TSB
screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: virgil427 on May 25, 2011, 02:39:13 PM
-
I would like to hear everybodies opinions on which emulsions they use and why. In dougs post he talks about diazo emul. holding good halftones, I was steered towards photopolymer for halftone printing and don't have any diazo left to compare, use to use cci dxp dual cure. I'm useing ryonet HI-Fi with 47% solids and am enjoying using this, but always open to new ideas. Bottom line is one better than the other ?
-
For the best hi-end process and sim process the diazo will hold more information. Its cheaper but slower and tends to have a more limited shelf life than photopolymers.
So theres the short answer.
best tp
-
My emulsion of choice is: Chromaline UDC-2
http://chromaline.com/productDetail.aspx?PID=48 (http://chromaline.com/productDetail.aspx?PID=48)
-- wide exposure latitude
-- easy reclaim
-- decent water resistant
-- good detail (as far as I can see ??)
-- fair price
I mix a gallon of clear with a pint of dyed to get a "see-through" effect.... it allows me to see through the screen for both registration -AND- I can see if ink is building up on the underside of my auto screens. Yet, it still has enough dye to see pin-holes and to verify the screen is clear after reclaim.
Most of the time I'll sensitize 1/2 a gallon at a time... then shelf life is less of a concern.
-
I've been back in forth a few times but settled, once again, on Aquasol HVP (pink instead of blue). It's a photopolymer that has excellent water resistance, if you need it, with proper expo and post-exposure and high solids. You must, must, must, have your exposures and resolution process absolutely dialed to run halftones. If you're not going higher than 55 lpi it is an excellent singular emulsion.
Kiwo One Coat is very similar and has more of "soft" feel to it, a bit easier to reclaim and resolve and cleans off a little better from the mesh.
I love dual cures as well. Proclaim from Ulano was great, as was Kiwo's Poly Z which had a luxuriously low rz value to the finished stencil, printed so smooth. But I don't care for the 2.5 ish ltu exposure times and the shelf life, and the mixing of the diazo. For 90% of what we do, a photopolymer is just dandy. Dual cure cap film is the bees knees in certain situations requiring very consistent stencil thickness and high detail.
Any high-end emulsion is really going to perform well compared to a similar spec from mfg to mfg.
The big difference I see in photopolymer v. dual cure is latitude. As in, photopoly has very little and dual cure has a lot. Photopolymers are very "on or off". You either got it right or you didn't, more or less. To this end I confidently shoot, soak and resolve with our 3000psi pressure washer. This goes for high eom, big open area images and thin eom halftones and fine lines.
In short, I like the workflow you get with photopolymers and I like the crazy resolution dual cures provide.
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
-
I've been back in forth a few times but settled, once again, on Aquasol HVP (pink instead of blue). It's a photopolymer that has excellent water resistance, if you need it, with proper expo and post-exposure and high solids. You must, must, must, have your exposures and resolution process absolutely dialed to run halftones. If you're not going higher than 55 lpi it is an excellent singular emulsion.
Kiwo One Coat is very similar and has more of "soft" feel to it, a bit easier to reclaim and resolve and cleans off a little better from the mesh.
I love dual cures as well. Proclaim from Ulano was great, as was Kiwo's Poly Z which had a luxuriously low rz value to the finished stencil, printed so smooth. But I don't care for the 2.5 ish ltu exposure times and the shelf life, and the mixing of the diazo. For 90% of what we do, a photopolymer is just dandy. Dual cure cap film is the bees knees in certain situations requiring very consistent stencil thickness and high detail.
Any high-end emulsion is really going to perform well compared to a similar spec from mfg to mfg.
The big difference I see in photopolymer v. dual cure is latitude. As in, photopoly has very little and dual cure has a lot. Photopolymers are very "on or off". You either got it right or you didn't, more or less. To this end I confidently shoot, soak and resolve with our 3000psi pressure washer. This goes for high eom, big open area images and thin eom halftones and fine lines.
In short, I like the workflow you get with photopolymers and I like the crazy resolution dual cures provide.
I've tried a couple of dual cures, but could not get them to work. Granted, it was not a very serious try, but I am pretty happy with Aquasolv HV and am having a hard time devoting more RnD time to new emulsions. It has been said before that halftones would benefit from a dual cure, but here I am, to lazy to embrace the change.
With Aquasolv HV, I coat 2+2 on 110's 2+1 on rest of the statics. EZ frames with "S" mesh get 1+1 as does the LX. On 330 S mesh we hold a 3% dot at 55, so I cant really complain. We use an Nuarc 3140 to expose, Film Maker for RIP and ALWAYS a pressure washer to wash out.
The reality is, we all have our own opinions as to what emulsion we like, but it would be nice get some answers from the real experts.
