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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: sonicweaponprinting on December 03, 2012, 08:44:46 PM
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First off, this is my first post on these forums, I tend to always get and find some really great threads whenever I have questions, and just wanted to say thanks already for all the great info that can be found here. I also like how helpful everyone is when they respond to people, and it seems like a great community, so I'm glad I've finally joined. Thanks to those who contribute so frequently, I always love learning new things here.
So, about my original post subject, I am only a few months old into my operation as a side business, its going really well, have printed about 12-14 jobs for a total of about 12-1400 tees, but I'm currently setup on a workhorse Manual tabletop bench press 4/1 and I'm quickly getting large jobs and repeat orders of those jobs that are fairly technical in their designs, so they're really slowing down my efficiency w/ how man flashes they need. After months of researching vastex, m&r, anatol, antec, and Brown mfg presses, I had narrowed my choice down to a Vastex V2000HD, mainly for price, and also for solid construction. After telling a friend who runs his shop that he also built up from the same tabletop press I own that I lent to him in college, who owns a Hopkins International, and a Sidewinder, as well as a Javelin, told me I'd hate printing on the vastex due to the boards being designed weird (a personal observation I was concerned about originally before finding out from someone who had owned one and sold one first hand) and that it was almost too heavy for long periods of printing. Then I also was informed from another member of the board here about a few other things that just kind of struck me as odd from a design perspective on the v2000hd (skateboard wheel and truck for indexing) that no other presses had in their designs. (why?)
When it came down to re-examining I decided on a sidewinder 6/6 or a 6/4, possibly with airlocks. I'd like the ability to be able to upgrade a chameleon from a 6/6/ to a 10/6 or a 6/4 to a 10/4 down the road with the second upper deck of arms. The expandability of the chameleon is attractive, and I'd also most likely be getting side clamps on the chameleon or sidewinder as well.
The questions I had was, what would you guys pick if you had to chance to purchase one new, sidewinder, or the chameleon, and for what reasons. If the sidewinder, is it due to lightness and easier to print on for longer periods? or if its the chameleon, is it because its more solid or rigid w/ less flex and no chances for small registration issues due to the flex?
Second question, if I use airclamps, what is the lowest psi compressor needed, and is a chiller also needed to run the air locks. I have a small basement, and work during the middle of the night, would I have to be concerned w/ the compressor kicking on and off as frequently as they do when they are powering auto presses? Can anyone post a picture of their compression tanks used to power their manual m&R airlocked press?
I saw a ton of great picks that Alan Johnston posted of his sidewinder on here and it is a beautiful press. I guess I'm just trying to make sure I'm making the right choice for all the right reasons before I pull the trigger on one of these babies.
244, I think you are the person I need to be speaking to, maybe we can talk offline about a possible end of the year sale ... maybe one of these deals I can't refuse I've heard about. cough cough. 8)
- Shawn @ sonicweapon
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Not to take anything away from Rich and his deals, but have you looked at any of these presses up close and personal? Maybe changed a board, pushed a squeegee, or spun some heads and boards?
Also, if you want a really good deal, what about used? Rarely should you have to pay more than 60% of the new price for a like-new press.
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I used to print on a sidewinder, now I spin a cham 8/6 daily and run samples and production runs everyday all day.
I'd take the Cham 6/6 OR 8/6 and don't look back. You'll never outgrow the press, rather your shop will grow around it.
I personally own a Lawson HD max 6/4 and can print just the same as on the Cham, it just takes longer to setup the jobs and the micros are funky.
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We have both the Sidewinder and Vastex, both excellent presses. I use the Sidewinder for garments and Vastex for numbers and "Odd Stuff". There is nothing "cheap" about the Vastex and it is a good press, they just look like they are from the 1960's. The skate wheel is just a stoping or reference point for the pallets, not much different then the ball and spring on the Sidewinder. You could actually use either press with out them. It's actually the reg gate that counts
IMO the six color Sidewinder is the way to go for all day manual printing. It will hold reg even on a cold winter day pushing white poly. Again IMO the Chameleon is too heavy for all day use but the ability for extra colors is nice. Also consider the pallets and accessories are compatible with an auto if you ever upgrade.
