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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: sqslabs on July 21, 2014, 03:17:00 PM
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I'm just about tapped out of certain pigments with my Matsui PC matching system, and since I can no longer find the pigments anywhere, I'm considering all options when looking at a new system. It will be used for both waterbased and discharge color mixing. I understand there probably isn't a perfect matching system out there, but considering I'll have to create a new library from scratch, the closer it gets the better.
So far on the list I have:
Matsui RC / Neo
CCI CMS
Rutland WB-99
Any experience with these or any other systems would be appreciated. I'm looking to pull the trigger on a new system in the next couple days.
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Magna or Rutland would be a good start. CCI as well, although I don't have experience with their pigs. Most systems now offer formulation however the accuracy is debatable.
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CCI is PAINFULLY easy. The one thing I do like about the Rutland system that has us "starting" to transition a bit is the recycle feature on their software.... Nice feature to have and if it works as advertised, could cut some waste.
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Sericol is our favorite so far. pop the lid go... If you need to discharge, add some agent. Pigs were too messy and a general PITA. CCI is too hard for us to get way out here in NY....
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Magna or Rutland would be a good start. CCI as well, although I don't have experience with their pigs. Most systems now offer formulation however the accuracy is debatable.
Thanks man, will check out the Magna line as well.
In regards to accuracy, these days I just use the formulas as a rough guideline for WB and make adjustments on the fly during mixing. For discharge I usually just wing it and mix in 100g batches until I hit the mark. The Matsui PC system is far from perfect, so my expectations definitely aren't too high on that side of things.
One thing I left out in my original post is the viscosity of the inks. Matsui's bases are pretty runny, and something with a bit more body to it would be nice as well. I recently tried some of the CCI D-Flo inks and was pleasantly surprised at how creamy they were, but haven't seen any of their other inks besides the D-White.
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CCI is PAINFULLY easy. The one thing I do like about the Rutland system that has us "starting" to transition a bit is the recycle feature on their software.... Nice feature to have and if it works as advertised, could cut some waste.
Please tell me more of this recycle feature sir! Are the bases around the same price for CCI/Rutland?
Sericol is our favorite so far. pop the lid go... If you need to discharge, add some agent. Pigs were too messy and a general PITA. CCI is too hard for us to get way out here in NY....
Thanks, will check those out as well.
I honestly wasn't expecting so many options. I think there were two or three when I got my current system.
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CCI Base, Rutland pigs.
We use the CCI Black pigment because the Rutland was chunking up on us too often, and we like
it, but if you are paying for shipping, you are largely shipping water.
The formulas are typically pretty accurate which is nice.
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I keep meaning to give those Sericol inks a shot. Do the colors come out the same activated or unactivated?
CCI base, Rutland pigs, that's funny we were testing a similar mixture. Except we were using Matsui bright discharge base... That stuff is damn near white!
One thing I simply can't understand is why ALL Matsui bases and binders smell absolutely horrible! The Rutland and CCI ones are nice. The W-Base from CCI smells heavily of cherries!
Side note, if you are paying to ship inks or chemicals, you are doing something wrong ???
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CCI ships free for us over $200 or so, not sure about folks across the country, ours typically comes on a pallet.
Don't let the smell fool you, I've heard it's an additive to mask the nasty nast they all smell like.
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I'm fine with the additive to make it smell better, just wish Matsui would add it! :D
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First thing I noticed when testing the CCI D-White was how good it smelled. I spoke to an old school discharge guy a couple months ago who told me they used to add scents to the inks back in the day, interesting to see CCI implement it directly into the product. No complaints here!
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Rutland adds it to the white too. All I'm saying is don't go eating the stuff like I've seen some of my employees
tempted to do. Just because it smells good doesn't mean it tastes good!
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All I'm saying is don't go eating the stuff like I've seen some of my employees
tempted to do. Just because it smells good doesn't mean it tastes good!
Oh of course not! That's just ridiculous it's much too runny to eat, we usually dink it like a protein shake! Adding too much activator can make you slow and grogy though! ;D
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So I just realized we kind of side stepped your original question/goal which I think would be a good resource. So for companies or options you had-
So far on the list there is:
-Matsui RC / Neo
-CCI CMS
-Rutland WB-99
-Wilflex
-Union(although from what I understand there is no mixing software)
-Virus
-Magna
-Sericol
-Permaset(I believe no DC or mixing software)
-Amex(coming to the states)
-Green Galaxy(currently a few RFU's and base, mixing software and pigments on their way)
-Simplex(SP?) Pigment system and mixing software on its way from my understanding
-Speedball
I know of a handful of large companies that essentially make their own(Tony did you say you guys do this?)
If I'm missing any hopefully others will chime in with them!
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First thing I noticed when testing the CCI D-White was how good it smelled. I spoke to an old school discharge guy a couple months ago who told me they used to add scents to the inks back in the day, interesting to see CCI implement it directly into the product. No complaints here!
They like doing that at CCI and not only to their inks. Their Orange emulsion smells like oranges and their heavy duty block out has as well a slightly funny smell to it.