-
I am currently using Image Mate 701. It is an SBQ emulsion with 52% solids, fast exposure times, reclaims well. I have done a couple of jobs with half tones and it seemed to work really good. I have no complaints at this time.
-
I am currently using the Chromaline Blue i was told it had a longer shelf life (I have a small shop). before that i was using the Ulano Proclaim both worked very well but it seemed like if i kept the ulano longer than 2 months i ended up throwing half of it away.
-
For those of you using the Aquasol, keep on eye on the boards. Got a product in from CCI that may give it a run for
it's money.
-
Two things.
1. Not so much the emulsion as the exposure unit.
2. Not so much the carrier as getting a firm adhesion to the screen of the art.
With regards to detail and number 1 an expensive exposure unit is not necessarily better.
With regards to detail and number 2 a Direct to Screen unit would all but eliminate any loss regardless of the light source.
The key to remember here is that there is not a single solution to the problem, but a combination of parameters that must be understood.
This industry has failed the end user by not educating you on the parameters that affect your day to day operations.
I am thinking of writing a series on these parameters that take into account that no 2 shops are the same, but the desired end result is.
-
Sonny i figured this thread would pull you out of the weeds. The shirt is on its way (i remembered) just getting things dailed in, been a little busy with family matters.That was Medium womens right? ;D
-
Sonny i figured this thread would pull you out of the weeds. The shirt is on its way (i remembered) just getting things dailed in, been a little busy with family matters.That was Medium womens right? ;D
Uh Yes I Think. Shirt? Getting senile in my old age. :o :o
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
It is a Diazo “Dual Cure” emulsion with a light green tint, relatively fast exposure for a dual cure, easy to see for production needs and user friendly.
Similar with other features is KIWO Quantum.
-
I tried Ulano Proclaim, great detail but takes forever and ever to expose (100 light units on 40-1K Mercury). I tried a couple of different ones recently because I want to settle on the one I will be using constantly and I think I have found it..... Chromablue from Chromaline.
It looks pretty good on a detail and it takes 30 light units to expose (110-155 white screens, 37 for dyed 230's).
-
Two things.
1. Not so much the emulsion as the exposure unit.
2. Not so much the carrier as getting a firm adhesion to the screen of the art.
With regards to detail and number 1 an expensive exposure unit is not necessarily better.
With regards to detail and number 2 a Direct to Screen unit would all but eliminate any loss regardless of the light source.
The key to remember here is that there is not a single solution to the problem, but a combination of parameters that must be understood.
This industry has failed the end user by not educating you on the parameters that affect your day to day operations.
I am thinking of writing a series on these parameters that take into account that no 2 shops are the same, but the desired end result is.
True and yet not true. This thread could go on forever and I'm sure Richard and Doug and others will chime in however........assuming equal and optimum exposure calculation, vacum PSI, coating technique, etc the emulsion has very much a lot to do with the final stencil outcome. Then again we all have different standards.
tp
-
Sonny mentioned direct to screen. If anyone wants to start a thread on that, I'll jump in. Been using one about 5 years.
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
It is a Diazo “Dual Cure” emulsion with a light green tint, relatively fast exposure for a dual cure, easy to see for production needs and user friendly.
Similar with other features is KIWO Quantum.
Thanks Doug, its a funny story that goes along the line of your other thread about frustration and vendors not giving a poop about the buyer. I actually got the gallon of TLX from a local very very small manual printer. He would be lucky if he used a gallon in 6 months time. His vendor sold him the TLX and he thought before it arrived it would be pure not diazo. I traded him a gallon of QLT since we use roughly two gallons a month or more here.
Just goes to show how can a vendor sell someone an emulsion to someone knowing they will not use it in 2 months min and have a poor light source to start with.
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
It is a Diazo “Dual Cure” emulsion with a light green tint, relatively fast exposure for a dual cure, easy to see for production needs and user friendly.
Similar with other features is KIWO Quantum.
Thanks Doug, its a funny story that goes along the line of your other thread about frustration and vendors not giving a poop about the buyer. I actually got the gallon of TLX from a local very very small manual printer. He would be lucky if he used a gallon in 6 months time. His vendor sold him the TLX and he thought before it arrived it would be pure not diazo. I traded him a gallon of QLT since we use roughly two gallons a month or more here.
Just goes to show how can a vendor sell someone an emulsion to someone knowing they will not use it in 2 months min and have a poor light source to start with.
If you can divide the gallon into 4 parts (if you have the containers) and sort the diazo into 4 parts - mixing as you need. You do not even have to use a scale and get it “super exact” a careful eyeball will work.
TLX and Quantum are my current dual cure favs because of the light easy to see past tint, and the slightly shorter exposure times. With a good positive you can get very good results even with low power units and it coats very nice (both).