Side clamps are a must, air clamps are nice. Once clamped as long as there are no leaks they will consume no air. You could use one of those portable air tanks you fill at the gas station or even a tire inflators to work the clamps and no chiller/dryer needed.
Like Frog said there are always ones on the used market at reasonable prices.
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Thanks for your replies, I agree, my main concern on top of quality of build and speed of setup (I plan on getting a tri-lock, I know Vastex has the VRS as well, same concept I realize) so thats something Else I like about the M&R w/ their quick release platens, I like the design. I have seen a few excellent deals as of late, I'm thinking of getting this one here in Pennsylvania for what looks like a damn steal, $6K for a 10/4 Chameleon w/ sideclamps and Airlocks.
This is a stupid good deal right? I'm trying to get my money together ASAP to see if I can maybe deal w/ this guy. What do you guys think? Im out in Kansas City and was thinking of flying out and driving it back, or Freighting it back.
http://scranton.craigslist.org/tls/3411710730.html (http://scranton.craigslist.org/tls/3411710730.html)
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Not to take anything away from Rich and his deals, but have you looked at any of these presses up close and personal? Maybe changed a board, pushed a squeegee, or spun some heads and boards?
Also, if you want a really good deal, what about used? Rarely should you have to pay more than 60% of the new price for a like-new press.
I have experience printing on an old harco Brown mfg press (build solid, very solid), a Riley International, a Riley Hopkins, A workhorse manual, and thats all. I was very attracted to the heads on the vastex, but heard they don't hold rollers very well should my shop ever carry them. I currently use square aluminum 20x24 frames for their ability to warp less, and low cost of getting me started. I use all meshes from 110-305 and am looking for something that could handle larger frames or heavier frames should I get them.
I am also curious about the short armed version of the Sidewinder, does the Chameleon also offer a short armed version for stations? I think I remember seeing that the shortarmed versions hold less weight than the longer standard stations correct?
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That's why the side clamps are nice, they will hold a bunch of different frames. I can fit up to 25x36 M3 rollers on the Sidewinder and have had 36x36 rollers on the Vastex with a little mod. All rear clamp presses will have trouble holding a roller frame.
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That's why the side clamps are nice, they will hold a bunch of different frames. I can fit up to 25x36 M3 rollers on the Sidewinder and have had 36x36 rollers on the Vastex with a little mod. All rear clamp presses will have trouble holding a roller frame.
Nice! Trust me, I had my mind set on the vastex due to its appearance and solid looks. its a total mental mind eff! I had also decided on the vastex because I liked their numbering system, but I actually would never ever want to do numbers, sounds like a huge pain in the ass to be honest. (not my idea of fun) The v2000hd is one of the best looking presses out there, and blue being my least favorite color, makes me put function over fashion when it came down to it. I hear i can set up a job, and leave it on the M&R's, and not have to worry about things breaking down or shifting during a run, not saying that would happen on a vastex at all, but it comes down to dependability and consistency in that dependability. when it times to go auto, I also love the idea of the platens being already setup for that. Is that an option on only the chameleon (to upgrade platens compatible with auto) or is that available on the sidewinder pallets too.
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...I have a Sidewinder and a Diamondback auto, so heres my take...
...Its sounds like you are starting out well, and if you have future plans to get an auto, get the Sidewinder or the Chameleon. The pallets, TriLoc and other accessories will then be interchangeable between your manual and auto. The Vastex is a great super-sturdy press, but the pallets are proprietary and they dont make an auto.
...I have run, at length, both a Chameleon and the Sidewinder. Both are top-notch presses. As said previously, I would consider side-clamps an absolute must. Air clamps make using the TriLoc 99% more effective, so again, if you plan on going auto, give this option very strong consideration. The Chameleon is almost overbuilt, and some complain of it being rather heavy for all-day use. I never really had a problem with it, and I used the 10-color duo-deck version with air. I bought a Sidewinder (4/4) because I needed a good second, small-run press.
