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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: cclaud3 on July 04, 2018, 12:08:39 PM
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Hello, we have had several people doing screen breakdown and reclaim over the last year. I am curious on everyone's standards for busted screens during reclaim.
No matter who is doing the reclaiming, they are busting 1-3 screens per reclaim session of 30-40 screens.
They are busting both on the sensitive edge of the panels and in open areas. We have gorilla taped the edges for a bit of extra durability.
We have 1 endurance frame but it doesn't protect against open mesh carelessness.
In the eight years of me doing all of the reclaim I would pop 2-5 screens per year. I suspect some maybe from old age of mesh.
We are using shurlocs ranging from 110 standard mesh, 155 s mesh, 225 s mesh, 280 standard mesh. Almost equal breaking of mesh types/counts.
Replacement material cost alone are $25-$35 per panel factoring in shipping costs plus labor to restretch.
We don't use any tape for registration marks, just blockout. Had reclaimers hitting the scotch tape causing busting so we converted to blockout only.
Tape is used on squeegee side to protect from edges of squeegees and at top during initial pressure contact.
Most of busting from them rough loading into racks probably hitting other screens. Keeping washer in the same spot on the mesh for too long. Hitting tape (no longer an issue). Fingernails going through mesh while picking up.
So what is an acceptable percentage of screens to bust per year. We are reclaiming 20-40 per day. I am ok with 12-15 per hour, so I don't think it's due to rushing the process. Thanks.
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Tell your guys to not be so darn rough! ;)
Yes, some breakage will happen, its normal. ANYone who will ever handle a screen, HAS to understand that the screen is their lively hood. No Screen - no work. Treat it with loving care.
If they don't - you need to re-teach that mentality.
If they cant learn that - move them to a different department or let them go...
Teach them to remove ALL tape before going into reclaim - its easy.
Teach them not to bang the screens together while stacking - its easy.
Teach them to be AWARE of the physical space they work in and how they move the objects - screens - within that space so they are not bumping corners of screens and edges of screens together creating nicks in the mesh that will pop - its easy.
Breaking habits - hard - Building new habits - time consuming - Your sanity at the end - priceless.
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1 to 3 per reclaim... ohhh hellll no!
If you break one more screen, go home and take 3 days off because the cost of those screens you broke is more than your daily wage. If you cant see that, then dont come back.
The last screen i broke in reclaim was because i dropped the wand and it hit the screen.. that was last year.
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I've had more pop in the screen dryer than in reclaim, almost none using a pressure washer over decades...
Steve
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Yeah, I've considered telling them I am cutting 2 or 3 hours off of each week for damages but it's just going to tick them off and maybe cause more harm. I'd really love the thought of it though. At some point they won't get any hours! :o
If it was just 1 individual then I'd know it's probably them. 3 people in a row and maybe it's just my bad luck. I wouldn't freak out if I was hearing feedback along the lines of "yeah usually 1 busts every reclaim cycle".
I go back and shadow them and give them friendly reminders but the focus wears off so fast. 2 of them had previous reclaim experience and say they never busted so many at the other shops. They are trying to use the sharp-edged shurloc frames as a possible excuse. I mean, I don't bust them so I know it's possible not to.
I was considering doing a changeout to the endurance panels with edge protection but we still have so many problems in the open mesh areas it still wouldn't solve it. Appreciate the comments.
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No need to change products, they need to change how they use them.
Many shops use reclaim as a form of punishment or the area is so filthy and gross with a very noisy pressure washer droning in your ears all day you cant work without getting all nasty yourself.
Reclaim/screens are one of, if not the most important floor job and should be reserved for a detail oriented self starting kind of person.
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John is 100% correct.
I never put anyone who cant be aware of what/why/where/how they do things in the screen room.
I will state it again:
Screen are your life in this industry. Treat them with care and respect. When you don't - it will cost you far more money than you will realize.
I go back and shadow them and give them friendly reminders but the focus wears off so fast. 2 of them had previous reclaim experience and say they never busted so many at the other shops. They are trying to use the sharp-edged shurloc frames as a possible excuse. I mean, I don't bust them so I know it's possible not to.