-
assuming equal and optimum exposure calculation, vacum PSI, coating technique, etc the emulsion has very much a lot to do with the final stencil outcome. Then again we all have different standards.
tp
Without a doubt, with the targeted variables removed each and every emulsion product has “features” and demands that are different from the others.
There are the five (actually six but not generally available) emulsion types in “catagories” and each of them can have specific features within that group.
Diazo alone has everything from water resistance to longevity in “main/strong” features to choose from.
-
If you can divide the gallon into 4 parts (if you have the containers) and sort the diazo into 4 parts - mixing as you need. You do not even have to use a scale and get it “super exact” a careful eyeball will work.
After the dreaded orange finger tips from the first quart, latex gloves seem to become a natural part of this operation.
Ask me how I know.
And, as you pointed out, with a flat blade, it's easy to halve and halve again for some pretty even quarters.
-
When he called me up disturbed that he had to mix the emulsion/diazo I explained he could divide it and mix more as needed but he really wanted a straight out of the bucket pure photo polymer, I gladly traded I love trying new emulsions and I have heard the LX series are good.
-
When he called me up disturbed that he had to mix the emulsion/diazo I explained he could divide it and mix more as needed but he really wanted a straight out of the bucket pure photo polymer, I gladly traded I love trying new emulsions and I have heard the LX series are good.
Tell us how you like it...
Oh and we want photos (emulsion stencil porn) BTW...
-
I will, printing a 4cp with a light white underbase next week will try the new emulsion on that and see how it does.
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
It is a Diazo “Dual Cure” emulsion with a light green tint, relatively fast exposure for a dual cure, easy to see for production needs and user friendly.
Similar with other features is KIWO Quantum.
Is TLX same as RLX, just lighter in diazo color?
-
Does anyone here have any experience with Ulano's TLX diazo emulsion?
It is a Diazo “Dual Cure” emulsion with a light green tint, relatively fast exposure for a dual cure, easy to see for production needs and user friendly.
Similar with other features is KIWO Quantum.
Is TLX same as RLX, just lighter in diazo color?
Lighter dye, faster exposure, easy set-up from the higher visibility, I believe you are correct about the relationship.
It is the visibility and faster speed that makes it more attractive for use with lower powered exposure units.
-
Yes, the raw formula for RLX & TLX are the same.
Light green TLX is 20% faster than RLX because it is easier to see through.
-
We didn't care for CCI emulsions. We love aquasol hv. Great support from Allan
-
We use KIWO polyplus Z on low mesh and KIWO SRX on high mesh. They have the best resolution, we have invited other companies to do side by side tests and the SRX has the best resolution.
They also both have a very wide latitude of exposure which is critical unless you are running a laboratory not a production facility. Latitude of exposure helps with different employees coating, with exposure bulbs not changed necessarily when they should be, and importantly with light meters not exactly reading the same light wavelength as exposes screens.
We use Saati or Murakami cap films for doing HD work, we haven't seen anything but those two work effectively.
-
We use RLX exclusively. We used to do like Rick, with RLX for high and 925WR for low. It turned out we were not organized enough for two emusions. Finally I got good price for RLX, and it's near perfect.
What I want better:
-more solids: RLX has 38%. 42%-44% would be great. Which one is closest in characteristics?
-shorter exposure. We ordered 4 gal of TLX to test. It all needs to be shipped from USA. No stock of TLX in Europe
-and of course Price: ;) it's always too expensive...
Boris
-
I'm right with you on not being organized enough or care to run 2 emulsions.
A few years ago I started playing around with sensitizing pure photopolymers.
You might try Nazdar's Purecoat (IMS905, Ulano product relabeled), we add Ulano Diazo C-10D and in this combination it will be very similar to RLX (I used RLX for like 10 years), but has 48% or so solids and exposes faster. I get a great deal on it, but buy a lot from Nazdar.
Kiwo One Coat with the diazo is another that will emmulate a dual cure but with higher solids and faster exposure, decent price. Many here swear by Murakami Aquasol HV as well, another pp emulsion that can be used with diazo, solids is a bit low on it my opinion though.
-
Kiwo One Coat with the diazo is another that will emmulate a dual cure but with higher solids and faster exposure, decent price. Many here swear by Murakami Aquasol HV as well, another pp emulsion that can be used with diazo, solids is a bit low on it my opinion though.
Aquasol HV has 42% solids count.
-
I'm right with you on not being organized enough or care to run 2 emulsions.
A few years ago I started playing around with sensitizing pure photopolymers.
You might try Nazdar's Purecoat (IMS905, Ulano product relabeled), we add Ulano Diazo C-10D and in this combination it will be very similar to RLX (I used RLX for like 10 years), but has 48% or so solids and exposes faster. I get a great deal on it, but buy a lot from Nazdar.
What do you gain by adding diazo to pure photopolymers? Water resistance?
How much do you add? And you can buy it separataly without emulsion?
Boris
-
I'm right with you on not being organized enough or care to run 2 emulsions.