...if you go with an air-clamp model (highly suggested), you can get a small portable air tank and run the air-clamps from that, as it doesnt consume much air. My tank is a small 5-gallon model, and i refill it once every coupla months.
...by the way, the one in the ad looks like a GREAT deal to me, for what you get. Id recommend an in-preson inspection first, but it sure looks clean.
...Good luck!! 8)
...if an auto is in the long-term plan, dont bother with the short-arm press, it will not accept the 23x31 screens your auto will require.
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Don't get your hopes up on that press in the add. Look at the post date, deals like that don't last too long and it is no longer listed on his web site.
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...this looks like the same press. Fairly recent on DS, but thats not to say it isnt sold....
http://www.digitsmith.com/m-r-chameleon-10-4-air-side-clamps-35662.html (http://www.digitsmith.com/m-r-chameleon-10-4-air-side-clamps-35662.html)
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Sidewinder 6/6, side clamps, air locks
Pancake compressor with inline filter for the locks and other misc stuff.
The Chameleon is not, imho a good production press. Probably great for sampling, too heavy for most for actual production. The inertia you get from production use of a 8 color chameleon loaded with roller frames is great enough to knock it out of reg and put the platens out of plane. Constant re-leveling of platens when we had an 8/8.
Don't plan on running a double deck chameleon for production and don't planning on upgrading either- the cost of the top deck is about what a used 10 or 14 station costs.
I would avoid the vastex. I've seen them in person and...meh.
I will say that I have an improved Anatol Thunder coming in a month or so. The model I have now is a no-go for roller frames but, presuming the re-design is successful, I would not hesitate to recommend that press. It's superior to all three you mentioned in design- it's lighter, has excellent micros, less platen deflection, four point platen leveling that stays put and nice, long screen clamps - but inferior to all three in overall quality of build and just about bottom of the barrel for service. But, if they get this press to handle M3 rollers it will be my favorite manual press design that's out there.
M&R would be my favorite manual but they have a 3 point micro that I dislike and 3 point platen leveling that I also dislike. These two designs waste too much time v. linear micros and four point leveling but others will disagree on that I'm sure.
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..the Anatol is also a good option, as they use the same pallet tooling as M&R. Boards will still be interchangeable, and Anatol also has their own auto presses.
...Zoo, doesnt the Thunder also have 3-point micro? Website shows it as such... :o
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..the Anatol is also a good option, as they use the same pallet tooling as M&R. Boards will still be interchangeable, and Anatol also has their own auto presses.
...Zoo, doesnt the Thunder also have 3-point micro? Website shows it as such... :o
I actually did some forum searching on people who had owned an anatol lightning and I saw too many people complaining about small parts or threads failing and didnt ever want to have to deal with stuff that would break that wouldnt on an M&R or something of that quality. I am attracted to anatol price but reputation isnt there for me atleast. Ive heard similar aout the brown mfg manuals having side clamp threads and knobs falling off, no thanks.
I try to do as much research as I can to be as best informed I can and all of your responses have me leaning back to the sidewinder which was my original choice.
I am willing to spend the money to avoid lost heads or downtime over unthought of possible issues so I like m&r on their proven reliability. Sidewinder is ehat Im thinking, either 6/4 or 6/6 w side clamps and airlocks.
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I think all micros are three point? The anatol has a linear adjustment unlike the x-y style on m&r, hopkins, workhorse where you get an arc.
I was referring to the brackets that you mount the platens to regarding four points. I think there might have been a thread on this somewhere where all these engineering level arguments where made for three point mounts but it's like night and day having four now, far superior.
Yes, it's true that Anatol has the issues described. it's perplexing though because so much of that is super basic. I don't know why they have not realized it's actually cheaper to just use decent quality small parts rather than service and replace crap ones. I didn't buy ours based on price so I could care less if the machine cost an extra grand if it meant they got it right... just seems like they are so close but can't get it.
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I loved my Vastex, though it was heavy and tiring on bigger orders. The micros on it are the best I have seen.
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It looks like you are set on M&R, great machines and great support.
But.......
