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screen printing => 4 Color and Simulated Process Printing => Topic started by: tonypep on April 29, 2021, 06:29:48 PM
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Split from Dans post on sim process and its apparent? decline. As we know all shops are different. Shops dedicated to sim process as a daily thing well....they usually share a few traits. 14 plus print heads, large amounts of pantone colors premixed, dedicated ink staff, longer runs, in house seps just to name a few. This does not suit everyones biz model.
Shops that sporatically need full color work done may approach this as true process application (once the UB secrets have been discovered) may approach many if not most full color work in this manner using only six screens, using the same subassembly components (inks squeegees etc.)
Pros: Efficiency (process inks are a consumable rather that the more complicated consumable/subassembly procedure of mixing pantones ie time and labor) Also, while most sim pro seps require 10 or more screens, when done correctly, a true process sep on darks will usually require 6. Therefore screen and setup costs are greatly reduced. I utiliized this thought process when developing a clothing line for a watercolor artist on a budget. Once the separator learns how to manipulate the curves and adjust for the "footprint" of the shop (princeably with regards to dot gain) and had that under reasonable control (without confusion...pun intended) we would gang up all her orders and; leaving squeegees/floodbars in, switch out to the new job pre-registered screens in amazing time. Again, perhaps not a typical biz model, but achievable for those to whom it may apply, and perhaps to some who may be thinking towards these lines.
Cons: Most notably, out of gamut colors that can be difficult to reproduce in CMYK if not impossible (florescents and neons for example).
Also, isolating memory colors such as fleshtones can be a challenge in CMYK.
Lastly, one can certainly argue (myself included) that sim pro gives one quite a bit more control however (and sadly) in todays Amazon culture of "good and right away" tends to win over "give me time and money and it will not be good....it will be great"
This Dinosaur is retiring to his lair however if anyone wants me to expand on this just let me know.
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I can rarely recall a design that comes through us that would be logically best printed 4 color process. So we simply don't even consider it. We've probably done it 2 times in history or our shop.
We never get specific requests for it either.
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I've been interested in 4 color process printing, and have dabbled in it for a while, however the results are always subpar to what we could do with simulated color process.
I wanted to work on a you get what you pay for model that utilized the virus 4 color process system, however virus is difficult to get, always changing distributors, and difficult to work with. Virus does the seps for you and you used their ink to keep the model more simple, but it still takes 6-7 screens so may as well just do 10 and do sim process if the customer can bare the cost.
Virus was like $75 for the separation, and then 'you get what you get' as the client would have the option between 4 color process with the understanding that the results may not be as brilliant.
Sim process is $20 per color for separations (typically 8-10 colors), then all applicable print cost, screen setups, so typically before we touch a garment it's $500 in setup.
We outsource all separations besides grayscale (ultraseps), use a variety of people. We have used Separo in the past but again you get what you pay for and paying for professional separations is worth the cost and can be marked up to the customer anyhow.
Did a couple projects with the Virus, some turned out great, others not as well, so it was too hit or miss and even when "you get what you pay for", we can't be putting out poor quality work so it never really panned out long term.
Overall I think with hybrid printing simulated color process and 4 color process is going to go away, but also the demand for that style of printing is out of fashion right now in most cases, which is why it's hard to invest ~500k on a press for hybrid and the machine when the demand isn't currently really there for us.
Long story short, no to 4 color process for me.
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Over the years we've experimented with doing 4 color process, to see if it was viable. We always just scrapped it, and moved to sim process. Gave us much better, cleaner, and controllable results.
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Though the standard multi color work is our meat and potatoes, we tend to do sim process with no more than 8 colors, since we have a 10 color press and need one if not two flashes. We've done a decent amount of 4 color process on whites and darks, with good results that got us paid and had the customers happy. Of course, there is always something that could be better, but we don't bring that up if the customer doesn't.
Steve
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I think the 4 color process is (and economical option). When you are a screen print shop and not a DTG or DTF or DS shop, and must screen print it, (and the customer is only ordering 100 shirts with a full color image, This is a good option. You explain the areas where it may lack. You educate them as much as you can invest into that.
Now, I’ll say, it does take some testing and some getting used to, but it’s par for the course here for us, since we do a lot of smaller quantity (multi color) images...and our DTG’s are not running (white heads clogged and have the owner has no desire to get them fixed). So we do a good bit of it ...and it looks good. Now, does it look GREAT? I’d say no, not compared to some popping 8-10-12 car sim process color job. But it works for some jobs. I haven’t had a customer complain as of yet. Now, (if the larger press was also up and running at this time) there are many jobs that I’d just run as sim process and never consider 4 clr process, but it is our choice”to run 4 clr process. Not the customers. I don’t have anyone come in and ask for 4 clr process...but I have many come in and say "I want this on our shirts". Just did one Friday. 4 clr process on a variety of shirt colors It was 65 shirts.
At JNJ, Tony P, Will Booth and I did a 4 clr process and sim process test....of a fishing tournament tee. We were doing it as a 8 clr sim process anways, on white and colored tees with a base...and compared. Actually, the customer would have never known we only used 4 clr process (if we ran it) in 4 clr process with a base. Both were (as vibrant) and would pass the smell test. The art sort of allowed for it to be 4 clr process. The art was vibrant...and the colors were able to be achieved in cmyk. It was good to know we could, but we didn’t bother. I just happened to come across that in my old photo’s and had a hard time seeing which of the two was the real 4 clr process.
The trick with 4 color process (on a base) is the ink color control over the base...and saturation where needed. You need the right kind of dot gain...penetration. This sort of goes against what you normally hear about printing and sim process (printing the sim process inks on top of the shirt for a soft hand). I don’t use a solid white base like many think you need for cmyk on darks. In fact, it’s very close to what you might see in a regular sim process base...with some minor modifications.