A few years ago I started playing around with sensitizing pure photopolymers.
You might try Nazdar's Purecoat (IMS905, Ulano product relabeled), we add Ulano Diazo C-10D and in this combination it will be very similar to RLX (I used RLX for like 10 years), but has 48% or so solids and exposes faster. I get a great deal on it, but buy a lot from Nazdar.
What do you gain by adding diazo to pure photopolymers? Water resistance?
How much do you add? And you can buy it separataly without emulsion?
Boris
Water resistance yes, but also exposure latitude, which to me translates to consistent detail every time. Dual cures will give you great latitude and great detail as well, but they are slower to expose and I've never used one that could build up as thick a stencil in the same coating method as a pure photopolymer because dual cures are typically lower solids. So for me it's the speed of the exposure and the quick buildup. Also when needed I can make a very thick stencil with fewer coats.
I buy single serving gallon diazo bottles from Nazdar, Ulano C-10D and pour off each gallon from 5's (IMS905 Purecoat) and then add the diazo to a single gallon. I buy the diazo seperately, Nazdar Pennsaken, NJ stocks the diazo.
-
with all the conditions calculated properly...hands down dual cures give better resolution...yes as tony said slower but the results are better. just my .02
-
So out of everyone's experience, what emulsion would you recommend for printing water based and discharge. A product proven, to hold up to more than 200 passes. So far, I've tried a couple image mate products, Saati- Textile DW, Ryonet/CCI WBP hybrid emulsion, and so far best has been Chromaline CP-tex. After getting a sick deal on a 10,000 watt Richmond Screen Maker, our biggest issue is fixed from bad exposures. Now, just trying to find that good all around emulsion for W/B printing. The CP Tex exposes fairly fast for Diazo, but issues with the image area being tough to wash out. I can expose the same image using Chroma Blue PP and have an expose and wash out as you would normally expect. Exposing the CP-tex, the image area almost always ends up partially exposed. Same image, same exposure time, using either the Saati, or the CCI, image area washes out as normal, it just seems those don't hold up as well on press. Also the CP-tex has been very touchy with pot life. My first gallon turned into a 3/4 of a gallon booger within 3 weeks of mixing. Now I keep it in the a/c and that seems to help a little bit. I would really rather end up all at one emulsion to keep it as simple as possible. I read up on Ulano 925 I think as being the "liquid Steele" of emulsion. I appreciate the help guys!
Thanks
Mike
-
Are you post exposing and using a wipe on (non permanent) hardener?
CCI TexCoat holds up to thousands and thousands of discharge impressions with the above,
and without the addition of diazo.
I like it when the sun is out.
-
I had started using harden x. Then after drying either putting back in the exposure unit for a bit or setting in the sun. I will see if I can try a little of the CCI that you mentioned. A one part would be awesome.
-
I use the CCI 25WR, blockout w/leftover emulsion, post expose, and apply hardener X so far screens have held up to over 5K impressions w/discharge
-
Thanks Tony
-
Bringing this thread back because what I want to say isn't worthy of a new thread and isn't so much a complaint as is it a comparison of emulsions.
I currently 80% through my gallon of Chromablue which I'm trying and comparing to my usual Aquasol HV for the pure photo-polymer side of printing. The Chromablue had a different odor than the aquasol, strangely stronger and sharper when first opened and stirred. Went to coat screens today and opened it up, it's about half full, and the smell oh my god. It brought me back to my college days when we'd pass out from a party and the keg would warm up to room temperature and then we'd try to ice it down a few days later and drink it lol. THAT smell, skunky beer! Anyone agree?
The other more noteable thing is something that Alan has mentioned before. I use double sided sticky tape for my films on my reg unit and damned if the tape NEVER comes off the chromablue. I never had an issue with Aquasol doing that but it actually is a pain in the ass because I have to cover it or it will pick up shirts and ruin registration.
Another thing I noticed was the consistency of the Chromablue was much runnier than the Aquasol. I can layer the aquasol with the round edge on a 110 2 coats outside, flip&rotate, and 3 coats inside all day without fear of drips. If I try that with the Chromablue I have to be extremely careful not to wait too long for the coat stroke or emulsion will seep through and actually drip when drying near the bottom.
-
try kiwo discharge emulsion. its blue, photo emulsion, cleans up fast and is good for plastisol or discharge and waterbase and is cheaper than Ulano Qtx that I have been using for 14 years and it $40 cheaper than chromaline blue. Cleans up easy. Nazdar will give you a free sample.
-
I like the murakami sp-1400
prints all textile inks
great detail and lowest cost emulsion even
-
try kiwo discharge emulsion. its blue, photo emulsion, cleans up fast and is good for plastisol or discharge and waterbase and is cheaper than Ulano Qtx that I have been using for 14 years and it $40 cheaper than chromaline blue. Cleans up easy. Nazdar will give you a free sample.