If you did not already, check the Antec Legend in person. Try to spin it and try to set it up. You have to think about the long runs, turning the press after 6-7 hour runs is not easy. Legend is one of the lightest, if not the lightest turning press on the market with great micros.
Just saying :)
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I bought a used Chameleon and really like it over the HIX's I used to have , Really wish it had air clamps because it doesn't really work well with a triloc, and the screw down holders are a pain in the a$$ the threads bind up after a while with lint etc and need to be removed cleaned and replaced. Overall sturdy press.
P.S. not sure if your close to the Niagara Falls /Buffalo boarder but there is a Sidewinder and fusion for sale used listed up here I can send you the link they look pretty new.
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Not to take anything away from Rich and his deals, but have you looked at any of these presses up close and personal? Maybe changed a board, pushed a squeegee, or spun some heads and boards?
Also, if you want a really good deal, what about used? Rarely should you have to pay more than 60% of the new price for a like-new press.
Might of mentioned this elsewhere but I have a six color original Hopkins side clamp manual that just needs a little dusting off. Lightly used and built like a tank. 3 point micros and nylon bolt reg.
Should take rollers up to 23x 31. Pics later this week. Awesome press. I have two others in current daily use.
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It looks like you are set on M&R, great machines and great support.
But.......
If you did not already, check the Antec Legend in person. Try to spin it and try to set it up. You have to think about the long runs, turning the press after 6-7 hour runs is not easy. Legend is one of the lightest, if not the lightest turning press on the market with great micros.
Just saying :)
Agreed. If you're strictly a manual operation, Antec Legend is a number 1 contender. I print on one all day every day, and even though manual printing is tiring no matter what, I can't imagine spinning a heavier press.
With that being said, I have printed on a Sidewinder and really did love it. Great design, nice features and an awesome company backing the press. I printed on a 6/6 model with side clamps and it had M3 rollers in all the heads, so yeah, it was HEAVY to spin the heads, but I'm certain the M3's had something to do with that. I was, however, very impressed that the Sidewinder held the M3's without any issues. The table felt pretty heavy to spin as well, but since I was at a show when I saw it, they had the tri-loc set up, so I'm sure that added weight as well.
So although I do love the Legend, I think the Sidewinder is my favorite press out there. I'd like my next press to be a 6/4 sidewinder with airclamps. Pricy, but worth it in my opinion.
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So I think its now down to deciding which configuration, 6/6, or 6/4. I also love the antec legend, and hear that it is legendary for its solid registration, just not sure about boards compatible w/ other m&r equipment and the tri-loc system.
Can anyone give me their arguments on running a 6/6 vs a 6/4 for an all day operational manual shop (who hopefull plans to go auto from this making me enough to future upgrade)
I am sure there will be great reasons, I am told I would really only need the 4, but would the 6 stations, and extra cool down time really be that beneficial? Is the 2 extra boards really that much heavier?
What are your arguments on a 6 station vs 4 for all day usage.
- Shawn
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Have run and owned both I would go 6/6 the ladies that print for me on the Chameleon haven't complained or noticed a problem with weight. We have needed that configuration for a couple odd ball jobs where the spot needed to be somewhere other than straight across from the printer. I also think there is less movement needed and less of a push through to the next indent.
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Have run and owned both I would go 6/6 the ladies that print for me on the Chameleon haven't complained or noticed a problem with weight. We have needed that configuration for a couple odd ball jobs where the spot needed to be somewhere other than straight across from the printer. I also think there is less movement needed and less of a push through to the next indent.
so, you think a chameleon vs. a sidewinder then? hard to tell the way its worded.
'I also think theres less movement needed and less of a push through to the next index'
do you mean the Sidewinder vs. the Chameleon? (please clarify) Thanks!
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6 stations. More options for placement, more cool down time and yes, less travel to index.
We have our 6 setup so that you can run it in different configurations feeding either of two dryers with 4 stations available to flash at and three different locations you can print from. Wouldn't be able to do that with a 4 station.
You can always run a 6 as a 3 but running a 4 as a 2 is kinda silly.
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6 stations. More options for placement, more cool down time and yes, less travel to index.