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That is correct about the base Dan of course. As mentioned we do this for most of our full color preprint lines that are hand painted/illustrated with the sep process in mind. Simply can't get the range of color needed in most cases for the dogs, ducks, turkeys and fish! Its rare but if a spot color is needed we'll throw that in the mix. These prints are constantly re-produced to replenish stock. So once again we see how different we all are and what works for some will therefore not be the best options for others
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This is a hiday job I printed In 4cp on white base this year. 700 plus. I have done this on 1000 plus also.
BB4WA on 50pcs. off a sticker.
Shane(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210504/22c694664597074c7706097b97c0cf38.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210504/af131cd3b53f44fab8fa212b81c6f1ef.jpg)
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That’s one way to get’r done. Those orders probably would be a good candidate for the DTF now too. Makes good sense.
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If i had it, yes. doing these with 8/10 press.
Shane
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We don't do a ton of 4c process but what we have done on dark shirts looks good at least to me and customer are happy....just a base white and the process inks which are triple blend inks. My biggest problem at one time doing 4c process I didn't trust what I saw on screen and would increase the colors/brightness as my image would look washed out, but once I just went with the washed out look, the seps looked great and printed very nice, the other way the print got dark very quick causes us to stop and clean the screens or reburn higher mesh counts. My normal mesh is 230 and maybe 280's color and my white 180.
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I have many quite good examples of what we are doing with this but need to chk if its OK to post pics stay tuned
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the other big item how big of press you are running and if clients are willing to pay for it.
Shane
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We don't do a ton of 4c process but what we have done on dark shirts looks good at least to me and customer are happy....just a base white and the process inks which are triple blend inks. My biggest problem at one time doing 4c process I didn't trust what I saw on screen and would increase the colors/brightness as my image would look washed out, but once I just went with the washed out look, the seps looked great and printed very nice, the other way the print got dark very quick causes us to stop and clean the screens or reburn higher mesh counts. My normal mesh is 230 and maybe 280's color and my white 180.
Did you do this seps or did I do that one for you? Looks familiar BUT, either way, those flesh tones look great! People usually say that flesh tones are the hardest in cmyk, (especially black people) because of the heavy content of color in each cmyk sep. Can go south very quickly with too much ink down. but I don’t ever see a problem with those in particular. Purples are hard.
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Although no base needed, this was on 50 White youth tees. Who gets those orders anymore?
65lpi (using multiple angles) and I don’t normally do that but wanted to play with he angles again to find the right angles that did not provide moire. Still, on the yellow screen, I used a stochastic (square) dot as that angle would be at 0 and would be a problem angle. Therefore, no angle at all on the yellow.
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Dan are you and customer happy with it? the florescent colors not vibrant to me.
Shane
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A, it’s a dark photo. Does not represent the true color... There are no good lights in this shop, and it’s a phone pic, but the original that you are seeing on screen here is in RGB and in the computer, the original rgb work file is not as vibrant as you see here. For example, there are no real hot pinks or neon yellow of any sort. It’s all to be every watercolor-ish.
B, Yea, it was 4 clr process on 50 shirts, so I don’t spend a lot of time on them. In fact, here at this shop, out of maybe 600 separations or so, since I’ve been here, I’ve only ever revised ONE sep job pertaining to seps.
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A, it’s a dark photo. Does not represent the true color... There are no good lights in this shop, and it’s a phone pic, but the original that you are seeing on screen here is in RGB and in the computer, the original rgb work file is not as vibrant as you see here. For example, there are no real hot pinks or neon yellow of any sort. It’s all to be every watercolor-ish.
B, Yea, it was 4 clr process on 50 shirts, so I don’t spend a lot of time on them. In fact, here at this shop, out of maybe 600 separations or so, since I’ve been here, I’ve only ever revised ONE sep job pertaining to seps.
ok I wandere. thx
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We don't do a ton of 4c process but what we have done on dark shirts looks good at least to me and customer are happy....just a base white and the process inks which are triple blend inks. My biggest problem at one time doing 4c process I didn't trust what I saw on screen and would increase the colors/brightness as my image would look washed out, but once I just went with the washed out look, the seps looked great and printed very nice, the other way the print got dark very quick causes us to stop and clean the screens or reburn higher mesh counts. My normal mesh is 230 and maybe 280's color and my white 180.
Did you do this seps or did I do that one for you? Looks familiar BUT, either way, those flesh tones look great! People usually say that flesh tones are the hardest in cmyk, (especially black people) because of the heavy content of color in each cmyk sep. Can go south very quickly with too much ink down. but I don’t ever see a problem with those in particular. Purples are hard.
Nope I did those seps, but I use your advice, I remember us talking about these seps, I was having problems with the yellow sep
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We did these a couple days ago and just getting around to posting on this for cmyk on darks. One example (on darks). We do this a good bit. About once a week maybe if not more. It’s a little off reg with some base peaking out. Sometimes, it doesn’t matter how much you tell them, they slip an order in that’s off reg. This is a new printer just getting used to us. He’s got some bad habits from his last shop and he’s never printed on an auto. The last shop seems they would let most anything go. It’s a new world for him here. Higher mesh, different colors on bases, we are not your “normal” shop. LOL. Nice guy tho and he is teachable. Just that habit part we have to get him out of.
Colored pencil sketch art style. Art was provided. The art was done by Don Howard. He’s a pretty popular caricature and mural artist here in town and oddly enough, he had worked at Disney for many years. We chat about that a lot.
Oh, and that’s not a mistake to have the same guy in there twice. They are twin brothers. LOL.
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Nice!
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