I'd like to give it a try. Where do you buy yours from? Nazdar's price is $68 which is $6 more than Aquasol HV.
-
I ordered a gallon of kiwo discharge based on Jay's love for it -so we'll give it a go. should be here today. I also tried the chromablue a while back, it did smell like donkey piss, so did Ulano QX-1 . I have about 15 different kinds of dual cure's in the shop right now. Also a few odd ball SBQ, Ulano Orange is actually pretty nice stuff too for a fast exposing emulsion, cheap too.. We tried chromaline 521 and had amazing results compared to our standard emulsion, Chromaline CT-R, it's an sbq, basically it's chromablue but red in color. or pink -whatever. I never used a dual cure until a month ago when we started to mess with discharge. . .I am looking for that one pot emulsion for WB, Discharge and plastisol. I am hoping the Kiwo is the ticket. BUt if we have to keep two emulsions on hand, I'm cool with that. . .just buy more screens!
-
I ordered a gallon of kiwo discharge based on Jay's love for it -so we'll give it a go. should be here today. I also tried the chromablue a while back, it did smell like donkey piss, so did Ulano QX-1 . I have about 15 different kinds of dual cure's in the shop right now. Also a few odd ball SBQ, Ulano Orange is actually pretty nice stuff too for a fast exposing emulsion, cheap too.. We tried chromaline 521 and had amazing results compared to our standard emulsion, Chromaline CT-R, it's an sbq, basically it's chromablue but red in color. or pink -whatever. I never used a dual cure until a month ago when we started to mess with discharge. . .I am looking for that one pot emulsion for WB, Discharge and plastisol. I am hoping the Kiwo is the ticket. BUt if we have to keep two emulsions on hand, I'm cool with that. . .just buy more screens!
SP-1400 prints all WB, discharge, plastisol
$37 a gallon...
only thing about it is harder to reclaim since it's water resistant but if I can figure that out we might change to only that emulsion
-
Nazdars list price is $68 does anybody actually pay list price? Get the free sample. That sample converted me.
-
Bringing this thread back because what I want to say isn't worthy of a new thread and isn't so much a complaint as is it a comparison of emulsions.
I currently 80% through my gallon of Chromablue which I'm trying and comparing to my usual Aquasol HV for the pure photo-polymer side of printing. The Chromablue had a different odor than the aquasol, strangely stronger and sharper when first opened and stirred. Went to coat screens today and opened it up, it's about half full, and the smell oh my god. It brought me back to my college days when we'd pass out from a party and the keg would warm up to room temperature and then we'd try to ice it down a few days later and drink it lol. THAT smell, skunky beer! Anyone agree?
The other more noteable thing is something that Alan has mentioned before. I use double sided sticky tape for my films on my reg unit and damned if the tape NEVER comes off the chromablue. I never had an issue with Aquasol doing that but it actually is a pain in the ass because I have to cover it or it will pick up shirts and ruin registration.
Another thing I noticed was the consistency of the Chromablue was much runnier than the Aquasol. I can layer the aquasol with the round edge on a 110 2 coats outside, flip&rotate, and 3 coats inside all day without fear of drips. If I try that with the Chromablue I have to be extremely careful not to wait too long for the coat stroke or emulsion will seep through and actually drip when drying near the bottom.
I know the smell of skunky keg beer very well, and chromablue does smell like mildewed hell beer. I do find it weird that it dripped so badly on you because it's solids content is pretty high so it takes a very thick deposit to drip or very open mesh counts. I wonder if you got a bad batch. I thought it's solids content was higher than the aquasol HV but I could be wrong. I think the chroma is around 48-50% if I remember correctly. It will drip but only under extreme conditions. The only real drawback I've had with the chromablue is it's post exposure tackiness. It will ruin a new or old piece of film if we don't put some baby powder on it before we put the film positive on.
I tried a quart of PC-701 that was very much like the chromablue but without the substrate side tack. I've considered going to that for a few months to try it out more that way we could retire the baby powder portion of the exposure process.
I wish there was an emulsion with a high solids content, 48-52%, pure photopolymer or one pot/ready to use that would hold detail like a dual cure, stand up to discharge and WB inks and expose as quickly as PP does. Is that asking too much?
-
Al -check out the Kiwo Discharge Jay is talking about, I got my gallon in today - have a mess of screens to coat tomorrow. It may be the ticket, atleast according to the description. .. maybe Jason will chime in here about. . .for the record, Ulano Orange is pretty damn cool. dries really fast 2/1, exposes in a minute, dries in less than 5 under a fan. . .really nice
-
I'm having lunch with my rep that deals Kiwo tomorrow and I'll see if he can get me a sample of that emulsion Jason has plugged a few times. As good as I think Ulano is, I've only sampled one or two of their emulsions over the years. I'll see if I can't get a sample of the orange as well. Let me know if you can build a thick stencil with that Kiwo Homer.
