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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: ZooCity on October 19, 2020, 05:56:32 PM
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We knew it was coming at some point, extra fun to have to deal with this at the moment!
What is everyone who has used the system moving to? I'm not sure how many people are currently with it, I think ebscreen may be the only other user on here I recall.
Matsui pigments look like our future. We currently use their bases and modifiers exclusively and are very happy with them. I'm sure the PCs will also be up to snuff. However, I've heard from users in the past that the formulations we're kinda awful. Have also heard that this has been brought to Matsui's attention and efforts made to improve. Would really like to hear from Matsui users if any are on here.
Wilflex aquarius/zodiac is the other option but they don't have a super solid track record with sticking with a WB system. We'd like to not do this again for a good amount of time.
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Interesting, I sent a photo of this thread to my guy in inks right now, and he said "Wooowwww". We are deep on inventory of the WB99, this will be interesting.
I've been interested in the Matsui that "follows the Pantone book" for their formulas, although I think it's an RFU vs Pigment, but guess we will have to figure out what to do as well for discharge / water base.
Is there an official announcement online you could link?
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we use 95% matsui.
I am not the ink expert at Night Owls, but feel free to ask me any questions, and I'll get Val to answer them. Or you can email me, and i'll connect you.
Val's built her own formula guide, and we get really close on all of our inks.
Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.
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we use 95% matsui.
I am not the ink expert at Night Owls, but feel free to ask me any questions, and I'll get Val to answer them. Or you can email me, and i'll connect you.
Val's built her own formula guide, and we get really close on all of our inks.
Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.
What are you an expert at?
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The main thing I don't like about the Matsui pigments is that they are really concentrated. Not sure if you dealt with that with the Rutland ones or not? When mixing super small amounts of ink, usually to test a color for example, 1 tiny drop 'effs up the color because of how concentrated they are. Suppose it goes both ways though, it is nicer for mixing larger amounts of ink though so you are not there for 1 min adding yellow or something.
Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.
Is it any good? I feel like they asked for a bunch of input of what people are looking for or would like to see, we gave them a list. But the this thing called covid started going around and I figured they back burnered it. Do they have any cool new features?
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It looks like some of the brite discharge base recipes use Alpha trans white in addition to the base & pigments which is new to me. Will be testing some of those soon
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Zane- like with their discontinuation of the HSA product I don't believe there was much warning given. Our supplier was told about it when they placed a restock order and they then reached out to us.
Eric- my ink person and I would love to talk to Val if they have time.
Alex- Rutland WB99 is high concentration as well. It hasn't been an issue for us but yep, it's a little surgical blending certain mixes accurately. Good scale helps.
There is a new button in the OMX to download your custom formulae. It outputs to an .xls with each row a component of the formula. That wasn't there a few weeks ago when we asked about export, definitely appreciated now!
I would have appreciated it if Wilflex/Avient had made simulations of WB99 formulae using their horoscope mixing system that you could utilize via IMS during transition. We would have been an easy convert there since we already use IMS.
The Mastsui software I used yesterday was an online version and was incomplete.
Matsui does have some RFU but I feel like those have come/gone a lot over the years. The Neo PCs seem the more stable system to bet on and nearest to what we are used to. I'm not sure we could get by with an RFU system having used PC for so long and having the color demands we do. Last I inquired, the current (maybe upcoming?) RFU system is more of an "MSA" ink; medium solids, not as high solids as the HSA but more than traditional WB inks. We pretty much stick to traditional WB here except for the 301 WB White we run for spot color is like the above and has a little more body.
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I'd thought this would be coming for quite some time, the notices a month ago in the Rutland software
migrating to IMS made it more real, and our distributor recently confirmed. Late stage capitalism is super cool.
We'll be going to Matsui as well. We've used it in the past, there was some things we liked and some we didn't,
but like with anything you find your way to make it work.
One thing I didn't like was the different bases for high/low mesh. Ideally we'd continue to use CCI D-Base
and the Matsui pigments, anyone using that combo?
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We already use Matsui bases and additives exclusively and don't run a different base for high or low mesh, we use 301 C Clear for all our WB printing, up through 330/30 mesh.
What would be the advantage of the different base particle sizes?
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Sorry, should have mentioned I was referring to their discharge bases.
The low mesh version is much brighter, behaves similarly to the CCI D-base,
but wasn't really pleasant through higher meshes (duh) when we tested.
The high mesh version just wasn't very bright in my experience.
D-base covered all the bases for us so yeah...
