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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on July 03, 2011, 05:36:30 PM
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I posted this in another forum and just want to post it here to get as much info as possible.
Well if the bank allows I will be a new auto owner in 4-6 weeks. I have heard that I will have to learn to print all over again so what should I expect.
Different mesh counts?
Printing wet on wet?
Squeegee pressure?
How about ink?
Should I change emulsion? I use a diazo dual cure
Printing on dark shirts?
What would be a good mix of mesh counts since I would have to buy new 23x31 frames? Mainly spot colors on light shirts. And of course the white ink on black.
Right now I like using 230s on light shirts and depending on design 86-156 on darks printing manually
I am sure there are more questions but I cant think of them right now.
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If you have enough money, space and electrical capacity.... you're good to go.
There's a learning curve to auto printing... don't let that stop you. You'll learn as you go.
Generally speaking, you can use a higher mesh counts and there's no need to stop using duel cure emulsion.
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'first thought, and most with auto's will agree, is that 6/8 is going to be too small. You will outgrow it pretty soon. On an auto, flash uses up a head and in some cases the head after it is used as a cooldown station. So on dark garments, you might print an underbase (1), flash (2), cooldown (3) and you have three colors left. On an auto the second hit of white is mostly on a separate screen so you don't have to spin it around twice. This now leaves you with only two useful colors. Just something to think about . . .
few more thoughts . . . 99% of the work gets printed wet on wet. It is not a big deal once you have it down, but it does take some time to get used to it. Just like many others with a manual only experience (very limited at that) I wanted to print everything with 110's and 160's. On the white garments it is not a big deal as the extra ink gets absorbed by the cotton, but on an underbase this will cause the ink to smear. We use 305's for any color going on the underbase and are OK with 5-6 colors wet on wet.
as far as the screens, go for the 230's and 305's. Get few lower counts for a good measure, but your workhorse should be the 230. Use them for underbase and colors on the light shirts. 50/50's with white ink I still print with 110's. Heavy bleeders go on 160's pp/f/pp. There are occasions where we can get a decent white with one screen (thin art or lighter color shirt) and we'll use the lower mesh counts (with extra coat to get thicker stencil). While it makes sense, once you start printing on an auto, you'll keep chasing the thinner threads and forget that there is a time and place for the low count stuff. Thanx to Alan, we are fully utilizing those now.
You should strive to hit everything only once. Two hits reduces your production output. That means two white screens to print white on darks, but the time saved on everything but the shortest runs is worth it.
Pick a white that has all the characteristics you are looking for and then learn how to make it work on your auto. After you spend some time with it, and have a decent understanding of what it's doing, start testing few others.
The extra equipment will cost you dearly! From what other ppl are saying, $6k-$8k is what most ppl spend on a compressor, new electric and air lines and other misc equipment needed. Make sure you budget that in. After all is said an done, you should still have money in the bank to make first few payments.
sorry for the long rant . . . there is more, but I'll let somebody else chime in too!
pierre
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Learn like I did if you mess up one shirt on an auto you just bet theres 8 more, 10 ,12 or how ever many station you have coming round. Allways do a test print first on one shirt before you start a run, I know there are tons of people that have 6/8 autos and yep its a pain in the butt if you try and run 6 colors might as well do on a manual. I have 7/8 and run six colors and yep I fight with it and its slow on dark shirts unless the art sep just right. I,m with everyone else even if you only print 4 colors you still could use an 8 color machine 10 station.
Darryl
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You should strive to hit everything only once. Two hits reduces your production output. That means two white screens to print white on darks, but the time saved on everything but the shortest runs is worth it.
I don't want to de-rail to much here but this is the problem with US based production models. We are told we have to hit it once and move on.. go abroad and down south and it's not multiple hits, it's multiple high mesh screens of the same color and they flash everything so they don't get ink buildup. The 1-hit-wonder Americans are doing more to beat our selves in the head with a single screen than to think it through and simply add a screen. where do you think all the mid 90-s 12-16 color challengers went.. mexico. where are all the alpha 8's.. china
The biggest goal of a new auto is to get the best print you can no matter how long it takes.
When you go from a manual to a small auto, you still print the same, just raise your mesh counts. If your manual shop has been flashing between colors, using all low mesh screens then do the same thing in the beginning until you get comfortable and begin to understand what the machine can and can't do for you as you grow into it.
The best tip that will help with printing techniques.. use only as much squeegee pressure to print as you need. It's very easy to crank up the squeegee pressure on an auto making your prints start to look worse than when you printed by hand.
Good luck and congrats on the auto!!
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You should strive to hit everything only once. Two hits reduces your production output. That means two white screens to print white on darks, but the time saved on everything but the shortest runs is worth it.