-
Nazdars list price is $68 does anybody actually pay list price?
Yep, guess I do? I don't order from Nazdar because their prices are always ridiculous.
Example:
Chromablue at Nazdar = $94.54 / gallon
Chromablue at Atlas = $62.10 / gallon
Guess I'm not big enough for a rep to stop by to give me better pricing. I've always found their online ordering system lacking as well. You can't track your order, no tracking numbers, so one day it just shows up. Didn't want this to turn into a rant about Nazdar, but damn it's almost like Alpha or Broder. The small time suckers who still order from them at per piece pricing thinking they can't get a better deal.
Hey it says Tubelite is a Kiwo dealer and I actually HAVE a Tubelite guy that visits me and gives me good pricing before I even order anything! I'll call and order a gallon from him.
-
Didn't want this to turn into a rant about Nazdar, but damn it's almost like Alpha or Broder.
tell me about it ::) , I still use broder for 99.5% of my goods, I think they dropped the ball for the last time. .. however pricing is a whole 'nother beast, I have to type in my own price I want to pay in the comments section of the order. . .yeah, I don't know why I'm doing it either. .Bodek, here I come
-
I do a 2/1 coat with the kiwo discharge with the sharp side of the coater and get a good emulsion deposit. I have been running it for about 3 weeks now and I still can not find anything wrong with it. I have not ran a LONG run of discharge, but it held up great for short runs. My detail is just as good as when I used QTX. I am interested to see what everyone else thinks if anyone tries it. I didnt think I would EVER give up QTX, since I have had nothing but great success with it for 14 years, but the more waterbase and discharge I do, I had to make a change. So far its the best I have tried. I just wanted a single emulsion for everything. Dont think I need to look any further. Just my opinion.
-
I do a 2/1 coat with the kiwo discharge with the sharp side of the coater and get a good emulsion deposit. I have been running it for about 3 weeks now and I still can not find anything wrong with it. I have not ran a LONG run of discharge, but it held up great for short runs. My detail is just as good as when I used QTX. I am interested to see what everyone else thinks if anyone tries it. I didnt think I would EVER give up QTX, since I have had nothing but great success with it for 14 years, but the more waterbase and discharge I do, I had to make a change. So far its the best I have tried. I just wanted a single emulsion for everything. Dont think I need to look any further. Just my opinion.
I'll be getting a sample in soon I hope. The Kiwo technical rep will be coming by here next week and we plan on talking about this in detail so I'll keep ya'll informed as to what I learn. I'd like to have a versatile emulsion but as of right now, there isn't one that does the three main things as well as I want.
-
we never ran a dual cure before and I was blown away with the detail we held vs the SBQ. I did some reading up on it and it seems that SBQ should hold more detail than a dual cure? I am hoping the Kiwo is the way to go. I think I would like to put the same image on about 10 different screens coated with different emulsions and print them, see what happens. I know the exposure unit, times, film, all that jazz play a large roll in it too so what works for you may not work for me. Let us know what you find Al.
-
Nazdars list price is $68 does anybody actually pay list price?
Yep, guess I do? I don't order from Nazdar because their prices are always ridiculous.
Example:
Chromablue at Nazdar = $94.54 / gallon
Chromablue at Atlas = $62.10 / gallon
Guess I'm not big enough for a rep to stop by to give me better pricing. I've always found their online ordering system lacking as well. You can't track your order, no tracking numbers, so one day it just shows up. Didn't want this to turn into a rant about Nazdar, but damn it's almost like Alpha or Broder. The small time suckers who still order from them at per piece pricing thinking they can't get a better deal.
Hey it says Tubelite is a Kiwo dealer and I actually HAVE a Tubelite guy that visits me and gives me good pricing before I even order anything! I'll call and order a gallon from him.
Integrity Shirts: Sorry to hear that your ordering experience from Nazdar has fallen short of meeting your needs. I’d like to respond to a couple of the points that you raised and to offer my assistance to take the required actions to get things back on track. Please email me or PM me with your contact information and I will get right onto having these issues addressed.
Order Tracking (1): Nazdar SourceOne Policy and our everyday practice is to provide an email or fax confirmation with every order that is placed. This notification confirms price, shipping method, shipping status and other relevant information related to the processing of the order along with a link to an online Customer Service Satisfaction Survey. If you have not been receiving these order confirmations please let me know so I can investigate where the breakdown is.
Order Tracking (2): Nazdar SourceOne uses a shipping software package that is fully integrated with the shipment and package tracking systems utilized by UPS and FedEx. The Your Account section of the SourceOne web site (see www.SourceOneonline.com (http://www.SourceOneonline.com) or wwwSourceOne.Nazdar.com) provides our customers with the ability to track their package based on the shipping method used, and also to review prior product purchase and order history. If you are not familiar with this function on the Nazdar SourceOne website please let me know and I’ll have someone reach out to walk you through it.