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Oh we only one DC base too, lol. Brite DC Base. Due to the dye and fabric inconsistencies we moved away from straight DC, another story, but the Brite DC Base is our UB on most WB prints and prints through the 330. Have we been needlessly punishing ourselves?
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Got it, that's kinda what I figured. Being mostly contract we don't have the luxury of deciding how,
so we do what we're asked and if the garments suck not my chair not my problem.
I don't know if the Brite was out when we were testing, certainly wasn't recommended to me when I asked anyway.
Spec sheet suggests top mesh of 180 but we all know what suggested means. Good to know there's
a viable base compatible with the pigments.
I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever.
Oasis?
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I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever. Oasis?
We are probably going to Matsui. Definitely not the Aquarius. Although I'm not laughing as I'd rather just continue with what we have been using.
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I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever. Oasis?
We are probably going to Matsui. Definitely not the Aquarius. Although I'm not laughing as I'd rather just continue with what we have been using.
True that. Our distributor is pissed too cause now they inherit the zodiac but no one wants it due to Polyone's history.
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Howdy, I work at Avient (FRMLY: Polyone).
I apologize for the hassle, Operating a company during Covid is hard enough right now and unfortunately that has affected us as well.
The reasons we discontinued WB-99 are as follows:
The Zodiac line is meant to be our collection of our most environmentally friendly products. It would not make sense to continue to offer WB-99 while striving to control our environmental impact with better products.
The Aquarius water base system within the Zodiac offers APEO free bases and pigments. Yes, you can use your remaining WB-99 pigments with the Aquarius bases, that was something we had to take into consideration.
Higher pantone accuracy.
Concentrated pigment system consisting of only 15 pigments including Fluo's.
Better printability than WB99, better discharge that does not require any ZFS adjustments, Better wash fastness.
I'd really encourage you all to check it out, Danny at Denver Print House has been producing excellent prints with it after testing every waterbase he could get his hands on. I think someone mentioned that we have Jeanette Hardy previously of Magna.
For what it's worth, when I saw the Zodiac system for the first time I was so impressed I asked if I could be moved from sales to work on her team. I now work in applications development and support for all the brands with a focus on Zodiac products.
We are very passionate about producing the best water base ink system possible, and equally passionate about producing it in the U.S.A.
This is the best American water base screen printing ink system ever created. I think we are also the best internationally- but I clearly have a bias in that direction!
Our team within Avient that works on Zodiac products is very passionate and we really take a lot of pride in our work.
Again, I would urge you to try our system, speak to people who have, and to buy American.
Please let me know if there is anything I can assist you with. I know it's a pain when a company switches their systems, it's the last thing we want to do most of the time. But we had to do it, and we will have to continue to make changes in the future as technology advances, materials change, or become unavailable.
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Seems a tad shortsighted by some to completely write off Aquarius. I haven’t seen anything on this thread specifically talking about any issues with Aquarius. In fact it’s been quite the opposite from my industry readings regarding Polyone’s new WB line. From my understanding the coloring matching is one of the best in the industry with almost zero adjusting when printing on a white base.
So why aren’t people not even trying the new system?
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So why aren’t people not even trying the new system?
According to our distributor, Rutland/Wilflex/Polyone/Avient/etc. won't inform them on what's going on with their standing orders. That leaves shops like ours unaware of how much supply/time they have with the WB99 system.
A lot of needless stress coming from this, at a most inappropriate time, due to the way this is being handled imo. I believe all of us have had enough disruption and uncertainty in general this year. To now be faced with a major shortage of critical product in what is a busy season for many isn't appreciated.
I'd honestly prefer to move into the IMS with our WB/DC mixes but this is straight up rude the way the transition is being handled. It tells me to expect more of the same if we stick with them.
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That’s really unfortunate. Seems to me John or Ray would want to get on this.
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Nearing the end of our WB-99 Pigments, wondering where everyone else ended up?
It's coming down to CCI or Matsui for us, each their positives and negatives of course.
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Nearing the end of our WB-99 Pigments, wondering where everyone else ended up?
It's coming down to CCI or Matsui for us, each their positives and negatives of course.
Halfway over to Aquarius. Still need to work out some details regarding opacity over a discharge base for certain colors but mixes are good so far. Tinting Matsui bases with them. Went Wilflex since it's a singular software/workflow for us as we us IMS for plastisol. Ordering from Midwest and so far they've been just fine as a vendor.