That right there is the employee telling you they are not aware AT ALL of what they are doing. If they know the edges are sharp - why are they bumping the frames around?
Proper handling of the screen = no breakage or spoilage.
This also goes for the employees: taping screens - setting up the screens - putting in squeegees and floodbars - using a device to put ink into and out of the screen - pulling screens when done - cleaning screens - allllll the way back into the cyclical system.
Everyone who touches that screen has to be aware of what they are physically doing. I have watched employees put a finger through the mesh just by grabbing the screen....
It really can not be emphasized enough: Especially with thin thread mesh.
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I see more breakages happen from starting the pressure washer on the mesh rather then off to the side and guiding on.
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I'm the only one that reclaims and although I don't go through as many as some of you here, maybe 3000 a year, I'm broke one screen because I pulled it out of the dissolver tank at an angle and the corner caught another screen.
I would show them how to be more careful for sure.
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All above sounds like good advice, and on point for the overall situation. But I'd add: Ask to to see those broken screens. If they are literally all breaking in the same manner or spot (sharp frame edges), then maybe a procedural or equipment change is in order. It might be as simple as changing the way they're racking screens, or something like that. Investigate whether there's some amount of credence to what your guys are saying before coming down hard over it. (Even if they ought to be able to solve/avoid the problem on their own!) But if you investigate and find the screens are being broken in a variety of ways, then you've got to a people problem to manage!
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Man I can't remember the last time I busted a screen during reclaim..1-3 frames per reclaim yep they have to GO!!!! like everyone else I've had more screens pop just sitting on the rack or in the dry room. I do remember having a guy clean screens and busted 5 that day and he never worked there again ever ;)
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sometimes the screens get scared on the press with sharp tools. Then they break during reclaim. We had a similar problem, not quite as severe, but we got rid of all the plastic and metal ink handling tools (short of skinny mixing spatulas that are not used in the screens) and things improved drastically. We go through boxes of cleanup cards now, but screen breakage is down 80%.
Goop scoops are particularly nasty as their corners dig into the mesh wile reinking or cleaning out the ink. If you don't see anything particularly wrong with the guys cleaning, problem might be on the press. . .
I would spend a day and watch the guy wash the screens to see at least one or two break. You'll know better what is going on. If you do't have the time, set up a camera to record what's going on. Than have the screen guy stop it when the screen breaks.
pierre
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sometimes the screens get scared on the press with sharp tools. Then they break during reclaim. We had a similar problem, not quite as severe, but we got rid of all the plastic and metal ink handling tools (short of skinny mixing spatulas that are not used in the screens) and things improved drastically. We go through boxes of cleanup cards now, but screen breakage is down 80%.
Goop scoops are particularly nasty as their corners dig into the mesh while reinking or cleaning out the ink. If you don't see anything particularly wrong with the guys cleaning, problem might be on the press. . .
I would spend a day and watch the guy wash the screens to see at least one or two break. You'll know better what is going on. If you do't have the time, set up a camera to record what's going on. Than have the screen guy stop it when the screen breaks.
pierre
how much ink do you typically have in the screen at the end of the run? i had considered the clean up cards but we typically have lots (sometimes up to a quart) of ink in the screen and a clean up card seems like it would add time to the cleanup.
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sometimes the screens get scared on the press with sharp tools. Then they break during reclaim. We had a similar problem, not quite as severe, but we got rid of all the plastic and metal ink handling tools (short of skinny mixing spatulas that are not used in the screens) and things improved drastically. We go through boxes of cleanup cards now, but screen breakage is down 80%.
Goop scoops are particularly nasty as their corners dig into the mesh while reinking or cleaning out the ink. If you don't see anything particularly wrong with the guys cleaning, problem might be on the press. . .
I would spend a day and watch the guy wash the screens to see at least one or two break. You'll know better what is going on. If you do't have the time, set up a camera to record what's going on. Than have the screen guy stop it when the screen breaks.
pierre
how much ink do you typically have in the screen at the end of the run? i had considered the clean up cards but we typically have lots (sometimes up to a quart) of ink in the screen and a clean up card seems like it would add time to the cleanup.
we typically have less then a quart, but not much less. I don't see the cleanup cards as being slower than spatulas though. The only down side is that you are more likely to get your fingers in the ink with them, but they might even be faster than other things as you always have a clean stack sitting on the press arm and you don't have to clean anything. When you are done, just toss it and move on.