Product Pricing: the pricing displayed by Nazdar SourceOne on the website and in our catalogs is always going to be Manufacturer Suggested List Price unless there is a specific promotion going on at that time. With that said we do offer Customer Value Added programs such as volume purchase discount, full case pricing, product bundling ricing programs, and the establishment of Open Account Terms. The best way to review the availability of these types of programs would be to request a Sales Representative to contact you. Please let me know if you would like me to set up this contact and I will gladly make it happen.
Once again my apologies if our service, responsiveness and product pricing have not met your needs and I welcome the opportunity to help get things back on track.
-
Integrity Shirts: Sorry to hear that your ordering experience from Nazdar has fallen short of meeting your needs. I’d like to respond to a couple of the points that you raised and to offer my assistance to take the required actions to get things back on track. Please email me or PM me with your contact information and I will get right onto having these issues addressed.
Order Tracking (1): Nazdar SourceOne Policy and our everyday practice is to provide an email or fax confirmation with every order that is placed. This notification confirms price, shipping method, shipping status and other relevant information related to the processing of the order along with a link to an online Customer Service Satisfaction Survey. If you have not been receiving these order confirmations please let me know so I can investigate where the breakdown is.
Order Tracking (2): Nazdar SourceOne uses a shipping software package that is fully integrated with the shipment and package tracking systems utilized by UPS and FedEx. The Your Account section of the SourceOne web site (see [url=http://www.SourceOneonline.com]www.SourceOneonline.com[/url] ([url]http://www.SourceOneonline.com[/url]) or wwwSourceOne.Nazdar.com) provides our customers with the ability to track their package based on the shipping method used, and also to review prior product purchase and order history. If you are not familiar with this function on the Nazdar SourceOne website please let me know and I’ll have someone reach out to walk you through it.
Product Pricing: the pricing displayed by Nazdar SourceOne on the website and in our catalogs is always going to be Manufacturer Suggested List Price unless there is a specific promotion going on at that time. With that said we do offer Customer Value Added programs such as volume purchase discount, full case pricing, product bundling ricing programs, and the establishment of Open Account Terms. The best way to review the availability of these types of programs would be to request a Sales Representative to contact you. Please let me know if you would like me to set up this contact and I will gladly make it happen.
Once again my apologies if our service, responsiveness and product pricing have not met your needs and I welcome the opportunity to help get things back on track.
No worries Peter. I'm actually mistaken in that your online ordering system does have tracking functionality. After further digging and clicking/expanding I did find it.
On pricing: Please understand the side of the online customer on pricing. I understand that before the ecommerce boom, printed materials and phone calls were the preferred sales methods. I also understand that quantity discounts for bulk sales are the bread and butter of your business. The internet, though, is here to help! By bypassing sales reps, phone calls, and printed material costs, you can have an overflow of web orders waiting to be picked and shipped solely by offering better online pricing.
I'd love to speak to a rep and receive better pricing via your online store. But I can't always call in an order and I prefer to place orders online where I can review everything visually before hitting submit. My time is limited and I do research prior to ordering on sites like this! 8)
-
I have also avoided Nazdar because of internet pricing. It is probably something they should look at unless they get alot of people ordering at list price, I sure wouldn't.
-
There are two chains of industrial supply stores I refuse to use because unless you have a big account you get first column pricing, which is inflated 40-100% from what is a fair price. I have no idea why some companies would do that. One fair price to all, with maybe a modest discount to huge customers would make much more sense.
The first time a customer finds out he over paid, they're likely gone for good.
-
Nazdar has always taken care of us. We do deal directly with our sales rep. I do keep them honest by price checking, something that needs to be done reguardless of who and how long you deal with a vendor. The service has always been top notch and always a phone call away for technical help which adds to the value
-
I have only had 1 rep visit my shop in the past year and he gave me the best pricing, free delivery and great service out of the gate and I am small time. I would like the best price out the gate otherwise I'll find someone else to give it to me.
-
if you build a relationship with your Nazdar rep, they can help you. They have far more resources than anyone else and have always been good to me. Thanks Nazdar.
-
I have only had 1 rep visit my shop in the past year and he gave me the best pricing, free delivery and great service out of the gate and I am small time. I would like the best price out the gate otherwise I'll find someone else to give it to me.
Yep, I got a bad taste in my mouth right now because of this exact same issue with another large manufacture. Give me the best price out of the gate, that's all I ask.
-
It's a little funny, but a fact of life. We all want "the best price out the gate", yet, when we are selling, are very concerned with "leaving money on the table".