We have our 6 setup so that you can run it in different configurations feeding either of two dryers with 4 stations available to flash at and three different locations you can print from. Wouldn't be able to do that with a 4 station.
You can always run a 6 as a 3 but running a 4 as a 2 is kinda silly.
That's the kind of advice I am talkin about! Efficiency is a huge thing to consider for me, as I'll be probably keeping my workhorse 4/1 for sampling or just for small simple jobs that don't require flashing, I like the way that sounds being able to feed two dryers.
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It looks like you are set on M&R, great machines and great support.
But.......
If you did not already, check the Antec Legend in person. Try to spin it and try to set it up. You have to think about the long runs, turning the press after 6-7 hour runs is not easy. Legend is one of the lightest, if not the lightest turning press on the market with great micros.
Just saying :)
Agreed. If you're strictly a manual operation, Antec Legend is a number 1 contender. I print on one all day every day, and even though manual printing is tiring no matter what, I can't imagine spinning a heavier press.
With that being said, I have printed on a Sidewinder and really did love it. Great design, nice features and an awesome company backing the press. I printed on a 6/6 model with side clamps and it had M3 rollers in all the heads, so yeah, it was HEAVY to spin the heads, but I'm certain the M3's had something to do with that. I was, however, very impressed that the Sidewinder held the M3's without any issues. The table felt pretty heavy to spin as well, but since I was at a show when I saw it, they had the tri-loc set up, so I'm sure that added weight as well.
So although I do love the Legend, I think the Sidewinder is my favorite press out there. I'd like my next press to be a 6/4 sidewinder with airclamps. Pricy, but worth it in my opinion.
Hello Nation 3
between antec and sidewinder which one has the best micros?
since setting screens up is a time consuming job
just curious
Gabe
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heres my take.. M/R is one great company and i love that chameleon.. never had a complaint from anyone male or female about running one. they also hold their value extreamly well. the antec on the other hand are much lighter(the micros work really really good once you get used to them) and hold super tight registration without alot of maintenace, pallet levelling etc. over all unless you have m/r autos or are planning on buying one(so everything like pallets and stuff are interchangable) i would recommend the antec. in a manual.
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It looks like you are set on M&R, great machines and great support.
But.......
If you did not already, check the Antec Legend in person. Try to spin it and try to set it up. You have to think about the long runs, turning the press after 6-7 hour runs is not easy. Legend is one of the lightest, if not the lightest turning press on the market with great micros.
Just saying :)
Agreed. If you're strictly a manual operation, Antec Legend is a number 1 contender. I print on one all day every day, and even though manual printing is tiring no matter what, I can't imagine spinning a heavier press.
With that being said, I have printed on a Sidewinder and really did love it. Great design, nice features and an awesome company backing the press. I printed on a 6/6 model with side clamps and it had M3 rollers in all the heads, so yeah, it was HEAVY to spin the heads, but I'm certain the M3's had something to do with that. I was, however, very impressed that the Sidewinder held the M3's without any issues. The table felt pretty heavy to spin as well, but since I was at a show when I saw it, they had the tri-loc set up, so I'm sure that added weight as well.
So although I do love the Legend, I think the Sidewinder is my favorite press out there. I'd like my next press to be a 6/4 sidewinder with airclamps. Pricy, but worth it in my opinion.
Hello Nation 3
between antec and sidewinder which one has the best micros?
since setting screens up is a time consuming job
just curious
Gabe
Antec micros are top notch. Zero play when turning them - You move them, the head moves with it, lock it down and there isn't any shifting. I didn't get a chance to tinker with the Sidewinder micros, but I've heard they aren't as slick as the Antec micros, but if you're getting a sidewinder with a tri-loc than your micro adjustments should be minimal anyway.
Like stated earlier, Antec Legend will hold perfect registration, with very little maintenance. Ours is old and needs to be calibrated, but it still holds registration.