Order a box and give them a shot, you are likely to stick with them. We use them for all kinds of things including mixing ink (taking the ink out of the clean bucket without having to wipe the mixing blade).
pierre
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I have all my crew here save their beer, soda, food style cardboard boxes........ We then recycle those into ink cards that we use here to card ink from buckets to screens then back into buckets.......
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Yeah all 3 people have been pretty consistent on busting. Must be bad luck in hiring.
They are using a combo of ROQ spatulas & quick cleanup cards. No metal or sharp ink cleanup tools.
Busting is happening on edges and in open areas. Edge seems to be from spastic loading into screens racks. I am a sounding like a broken record with them about slowing down.
I have requested if they ever see a hole in the mesh before they start carding ink out to let me know. The (open area) holes always appears after pressure washer use.
Haven't seen any an rough squeegee/floodbar handling while they are pulling screens out of press.
Really seems like I have a spree of people with a lack of attention to detail. I am on the production floor with them all day.
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If my employees were busting 1-3 screens every reclaim session, there would be some serious retraining. If it continued, they would be let go. Those are absurd numbers in my opinion. We have a system for cleaning and reclaiming screens that is strictly forbidden to be differed from. The first thing we tell people when training for cleaning and reclaiming is ?Let the chemicals do the work?. Rough scrubbing and spraying is just not necessary.
First it sounds like it may be a training issue. Second is that they just don?t care. I can?t have any crew member in my staff that just doesn?t care. In my shop, we might bust 1 screen every 200-300 reclaimed. And that?s usually due to heavy handed excess ink scraping (rushing).
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Like Pierre, we use the cardboard cleanup cards as well as these that you can find at Kroger. They don't bend and don't have sharp corners. Plus they are very easy to clean.
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I cannot get cards locally so I took a sample to a paper supplier.
Found a similar weight card in sheets and we cut a few thousand at a time.
Costs almost nothing per card.
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Are these the Shurloc Panels?
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we use metal putty knives, but we round the corners. you can also buff the edges to take any sharpness off. They work great.
I tried cleanup cards...I thought they were the worst thing I had ever used for ink. I love them for emulsion and cleaning the scoop coater.
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Are these the Shurloc Panels?
Yes. Standard statics are a little more forgiving but I can reclaim without busting these shurlocs.
I am training these individuals and can't imagine being any more thorough with them.
We are only putting 4 screens in at a time, the tank can hold 5 or 6.
They must be busting while putting them into the tank and/or while pressure washing. While I watch I never see any busting. Maybe I'll look into a camera system.
So, I am now confirming that it is absurd to bust this many. I mean as an owner I would never bust this many, if shop assistants/reclaimers broke this many.
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Are these the Shurloc Panels?
Yes. Standard statics are a little more forgiving but I can reclaim without busting these shurlocs.
I am training these individuals and can't imagine being any more thorough with them.
We are only putting 4 screens in at a time, the tank can hold 5 or 6.
They must be busting while putting them into the tank and/or while pressure washing. While I watch I never see any busting. Maybe I'll look into a camera system.
So, I am now confirming that it is absurd to bust this many. I mean as an owner I would never bust this many, if shop assistants/reclaimers broke this many.
loading multiple at a time into the tank is asking for trouble (and you are finding it). EZ panels of S mesh are super sensitive. if you bump a frame against the panel while pulling it into the tank, it will break during pressure washing. we had to load one at a time (into the tank) for several years until they learned how to do it properly.
pierre
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Does anyone track the number of runs a screen had? Any idea of the age of the screens?
Seems really high. But we?ve been busting a lot lately too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We have had a run of breaks too, but all of them are on press, and the holes develop in the exposed mesh Of the image while on press, then they pop while on press or while waiting for reclaim. Almost wondering if something in our ink is causing the pops, like clumps of pigment or something. 90% of holes are on screens used with white ink.
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I have my father with me for a couple hours every day. His primary job is reclaim . In about two years he has popped about 4 screens.