-
We run our business with us giving the customer the best service, best quality and best price out the gate. I expect other vendors to do the same. Maybe that is the wrong way to run but I like to be fair and treat people right from the start whether they are ordering 1 shirt or a thousand.
-
I was merely pointing out that it is general business behavior to buy as low as we can, and sell as high as our market will bear.
Perhaps you not in particular as you have even often been able to lowball prices compared here, but very often we see folks quite understandably asking if perhaps they did indeed leave money on the table.
I know that I have to tread lightly around Gilly, but hopefully not you too. ??? ;D
This is going far past emulsion comparisons, but did at least draw Peter out. That can only benefit all involved.
-
I disagree Frog.
I always put my best foot forward. Could I do the shirt for less? Sure, but could they sell you the product for less as well? Yep.
I don't give them a price that they have to haggle me down from, I give them a fair price right out of the gate. Doesn't do me much good to price myself so high they walk away with sticker shock and go down the road to get quoted like 20% less, even if the quality of service isn't quite AS good.
-
There are 2 ways to approach pricing and what I am trying to do is make the process to purchasing screen printed apparel as easy as possible for our customers. I have had alot of customers come in and having been to other larger companies in our town say that we are so easy to work with and the large companies made them feel like they were wasting their time by gracing their front doors with potential business. Should I charge more for our service? Yes we probably should and actually have albeit slightly but we will continue to raise pricing until we get some complaints and then maybe back off.
-
Well, as I said, this is going far astray from emulsions, and I'm not going to help keep it going that way any more, especially here.
On a personal note, my somewhat pink hippie hat is off to anyone who tries to sell as low as possible.
-
I like CCI WR25 but with me 2/2 coating my little 240 watt uv exp unit its taking me 8-10 minutes to fully burn a screen.
-
You should have bought Peter's 3140... Snooze, you lose sucka!
-
Is nobody running Autotype emulsions? I run Plus 8000 for all my needs, plastisol, water based, solvent and 2 part epoxy inks, even pad prink inks if that's what I need, you just need to load them up with retarder.
It seems Autotype and Murakami are the two most popular emulsions up here.
-
You should have bought Peter's 3140... Snooze, you lose sucka!
I thought about it but I need to be careful with the spending
I'm on the expansion plan. May go Amergraph anyway.
-
I like CCI WR25 but with me 2/2 coating my little 240 watt uv exp unit its taking me 8-10 minutes to fully burn a screen.
We were using Saati ChemTextile PV, recently started using Ulano Orange for most of out printing. Both burn pretty fast even on an the fluorescent tube type exposure unit and inexpensive. Might want to give the Orange a try to get exposures below 2 min.
Maybe it's just a rumor but I read somewhere Amergraph had gone out of business or recently discontinued their units.
-
I believe that the the reports of Amerigraph (http://www.amergraph.com/products/category/Screenprinting_Exposure_Equipment.aspx)'s death were premature as discussed here last month (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3484.0.html#lastPost)
-
It's a little funny, but a fact of life. We all want "the best price out the gate", yet, when we are selling, are very concerned with "leaving money on the table".
Agreed. Buy low, sell high.
OR
Buy low, sell reasonable to friends, sell high to strangers.
If you don't order enough product per month, do you get bumped OFF that column of pricing? Because I have never been bumped DOWN once given priority pricing. Which begs the question, why does it exist?
If I have a good repeat customer who regularly orders 100 tees and wants to place an order for 12, I give them the 12 piece price, simple as that. You're still my good customer, but it costs more to make 12 shirts. If it costs more to pick and ship one gallon of emulsion vs four, charge more. 30% more? I will keep shopping.
If in the back of your mind you're saying, "well if he wants it that cheap he can just order it from ____, we don't need his business." That's fine too. I have customers that call in and ask for a quote and tell me they aren't going to use me because they found pricing on the internet that is cheaper. I'm okay with that! I don't prioritize online sales or have an online store :)
Back on topic. I'm going to switch back to aquasol for now as I'm happy with it and also happy with the murakami hardener for water-based printing. Which only leaves the high end resolution printing where a dual cure comes in handy. I'm using Murakami photocure pro and I'm ok with it, still haven't fully decided if it's giving me better results than regular aquasol though.
-
Is nobody running Autotype emulsions? I run Plus 8000 for all my needs, plastisol, water based, solvent and 2 part epoxy inks, even pad prink inks if that's what I need, you just need to load them up with retarder.
It seems Autotype and Murakami are the two most popular emulsions up here.
I have some 8000 and 2000 samples here to try, the 2k is for plastisol only, I think I tried the 8k once before, don't remember why we never used it. I am looking for many things in emulsion, cost vs local availability vs detail vs WB, Discharge and plastisol, vs reclaim vs exposure time and finally smell. . .sounds stupid, but like mentioned before, some of these emulsions smell terrible, I remember QX-1 making me dizzy. . .