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So I just realized we kind of side stepped your original question/goal which I think would be a good resource. So for companies or options you had-
So far on the list there is:
-Matsui RC / Neo
-CCI CMS
-Rutland WB-99
-Wilflex
-Union(although from what I understand there is no mixing software)
-Virus
-Magna
-Sericol
-Permaset(I believe no DC or mixing software)
-Amex(coming to the states)
-Green Galaxy(currently a few RFU's and base, mixing software and pigments on their way)
-Simplex(SP?) Pigment system and mixing software on its way from my understanding
-Speedball
I feel like I'm in the cereal aisle. :o
I ordered a Magna starter kit today to test out. Nazdar is running a special with 4oz of each pigment and a gallon of any base for under $100 which I couldn't pass up. I'd also like to try out one or two other systems before making the decision and I think right now CCI and Rutland are leading the charge. Does anyone know where I can find a starter kit similar to the Magna one for either of those systems? I found a 8oz CCI kit w/ a gallon of D-Base for $300, but not much else. If I can't find something like the Magna kit, I guess I could just order a quart of a premixed color from each brand and test those.
I've been impressed with the CCI discharge inks I've had a chance to test out, but haven't had a chance to use their WB inks or anything from Rutland. From what I've gathered here, both are great systems, and I'll probably give them both a shot before pulling the trigger, including the hybrid mixes mentioned in this thread.
Thanks for all the help. Any and all comments are still appreciated, and I'll keep the thread updated with my own findings & tests.
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I know Rutland has a starter kit, but it runs $500+ which sucks for testing purposes! Pretty sure Virus has one also. Really it is a great idea for a company to make one at day the $300 or under mark. Even if distributors made their own kits and poured down to small 4oz. bottles of pigment I would think they would probably sell very well!
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I know Rutland has a starter kit, but it runs $500+ which sucks for testing purposes! Pretty sure Virus has one also. Really it is a great idea for a company to make one at day the $300 or under mark. Even if distributors made their own kits and poured down to small 4oz. bottles of pigment I would think they would probably sell very well!
Agreed. Does the Rutland kit come with 16oz pigs and 5ers of base?
I just spoke with my local CCI rep and he's getting me the 8oz kit I mentioned above for $150. Beyond that I guess I'll try to get some Rutland samples or order a quart or two of premixed inks to play with. Definitely not dropping 5 bills to test it out.
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I dig the CCI system, get some of the Retarder too. I like the mixing system but most of the time I make some mods to what it gives me though. Just did PMS 165 the other day & it was a nice bright 165 & after a few washes its still a nice bright 165.
I hear nothing but good things about the Rutland & Magna lines but CCI is my quickest ship. I have been trying to get ahold of a sample kit of Union ( Pavonine ) from my distributer, but he keeps dropping the ball, I hear good things about it though.
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Sericol is our favorite so far. pop the lid go... If you need to discharge, add some agent. Pigs were too messy and a general PITA. CCI is too hard for us to get way out here in NY....
I will have CCI products made available in the northeast/southeast very soon. Just let me know what you would like to see and quantities and I will get this handled for you and others as well.
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Another brand you can add to the list is Jantex. Never used them and don't know much about them, but the name popped into my head today, figured I'd add it to the list!
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Another brand you can add to the list is Jantex. Never used them and don't know much about them, but the name popped into my head today, figured I'd add it to the list!
I haven't heard much about them either, but I really can't wait to get to a show soon to see all of these inks in one place.
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You won't. Many of these companies do not exhibit at SP trade shows. And you may not necessarily see demos just results which may be misleading.
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You won't. Many of these companies do not exhibit at SP trade shows. And you may not necessarily see demos just results which may be misleading.
Well that's lame. I was just going off what I saw on the Jantex website.
In regards to demos, I'm happy to do my own if they supply the samples. 8)
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QCM had a PC system for a short while before they were bought by Rutland, it was all Jantex PC's and additives. It worked just fine, but as per the norm, their recipe generator was really hit and miss. The recipe for red, even with "boost" or "ultra boost" came out as a sickly flesh colour and needed 3-4 times the pigment called for to get to be a true red.
I use Image technologies D/C white. It was runny as hell, but we liked it more than squeegee climbing whites.
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As of this writing the Rutland white plus is the whitest. My opinion but based on real time production testing and even a competitors rep admitted it was better than their own.
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Matsui RC Neo is the new and improved mixing system.
Rutland has great formulations and their pigments work great with our bases too.
The bases included in the Matsui line are:
-Clear 301C (High mesh transparent base)
-Matte 301M (High mesh semi-opaque base)
-White 301W (High mesh mixing white base and underbase)
-Stretch Clear 301C (High elasticity transparent base)
-Stretch Matte 301M (High elasticity transparent base)
-Stretch White 301-5 (High elasticity mixing white and underbase)
-HM Discharge Base (High Mesh Discharge base)
-Bright Discharge Base (Semi Opaque Discharge Base for bright colors)
Sample kits available for $189.99.
Other systems to name a few are as follows:
Magna
Virus
Jantex
Sericol
etc...