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We don't print much manually, but I've never had a need for 6 stations and we do lots of oddball stuff on the manual, that's basically what it's there for, weird stuff. Maybe if we used it for more production type work I'd see needing 6 stations instead of 4, but we only use 3 stations max right now...print, flash, cool down. On longer runs I guess the extra cool down stations could be a benefit. But if it comes down to having to buy the lesser press and getting a 6/6, or getting the press you really want but only in the 6/4 combo, I'd go with the 6/4 any day of the week. But if your budget allows, and you think you'll benefit from the 2 extra stations then go for it. I'm not sure how much 2 more stations would cost, could be 600 just in adult, youth, and sleeve pallets for the extra 2 stations, plus whatever the manufacturer charges, which is probably 500 or more if I had to guess.
Just when you think buying a manual would be an easy decision, it's not. Not as tough as buying that first auto but it's still a weighty decision that can make a huge difference in your success.
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Keep in mind if you get a 6/4 now you can buy two additional pallet arms, pallets, etc later down the road. Its just a matter of where the arms are bolted. The 6/4 and 6/6 use the same structure just less two arms.
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I think I may be set on a 6/6 w/ side clamps and airlocks. Now to find the right dryer to accompany it, as my 18" vastex DriBox aint going to cut it for long.
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heres my take.. M/R is one great company and i love that chameleon.. never had a complaint from anyone male or female about running one. they also hold their value extreamly well. the antec on the other hand are much lighter(the micros work really really good once you get used to them) and hold super tight registration without alot of maintenace, pallet levelling etc. over all unless you have m/r autos or are planning on buying one(so everything like pallets and stuff are interchangable) i would recommend the antec. in a manual.
^^this is a real good point^^
If it's going to be awhile before you'll want/need/have an automatic (and don't overlook the fact that screen sizes, etc. vary wildly on auto presses and who knows which one you might install first) then an Antec with Newman manual rollers would probably be the best thing going- light and tight.
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Just when i thought i had a good starting selection of square aluminum 20x24 screens to get me by on most jobs I get a 600 piece order w 8 designs and 3-4 print locations on each and use almost all of em up on one job! Now i cant see that happening anytime in the near couple years involving newman frames, theyre like 3x the cost, for a young shop, thats a lot of money on other shop stuff I could use. I do understand the difference in what can be achieved with them however, once the manual pays for itself.
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Just when i thought i had a good starting selection of square aluminum 20x24 screens to get me by on most jobs I get a 600 piece order w 8 designs and 3-4 print locations on each and use almost all of em up on one job! Now i cant see that happening anytime in the near couple years involving newman frames, theyre like 3x the cost, for a young shop, thats a lot of money on other shop stuff I could use. I do understand the difference in what can be achieved with them however, once the manual pays for itself.
They'll pay for themselves pretty quick. Nothin' wrong at all with statics though.
Just look at your cost of remeshing (do you have to ship them to do this? add that cost in too.) and make the jump when it makes sense. I see big sets of those square bar MZX manual rollers for cheap, as in not much more than a static, quite often it seems. There is a learning curve but it is small and you can buy yer way out of it by getting mesh panels. Get the other critical stuff first though.
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Another thing that should be considered is that, all press features and and benefits of each manufacture, does not make up the importance of knowing and appreciating all the variables the goes into producing a quality print. Screen tension control being at the forefront.. A chameleon running on 16 newtons.. Achieving quality and efficiency in the print process should be a printer's ultimate goal. I know I was caught up too..
A more affordable press with retention-ables, high volume mesh with minimum thread thickness, tension meter, pre-registration tool, thickness guage, digital off contact guage, bi-axial squeeges, .01 gram scale, educating oneself on the whole process..
Sorry folks the whole "bloated but good if one can afford it" press on 16's struck a nerve.. If you're passing on retensionable screens for a not needed press then you're missing the point and it would cost you..
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Try to switch to Newmans if anyhow possible. I did it this Spring. I found used ones for around $20 each, and after spending few hours cleaning them, they look like brand new ones right now.
It is a night and day difference when using Newmans and it is really easy to print with them. I have print some jobs with them that I would not be able to do with the statics I had. I think that Newmans and Mesh Panels are pretty good combination (I do not like to mess with a bulk mesh).