I don't want to de-rail to much here but this is the problem with US based production models. We are told we have to hit it once and move on.. go abroad and down south and it's not multiple hits, it's multiple high mesh screens of the same color and they flash everything so they don't get ink buildup. The 1-hit-wonder Americans are doing more to beat our selves in the head with a single screen than to think it through and simply add a screen. where do you think all the mid 90-s 12-16 color challengers went.. mexico. where are all the alpha 8's.. china
The biggest goal of a new auto is to get the best print you can no matter how long it takes.
When you go from a manual to a small auto, you still print the same, just raise your mesh counts. If your manual shop has been flashing between colors, using all low mesh screens then do the same thing in the beginning until you get comfortable and begin to understand what the machine can and can't do for you as you grow into it.
The best tip that will help with printing techniques.. use only as much squeegee pressure to print as you need. It's very easy to crank up the squeegee pressure on an auto making your prints start to look worse than when you printed by hand.
Good luck and congrats on the auto!!
agreed for the most part. The point was to print with one hit when possible which will not always be the case. It will depend on many parameters, art, inks, press and so on.
The labor in china and mexico is considerably cheaper and the multiple hits with the same screen are easier to pay for than here. Two hits reduces the production by 30% in my case and if I can get away from it I do.
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'first thought, and most with auto's will agree, is that 6/8 is going to be too small. You will outgrow it pretty soon. On an auto, flash uses up a head and in some cases the head after it is used as a cooldown station. So on dark garments, you might print an underbase (1), flash (2), cooldown (3) and you have three colors left. On an auto the second hit of white is mostly on a separate screen so you don't have to spin it around twice. This now leaves you with only two useful colors. Just something to think about . . .
pierre
I'll offer an opposing viewpoint on the number of print stations you need.
If you know your market... and it's all 1,2,3 color work, a 6 color press is fine.
I choose to only do the jobs I can print with a 5x6 Titan.
I'm not able to compete with a shop that has a 10 color press (and employees working for $15/hr).
Anything more complex (colorwise) can be contracted out.
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All good stuff guys.
I have 100 amp service
Single Phase I think. My electrician will be coming by this week to evaluate
Compressor-30 Amp
Flash- 25 Amp
Dryer- 25 Amp
I could save amps on the compressor but I think this would be good for a small shop http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/chicago-pneumatic-quiet-rotary-screw-50hp-air-compessor-refrigerated-dryer-qrs50-hpd-p-11837.aspx (http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/chicago-pneumatic-quiet-rotary-screw-50hp-air-compessor-refrigerated-dryer-qrs50-hpd-p-11837.aspx)
I really need a bigger dryer but I am limited on electrical. Maybe I can move to a bigger shop next year.
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Northland I agree with you, get what you need and can afford, but with that said if we all could buy what our eyes see, we would all have way more equipment than we need to be a success in the print world. I for one would love a bigger dryer, press and exposure unit and some of the tightness sweet butt screens I could buy oh yea a very very fast computer.
Darryl
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What do you think of the compressor i linked? I am thinking maybe going to a smaller compressor to save on amps and getting a slightly bigger dryer.
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That's a really nice compressor... but get your press first and size the air-comp. to it.
A servo index is a great feature to have... if you go that route you can get by with a smaller compressor.
How much floor space do you have ?
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That's a really nice compressor... but get your press first and size the air-comp. to it.
A servo index is a great feature to have... if you go that route you can get by with a smaller compressor.
How much floor space do you have ?
The press will be a 6/8 Anatol Horizon all air. Specs say 21cfm but thats at full bore. I will never run it that fast and may never run it fully loaded.
My shop is 20 wide and 40 long.
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@ Prosperi-Tees are you getting the 6/8 mini or full horizon? I got the 7/8 mini and my space is tight but with the front load screen I,m like 21 to 23 inches from one wall and have plenty of room to work in, thats the beauty of having a press like the Mini Horizon. I have a load and unload station which works fine with me as I,m the only one that rins the press...hey don't be surprised when you have to load that bad boy up.
