achieved success(only on certain garments with certain issues) but none the less what works for one doesn't work for another. If I ever run across another batch of what I'm talking about I will shoot a video as with the garments I'm speaking of it will probably change your mind haha! Thanks for the kind words, I certainly try to put a lot of effort into what we do here.
:)
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I can see that making sense. Does it work on American Apparel 50/50 2001's. I have a bunch of them here. I already had some safety orange color ones bleed on me. (I hate 50/50)