Good luck
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heres my take.. M/R is one great company and i love that chameleon.. never had a complaint from anyone male or female about running one. they also hold their value extreamly well. the antec on the other hand are much lighter(the micros work really really good once you get used to them) and hold super tight registration without alot of maintenace, pallet levelling etc. over all unless you have m/r autos or are planning on buying one(so everything like pallets and stuff are interchangable) i would recommend the antec. in a manual.
^^this is a real good point^^
If it's going to be awhile before you'll want/need/have an automatic (and don't overlook the fact that screen sizes, etc. vary wildly on auto presses and who knows which one you might install first) then an Antec with Newman manual rollers would probably be the best thing going- light and tight.
Antec has pallet adapters for M&R pallets. I outfitted my 6/4 with them and they're nice. So I can slide on sleeve pallets or the 14" pallets off the auto as needed. Going to be selling off all my Antec pallets/brackets soon so I'll have less stuff laying around. I also picked bought two side clamp adapters from Antec. Very beefy and nice, but I need a couple more springs to hold the head up with an M3 in it. I'm going to call Dave and give him a hard time about it. You'd think that would be included in the kit to switch to side clamps.
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Although this is a perennial topic, and I agree Newmans are great, don't beat yourself up. If you fully comprehend ALL the basics, you will blow away half the people using rollers.
Which is the most important factor in screen printing? All of them.
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Have run and owned both I would go 6/6 the ladies that print for me on the Chameleon haven't complained or noticed a problem with weight. We have needed that configuration for a couple odd ball jobs where the spot needed to be somewhere other than straight across from the printer. I also think there is less movement needed and less of a push through to the next indent.
so, you think a chameleon vs. a sidewinder then? hard to tell the way its worded.
'I also think theres less movement needed and less of a push through to the next index'
do you mean the Sidewinder vs. the Chameleon? (please clarify) Thanks!
Sorry meant 4/6 and 6/6 not chameleon and sidewinder. I have used HIX premier machines both 6/6 and 4/6 that were good in the day but the Chameleon is better( 6/6). I also have a sports man so the interchangeable thing helps with less shirt boards. The distance to spin is shorter . Only regret is no air clamps on manual would really help with TRILOC .
On a side note I put off getting the TRILOC for a number of years but decided to get one and am really loving it for setups.
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All this positive talk makes me go take a look at an antec legend which is listed locally
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I think the antec legend is equally as attractive, def. looks light, but its just there's so little info on the manufacturer's site. Why do they all do such a terrible job of showing their products, or putting decent video demo's out. I swear Vastex is one of the few who do this 'okay' but even they could do better. I really was into how the Vastex heads have left to right off contact angle adjustments, as well as front to back pitch adjustment. Does the sidewinder also have this?
Also, the Riley International heads seem to be some of the best designed heads or micro's I've seen, which look very similar to the sidewinders.
Does anyone know if the V2000HD heads are any different than in this video here?
Like Alan Johnston pointed out, this is a huge decision, pricing is having me leaning back towards vastex for the money, especially after seeing that M&R's warranty is only 2 years to Vastex's 25 Years? What gives?
http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=TRgPxcbrcuQ&feature=youtube_gdata (http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=TRgPxcbrcuQ&feature=youtube_gdata) (heads on V2000HD I was curious if are most recent revision or version of)
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There's two different heads on the Vastex, old and new style. Essentially the same, new are a little beefier and larger knobs.
Left and right off contact no big deal. You can do the same with any press using shims. But if everything is level should have no need for it.
A WELL BUILT manual needs no warranty, nothing really to ware out. Less then a little oil/grease, cleaning and an occasional adjustment you should be good for years of service. Any mentioned in this thread are good presses. My Sidewinder is six years old, we are the second owner and works flawlessly. The Vastex came with a shop we bought out, 12 years old. It has been through a fire, abandoned in an old building and has been moved to different locations at least four times. The only thing we have done to it is upgrade to the newer style heads only because they came with the DiGit system we purchased. I still have the old heads and just trying to think of something to build out of them.
Find a dealer or local guy or a upcoming show and take one for a test drive.