Darryl
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I'd like to weigh in on the subject of hitting everything once. I cannot stand walking out back now and seeing my guy double stroke something that we have always single stroked, but I understand John's thought on it as well. I'll just keep it simple and say that you shouldn't be double stroking anything that you could single stroke if you had proper control over the other processes. What I've been trying to teach my guys is why do more work or work harder if you don't have to? Why print with 35psi on the printhead when 25psi will do? You're making the press work harder than it should, and double stroking something that you could have looking just as good or better with one stroke is such a waste of time and ink, wear and tear on the press and no telling how many other issues arise when double stroking something. We've double stroked things on rare occasions, but if we've made a mistake on a mesh count selection and have to double stroke something I'll sure as hell let the guys know we don't work like that and to not make the same mistake again. I understand that sometimes you just have to double stroke something, you had to use a high mesh due to the artwork, seps aren't correct and you need more magenta for that process job to look right, or the ink you have to use is dictating things as well, but we do our best to keep from doing it
I have lot's of other thoughts on what Pierre said earlier about taking advantage of all of the different mesh counts available to you. The trend these days is 230's and 305's, and we've joined in on that to a degree, but the old 110 still gets used here a lot. Many of our designs are big white prints on dark shirts and I've spent years trying to make them look good with different mesh counts and I've spent many hours trying to make a pfp on a 230 look good, and it just doesn't work for me for most of our designs. Double stroking a 230 is going to put down a very similar ink deposit (eom, artwork, tension, etc. can change that of course) than single stroking a 137, so we opt to stay low on many designs that need a high opacity look. My main goal is to shear the ink on top of the shirt, and the higher you go on mesh count, the more you will struggle to get that perfect ink shear and end up putting more ink into the shirt and then you're fighting a battle you don't need to fight.
Sorry for the rant OP but that is just my take on a very small part of what you're going to be dealing with in the near future. And as you can see, there are tons of different ways to get this job done, and many differing thoughts on the tools to use.
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If we double stroke, we didn't do something right. Can't think of the last time we had to actually...most of the reason for double stroking is mesh selection....at least in my shop.
I have walked into a few manual shops watching them double stroke through a 230 mesh screen to get proper coverage, and after it is said and done, they could have saved time and ink by adding a little soft base to the color and lowered the mesh to 200. The results would be a softer print and less effort.
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Ink plays a really big part creamy inks print very good thru just about any mesh Oh and sharp blades don't hurt. On the single stroke it really helps on wet on wet printing of the ink build up on the back of the screens.
Darryl
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My press will be a full size Horizon.
I am just going to take it slow and practice.
I really will need to address my dryer issue. I was thinking with space and electrical issues the Vastex Econored I 54" would be a good fit as the specs say 30Amps http://www.vastex.com/products/InfraredDryers/ECI.php (http://www.vastex.com/products/InfraredDryers/ECI.php)
If I do that I will probably need to downgrade the compressor from the used rotary screw to a 5hp single stage compressor.
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If I do that I will probably need to downgrade the compressor from the used rotary screw to a 5hp single stage compressor.
I can't recomend a single stage air compressor.... it won't hold up to long term usage.
An all air machine really needs a two stage compressor.
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If I do that I will probably need to downgrade the compressor from the used rotary screw to a 5hp single stage compressor.
I can't reccomend a single stage air compressor.... it won't hold up to long term usage.
An all air machine really needs a two stage compressor.
A two stage with chiller would be upwards of 3K. The used rotary is 2K with dryer. Its just hard trying to balance everything with limited electrical.
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You can come in on a new IR 2 stage 7HP 80 gal for under $2000. Check Northern Tool. They even have free shipping. You can pickup a used chiller for around $500.
Bill
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Nothing to offer about printing with an auto but, while I've seen pics of shops running those shorty Vastex dryers with an auto, I don't see how in god's name they do it without undercuring shirts. We have an EC-I, 30" wide and it can't keep up with me, printing solo, on the manual, it's not even close.
Next to color capacity I'd wager the dryer is the next bottleneck you'll hit, or maybe sooner. Run some gas up in there and you'll still have the amps you need on the panel. Unless you have 3 phase in a shop space, I don't see big electric dryers being very attractive. Then again, we have one going into ours but we have the 3 phase to handle it.
Northland, your comments intrigue me. My assumption has been that we need no less than a 10/12 due to the nature of our work but, then again a 7/8 could get us to scrill to get that big 'ol press. Has this worked for you running 5 colors? It just seems so limiting to me. But then again, I'll bet a servo machine that small indexes lickety split so you could probably just revolve it with one flash or one of those "color saver" units anatol makes and leave 4/5 open color heads. I'd imagine some jobs are just really slow on it?
Great thread by the way, I'm getting more dug in and ready to get an auto every day I print until 2am or later. Speaking of, off to do it again...
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You can come in on a new IR 2 stage 7HP 80 gal for under $2000. Check Northern Tool. They even have free shipping. You can pickup a used chiller for around $500.
Bill
Hey Bill you are right but what I am wrestling with is having the nice quiet rotary screw compressor for 2K. Then again the press is going to make alot of noise anyway being all air so I may be able to save on amps with a 5hp 2 stage, it will be a little low on CFM (about 17-18) where the rotary screw is (21). The details make this tough. But buying new you get the warranty advantage.
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Nothing to offer about printing with an auto but, while I've seen pics of shops running those shorty Vastex dryers with an auto, I don't see how in god's name they do it without undercuring shirts. We have an EC-I, 30" wide and it can't keep up with me, printing solo, on the manual, it's not even close.