We have about 50% S mesh balance is 156 to 230 .
I should mention my father is 88 years old left hand impared from stroke, low vision.
Here are my key elements that keep me from remeshing screens.
The scrub pad is always clean never allow embedded emulsion to dry and harden.
Pressure washer is never used with a concentrated pin point stream
Pressure washer is never held closer than @ 6 inches from the screen.
My father is on a timer he waits 12 minutes from the last scrub to pressure washer, he usually cycles 4 -6 screens at a time so the dwell time overall is in most cases greater than 12 minutes.
Lastly most important when I recoat I inspect the mesh closely. ANY pin holes etc are set aside and treated with either a patch of fine mesh and 5 minute epoxy and a trip through the vacuum blanket to squeeze the patch and mesh to super smooth and thin.
On smaller holes I simply spread a little 5 minute epoxy in a circular pattern all around the the hole .
This seems to work I break more screens from bumping ,dropping etc than from reclaim.
Mooseman
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Are these the Shurloc Panels?
Yes. Standard statics are a little more forgiving but I can reclaim without busting these shurlocs.
I am training these individuals and can't imagine being any more thorough with them.
We are only putting 4 screens in at a time, the tank can hold 5 or 6.
They must be busting while putting them into the tank and/or while pressure washing. While I watch I never see any busting. Maybe I'll look into a camera system.
So, I am now confirming that it is absurd to bust this many. I mean as an owner I would never bust this many, if shop assistants/reclaimers broke this many.
We have the shurloc panels, I have 25 frames sitting off to the side. Because we develop holes in the open areas. I can not figure it out why they develop there. It seems to only be the shurlocs, since we have statics that do not get the holes. I watch the reclaim guys and they are doing nothing out of the ordinary.
I thought maybe it was the flood bar, maybe the guys nicked it somehow, but bought some new ones. Still can not figure it out.
A while ago I called them and they said to spray something over it, maybe a spray with baking soda? I cannot quite remember, they said that could cause the mesh breakdown. All of my shurlocs had holes in them by that time so I have not tried it.. but like I said my statics are fine.
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do you use a dip tank?
sharp corner edges on Shurlocs can put holes in mesh when
dipping multiples at the same time. We've been there.
Only takes bump and the mesh can get knicked.
John
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we don't use a dip tank.
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Are these the Shurloc Panels?
Yes. Standard statics are a little more forgiving but I can reclaim without busting these shurlocs.
I am training these individuals and can't imagine being any more thorough with them.
We are only putting 4 screens in at a time, the tank can hold 5 or 6.
They must be busting while putting them into the tank and/or while pressure washing. While I watch I never see any busting. Maybe I'll look into a camera system.
So, I am now confirming that it is absurd to bust this many. I mean as an owner I would never bust this many, if shop assistants/reclaimers broke this many.
We have the shurloc panels, I have 25 frames sitting off to the side. Because we develop holes in the open areas. I can not figure it out why they develop there. It seems to only be the shurlocs, since we have statics that do not get the holes. I watch the reclaim guys and they are doing nothing out of the ordinary.
I thought maybe it was the flood bar, maybe the guys nicked it somehow, but bought some new ones. Still can not figure it out.
A while ago I called them and they said to spray something over it, maybe a spray with baking soda? I cannot quite remember, they said that could cause the mesh breakdown. All of my shurlocs had holes in them by that time so I have not tried it.. but like I said my statics are fine.
sharp corners on the inking tools will cause holes too. keep an eye on what you are doing while adding or removing ink from the screens.
EZ frames are more sensitive as they are tighter than statics. Additionally, most of our EZ frames are S mesh which is very sensitive.
pierre
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we use ink cards...
yes def more sensitive.
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we use ink cards...
yes def more sensitive.
make sure you are not poking the corners of the ink cards into the mesh. While it's paper, it's thick enough to cause problems. . .
pierre
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Sounds more like there are "things' in the operation/process along the way that are contributing factors. Not just employee's that are causing it, but "things". Like the guys mentioned above. Scrapings, Knicks, etc.
We prob have around 2-4 a year pop but from various locations. Not just reclaim.