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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: im_mcguire on August 20, 2018, 12:47:08 PM
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Hey guys.
So Ive printed this same shirt for my client for the last 4 years. Its a huge open are of white, with 3 spot colors on top.
They now want to run discharge.
I called my rep up, and he told me to use Rutland discharge white plus as a base, and print plastisol on top.
Has anyone here ran that before? All of the research ive learned, was to pigment your discharge base with white, and flash and run your colors on top of that.
Any help here would be recommended.
Thanks!!!
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someone smarter than me will surely chime in, but i don't think you can use that as a base.
We've always mixed our base as 80% base, 20% white. As White discharge doesn't usually provide enough of a surface for the plastisol to latch onto, resulting in poor adhesion...but before anyone else says it, you should test it?
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We've tested it, years ago at least. It would be pretty nice to print one white that acts as ub and
top at once. Unfortunately it is not to be.
Not only will top colors not adhere, you'll get terrible buildup of the white on successive screens.
The less white you can use in your base the better. For %97 of discharge underbase work we use
straight CCI Premium D-base. Add D-white to %20 for iffy fabrics or neony top colors.
Or, if you like, CCI makes a discharge underbase product that is the 80/20 mix (as far as I can tell)
described above.
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If you follow what your rep says, your inks will fall off.
Like Eric said, you need to base down your discharge base if you want to do discharge + plastisol.
I would do it as a 5 color
Discharge Base (just pure base for best adhesion)
Could print discharge white here
Flash
3 Top Colors
Flash
Discharge White if you didn't do it earlier.
Some people say they get away without flashing doing discharge base, but I'm not a believer.
Also cure the shirt like 4 times as long as you really want to evaporate all the discharge, and with it covered with plastisol it takes more heat and time to do so.
And always, wash test.
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Zane, I was okay till the "Discharge White if you didn't do it earlier." part.
I'm only asking (ignorant) but why a discharge white at that point on top of the plastisol?
Unless all the plastisol was knocked out of that screen and the discharge white is only falling on the discharge base?
I'm sure I'm missing something.
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I think he means printing the white, directly onto the garment. No base, no plastisol, and allowing for the DC to do what it does.
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I think Ill go the route and use the tested method of CCI D Base 80% and 20% white.
My sales rep said he has a lot of people who do it with the Rutland White plus, but Im not at a point where I need to try something out.
Ill post my print once we are finished.
Thanks all!
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I think he means printing the white, directly onto the garment. No base, no plastisol, and allowing for the DC to do what it does.
I was questioning the use of Discharge white as possibly 5th color on top with a Discharge Base print. I'm familiar with using Discharge White straight on substrate. I guess it all depends on what mcguire is printing that needs a white screen.
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I think he means printing the white, directly onto the garment. No base, no plastisol, and allowing for the DC to do what it does.
Correct, because your 80/20 mix will only get a super dull white if you even call it that.
So to save a flash, without seeing your design, you could go,
1 ) Discharge Base (or 80/20)
2 ) Discharge White (premixed white, we use Matsui Super 75)
Flash - This doesn't need to fully discharge, it may look dull on press but should be good at end of dryer. Just enough so that it isn't lifting up on the next stations, and leave lots of room for cool downs.
3 ) Color
4 ) Color
5 ) Color
Where the discharge white is only the "Spot White" or 100% white areas.
Or alternatively with more flashes,
1 ) Discharge Base (or 80/20)
Flash - This doesn't need to fully discharge, it may look dull on press but should be good at end of dryer.
2 ) Color
3 ) Color
4 ) Color
Flash
5 ) Discharge White (premixed white, we use Matsui Super 75)
Trust me you don't want to use straight pre-mix white, by experience the ink falls of the shirt. Which has me thinking you could use for a cool special effect for a 1 wash vintage look.
Our ink reps like to say that water base doesn't dry in the screen. I would love to find a place where this is the case :)
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This is the design we are printing.
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I would print this like so
1 ) Discharge Base (or 80/20) Choked back and only basing Navy / Light Blue / Red - 140 Mesh Double Pull
2 ) Discharge White (premixed white, we use Matsui Super 75) - 140 Mesh Double Pull
Flash - This doesn't need to fully discharge
3 ) Navy - 195 Mesh
4 ) Light Blue - 195 Mesh
5 ) Red - 195 Mesh
On 100% Cotton Garments
We don't use S-Mesh, and I think people on this forum state they use way higher meshes than necessary, or their prints are lacking opacity. You can take a 110, and use a hard squeegee, steep angle, fast stroke, light pressure, and get similar results to printing through 280 mesh, but you can't go the other way as easily.
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ok why not just run straight up discharge on the entire design?
navy-200
red- 200
lt blue -200
white- 160
no flashes
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Rick,
If someone does not have all the colors in Discharge, could Plasticharge Color mixes and Discharge White last work?
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ok why not just run straight up discharge on the entire design?
navy-200
red- 200
lt blue -200
white- 160
no flashes
We dont have a complete mixing kit for the PMS colors used. Also Im going into discharge wiith baby steps. UB first with plastisol top, and then ill start plying with all discharge...