Next to color capacity I'd wager the dryer is the next bottleneck you'll hit, or maybe sooner. Run some gas up in there and you'll still have the amps you need on the panel. Unless you have 3 phase in a shop space, I don't see big electric dryers being very attractive. Then again, we have one going into ours but we have the 3 phase to handle it.
Northland, your comments intrigue me. My assumption has been that we need no less than a 10/12 due to the nature of our work but, then again a 7/8 could get us to scrill to get that big 'ol press. Has this worked for you running 5 colors? It just seems so limiting to me. But then again, I'll bet a servo machine that small indexes lickety split so you could probably just revolve it with one flash or one of those "color saver" units anatol makes and leave 4/5 open color heads. I'd imagine some jobs are just really slow on it?
Great thread by the way, I'm getting more dug in and ready to get an auto every day I print until 2am or later. Speaking of, off to do it again...
My thought was with my current dryer capable of 150 shirts an hour even though they claim 200 I figure if I could double the belt width I could double my capacity to at least 300 an hour. I cant run gas it is a leased space without a uncooperative landlord.
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My thought was with my current dryer capable of 150 shirts an hour even though they claim 200 I figure if I could double the belt width I could double my capacity to at least 300 an hour. I cant run gas it is a leased space without a uncooperative landlord.
I also was a little shocked at the dryer configuration for an auto. That's a small large dryer, or is it a large small dryer?
I don't think that you will be able to double the listed capacity. That rate is assuming that their are two machines, with two un-loaders placing the shirts as if they each had their own dedicated belt.
But, I thought that you were attracted to the modular nature of this dryer, and merely thought that your first few thousand shirts may be run at less than optimum speed, while your earning while learning and can then expand it.
But then you may start running into your supply issue again.
You may need some more service in the shop.
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My thought was with my current dryer capable of 150 shirts an hour even though they claim 200 I figure if I could double the belt width I could double my capacity to at least 300 an hour. I cant run gas it is a leased space without a uncooperative landlord.
I also was a little shocked at the dryer configuration for an auto. That's a small large dryer, or is it a large small dryer?
I don't think that you will be able to double the listed capacity. That rate is assuming that their are two machines, with two un-loaders placing the shirts as if they each had their own dedicated belt.
But, I thought that you were attracted to the modular nature of this dryer, and merely thought that your first few thousand shirts may be run at less than optimum speed, while your earning while learning and can then expand it.
But then you may start running into your supply issue again.
You may need some more service in the shop.
My thinking is I am can cure 150 shirts at 4000 watts 1 panel (22 amps) with a 24" belt. The Vastex ECI 54" is 7000 watts 2 panel (30 amps) with a 54" belt. It would seem you could at least almost double the output of the 24" belt. And you are right I need more space and more electrical. There is a shop thats open about 50 yards from my current shop that I will look into when my lease is up. A screen print shop used to be there and they had autos and big dryers so its an ideal space. My landlord wont let me out of my lease early so that part sucks.
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Northland, your comments intrigue me. My assumption has been that we need no less than a 10/12 due to the nature of our work but, then again a 7/8 could get us to scrill to get that big 'ol press. Has this worked for you running 5 colors? It just seems so limiting to me. But then again, I'll bet a servo machine that small indexes lickety split so you could probably just revolve it with one flash or one of those "color saver" units anatol makes and leave 4/5 open color heads. I'd imagine some jobs are just really slow on it?
Yes... 5 colors is very limiting. I can deal with that.
Here's why a 5x6 Auto works for me..... and why it doesn't work in most shops.
I'm a part-timer (maybe 10 hours a week), in a home based setting.
I have no desire to have employees and no desire to rent space.
I choose to look only for work that fits my business.
So, in a 14' x 23' space with a 100 amp panel... I can print 200-250 shirts an hour (my conv-dryer could maybe handle 300).
I try to average $100/hr for press time and $30/hr for non-press time.
If I can't find those jobs... I chose to not print.
My market niche is simple, spot color, low cost stuff.
My customers aren't paying much for their shirts... so they don't have high expectations.
Easy-peasy... no squeegee pulling with the Titan.
I do 50% of my jobs with no flash.
When I do use my quartz flash... I seldom need a cool-down station.
The quartz is so fast it doesn't drive the heat into the garment and at 200/hr there's cool-down time at the flash before indexing.
The Titan servo has a step back feature.. you can print/flash/stepback
It's sold as a 16"x16" print area.... but I don't think I've ever had to print larger than 14"x14"
I do think that a 5/6 color press would work well (in tandem with a 10/12 press) in many shops.
If I was selling my press... I'd be making that sales pitch.
Why tie up a big press for a 2 color job... add this 8' diameter press & you've got the bases covered !
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They also have the step back program with a pneumatic indexer as well.