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we have Rut WB pigments here to last a lifetime. But - we couldn't get any mixing white. no where. all gone.
So - we went with the CCI CMS system. Full shop switch. Definitely different than the rutland WB,
but we will figure it out. - John
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John let me know if you are interested in getting rid of the rutland PCs.........I know that system quite well and could use in my studio
tp
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but we will figure it out.
Over the years I've learned that we can make just about anything work. Obviously you want to start with
the best product, but all else being equal things like availability and if the vendor has a sense of humor become more important.
So far we've got one for Aquarius and one for CCI. Anyone else?
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So far we've got one for Aquarius and one for CCI. Anyone else?
We are 99% Matsui base and CCI pigments, have been for years. We tried the Aquarius I wanna say like 1-1.5 years ago when it first was coming out, had their sales guy to the shop to walk through what a changeover would look like. For us a good red was problematic and their DC white could not compete. Sales guy agreed and kinda just left us his info if we wanted to change. I'm wondering if they maybe dialed things in a bit more now? They didn't even really officially have a mixing program at that point we could print formulas out with. Has this changed?
Ordering from Midwest and so far they've been just fine as a vendor.
Have they said anything at all about things changing since they got bought out? We buy nothing from them, and have very little contact with them even though their headquarters is like 7 min from us. So after they got bought we got hit up a lot by them(which was very out of the norm) with a lot of stuff they were clearing out. Just more wondering if since the company that bought them is much more into the sign/digital market if they were going to trim their screen printing offerings?
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We are 99% Matsui base and CCI pigments, have been for years.
Any particular reason you don't use the CCI base? We've been using it since inception and have always really liked it.
It's funny to me that everyone is using one companies pigments with another companies base.
Whoever built Midwest's website for them is laughing all the way to the bank.
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We are 99% Matsui base and CCI pigments, have been for years.
Any particular reason you don't use the CCI base? We've been using it since inception and have always really liked it.
For us it is much easier to get, plus it seemed to be a bit more vivid. CCI stuff smells WAY better though!
We are 99% Matsui base and CCI pigments, have been for years.
Whoever built Midwest's website for them is laughing all the way to the bank.
Their website 100% mirrors how they run(or did run) their business though if you really think about!
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I didn't know Midwest was purchased, do you know by who? Wilflex won't let distros selling other WB PCs sell Aquarius from what I understand. It'd be just my luck that we'd switch to the Aquarius product and it'd go nla.
I too have been shocked by the perfectly normal, mostly trouble free service we have received from Midwest, maybe a new leaf is turning?
We used CCI pigs and bases in the past- good stuff. PC are much less concentrated than WB99 if I recall accurately, makes for easier handing of them but less consistent ink rheology btwn colors.
It is funny that everyone mixes it up. We tried to stick to one system but Rutland's bases were never too great for us and it turns out we like the Matsui bases and Whites a lot, they're abt perfect for us. Wanted to go Matsui PCs here but the combination of a bad reputation for initial formula accuracy and the half finished mixing software pushed us to Wilflex. I agree they all work fine- availability and workflow are prob much more important than the specific system. You can always change the base, haha.
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I didn't know Midwest was purchased, do you know by who?
Grimco. 99.5% sure they are out of Canada.
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Huh, doesn't look like Grimco offers any textile supplies. I guess we'll see how this goes.
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Huh, doesn't look like Grimco offers any textile supplies. I guess we'll see how this goes.
From my understanding, Grimco can only sell these products - and other primary supplies - out of the legacy MWS locations.
As a side note, the Magna line has made huge impact on sales in the US, Central America, and Mexico in many many customer facilities. Nazdar reps all over; GSG in seven states in the SW.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Finally got ahold of a person at the Grimco owned Midwest to order some unrelated product that we previously got from them and um....definitely not. I would recommend steering well clear of Midwest, once again.
Aquarius system is performing well for us. Most mixes need the pigs tripled. Def requires a precision scale, 0.0X or better and you best be on yer A game when measuring out and dispersing that black PC. It is super nice to have this all in one program for mixing, the IMS makes it very easy to move through a shift of mixes. Availability may still bite us but we'll see.
Anyone else on Aquarius at this point?
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we made the switch to CCI and were, eh.. struggling with accurate mixes...
So - we doubled down and just switched to Aquarius. Waiting for the pigs to arrive so we can start testing...
Well see how it goes.. but - all the Rut WB pigs are compatible, which means we can use all the quarts and quarts that we have.
- John