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Rick,
If someone does not have all the colors in Discharge, could Plasticharge Color mixes and Discharge White last work?
We don't do a lot, but we do use Union's Discharge clear base, add the 20% white, flash it, and print the top colors in plastisol with a 230 mesh. The only time it failed was because of too much white pigment in the base, of which I was made aware by the fine printers here who use it all the time...
Steve
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If someone does not have all the colors in Discharge, could Plasticharge Color mixes and Discharge White last work?
This would work fine as well. And I prefer water base discharge over pre-mix plasticharge white but it's been about 8 years since I've used plasticharge so maybe the white has improved?
I used to do this all the time with plasticharge as it is a great product in my opinion if your customers aren't super picky about colors being "perfect". We don't use plasticharge here since we don't have high opacity ink, but I think it is a great product that maybe we should look at again since we do Mixopaque now after printing for Custom Ink.
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If someone does not have all the colors in Discharge, could Plasticharge Color mixes and Discharge White last work?
This would work fine as well. And I prefer water base discharge over pre-mix plasticharge white but it's been about 8 years since I've used plasticharge so maybe the white has improved?
I used to do this all the time with plasticharge as it is a great product in my opinion if your customers aren't super picky about colors being "perfect". We don't use plasticharge here since we don't have high opacity ink, but I think it is a great product that maybe we should look at again since we do Mixopaque now after printing for Custom Ink.
Reason I had asked was I had printed a small all Plastisol job on Black Gildans. The print was 2 colors with a White halftone underbase and two top colors (Union Ultrasoft inks). In order to get a decent print (opacity), it took too many passes and came out heavier than I liked, but was passable. I had the same 2 colors in Union Maxopake. After the job was done, I mixed them up (60% Maxopake Ink, 40% Ryocharge, 4% activator by weight) and printed with NO underbase on the same Black shirts. I thought they came out great....AND...were very soft after washing.
I have not done a lot of this (Plasticharge/Ryocharge), but wanted somebody's opinion as to how that would fare going up against straight discharge inks printing.
I feel Plasticharge is a very viable solution.....as long as the ink has a heavy Pigment load. I had tried, unsuccessfully, to use Union Ultrasoft with the Ryocharge and the colors were too muted to be used, not enough Pigment.
I've not gotten into waterbase yet.
Thanks for the reply.
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I have not done a lot of this (Plasticharge/Ryocharge), but wanted somebody's opinion as to how that would fare going up against straight discharge inks printing.
A good plasticharge print is indistinguishable from a water base discharge print in my opinion after washing both in my opinion. I prefer less than 50/50 like you said below so the colors pop a bit more and don't mute out as much.
Also, it is cheaper than doing plastisol + underbase as long as you don't mix way more than you need, you can bill it the same if you had printed an under base and make more money. And I'm pretty sure it is cheaper than water base discharge as well.
Save yourself a world of hurt, and get good at printing plasticharge :) We don't use it at our shop, but it is historical, and not because it isn't a great product.
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Hi all....
A while back I bought out someone's ink when they went out of business and it included a couple of quarts of plasticharge and about 3 quarts of discharge base. I've been wanting to try it, and this discussion has got me ready to try..
Couple of questions:
CCI Discharge base + Wilfex Rio top = good combination?
or
40% Ryonet plasticharge mixed with 60% Wilflex Rio?
Pros and cons of the above?
I do have quite a bit of Union Ultrasoft and Maxopake, but I like the low cure properties of the Rio and am about to pull the trigger on the gallon kit of that. I know the discharge/plasticharge aspect will negate the low cure aspect, but the softness will be worth it on the real dark shirts or picky customers. I have a 3609 dryer with forced air, so water base and discharge is no problem.
Thanks for any comments!
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Hi all....
A while back I bought out someone's ink when they went out of business and it included a couple of quarts of plasticharge and about 3 quarts of discharge base. I've been wanting to try it, and this discussion has got me ready to try..
Couple of questions:
CCI Discharge base + Wilfex Rio top = good combination?
or
40% Ryonet plasticharge mixed with 60% Wilflex Rio?
Pros and cons of the above?
I do have quite a bit of Union Ultrasoft and Maxopake, but I like the low cure properties of the Rio and am about to pull the trigger on the gallon kit of that. I know the discharge/plasticharge aspect will negate the low cure aspect, but the softness will be worth it on the real dark shirts or picky customers. I have a 3609 dryer with forced air, so water base and discharge is no problem.
Thanks for any comments!
I can only speak on the Union products.
No to Ultrasoft - it does not have enough of a pigment load.
Yes to Maxopake. The percentages match to my post but only for Maxopake.
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ok why not just run straight up discharge on the entire design?
navy-200
red- 200
lt blue -200
white- 160
no flashes
We dont have a complete mixing kit for the PMS colors used. Also Im going into discharge wiith baby steps. UB first with plastisol top, and then ill start plying with all discharge...
Ijust feel your going to have more issues with the DCbase , flashing and curing than all DC.