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Left and right off contact no big deal. You can do the same with any press using shims. But if everything is level should have no need for it.
Nailed it. Use flat screens. Parallel your press and maintain in that way. In my shop I have a "flatness standard" (expo glass) and the roller master and all screens are flat to it, press is paralleled to it. If you load a screen and something is off you stop and re-calibrate the press until you are back in tolerance. Therefore, a far more important feature is the ability to adjust the plane or "level" of your platens to your print heads.
Off contact adjustments should not be a part of a manual print head. They are unneeded fail points that only frustrate your ability to do quick setups and weaken an otherwise robust print head.
I've ran a: Rototex, Hopkins, Chameleon, Thunder and the only press that didn't go out of adjustment on the o.c. "camber" adjustment specifically was the Rototex b/c it didn't have it. There is too much force there, especially with larger/heavier frames loaded, to hold that adjustment consistently, or at least too much force for all the designs I've seen to do it. I think you could pull it off with a super robust back head assembly and maybe a click style system but central o.c. would make far more sense at that point.
Manuals should either have a metered shim system that you use under the screen, above the clamp or central o.c. In fact, central o.c. would be an immense benefit on a manual and not a difficult option to add, too bad nobody does it. That and an auto indexer, but I digress.
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an auto indexer would rule, hah, have never seen one of those on a manual. Could be awesome for someone to build a base like the auto flashes that rotate and spin into place that you just slide any top of a mobile flash unit into and configure for balancing, etc... instead of having to buy a proprietary flash thats just super expsensive because it does a 90 degree rotation w/ a servo .. good idea though.
after also realizing a try-lock costs $2500, i'm kinda leaning back towards vastex, not because of quality or anything, but getting more for my money ... I mean, Vastex's VRS is around $975, yes, they don't have airlocks (this may be the decider, and tri-lock apparently only works best w/ the airlocks) ... so it's a tough call still. $2500 for trilock is kinda absurd, its 2 right angles!
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I bought the vastex VRS with our manual press to work on our auto and it did not perform near as well as the triloc did. We have modified our triloc but when we used it as suggested it worked great, and the VRS never got one job done without doing micro work. I do think the regi systems are overpriced from a raw materials standpoint, but what they can potentially do for you can hardly be compared to a $2500 investment. There are few investments in the $2500 range that can give you the ROI the triloc can give you. Only the dip tank in our shop has given us such a quick ROI.
Maybe the VRS in conjunction with their press works great, but we didn't have the results with it and I modified it and cut it to pieces trying to get it to work like I wanted. I can see a few things about it that would cause it to not work properly compared to the triloc and through my years of trying to build a regi system I've found it's the little minute details that matter most with them. The stop blocks touching the frame at the corners is superior in my opinion to touching somewhere along the middle of the frame.
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Thanks for chiming in Alan, always great to hear from someone first hand who's used both. Holy crap is this a tough decision ;)
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I have seen up close and personal one indexer system for a manual. It was nice but cost prohibitive to produce and as far as I know the idea was scrapped. Something I have been toying with myself.
The flash on my Sidewinder is a true auto, when the pallets are rotated the flash automatically swivels over the pallet then back out of the way after a preset time.
Like Alen said I personally think the cost is a bit much but in the grand scheme of things worth every penny. If you spend an hour jerking around trying to register a three color job for 24 pieces you basically are loosing money on the job. Do this a couple times a week and shortly the cost of the system will be seem petty.
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I'd like to thank everyone for all of their great feedback and how considerate it has been. It's hard to find this detailed info without asking those who already own or have experience on them, without getting a sales pitch, or wrustling some feathers of owners who own each of these brands I've been so heavily analyzing (M&R, Vastex, Antec) ... Refreshing to get that kind of stuff from here.
I am thinking most likely M&R is my way to go, it seems everyone has a pretty strong opinion that although Vastex makes a solid press, if I plan to ever go auto, makes more sense to already own the associated boards and reg system thats proven across manual and auto w/ the M&R system.
Now to save up that extra $$ to be able to try and get all these wanted features from the outset, new and working well, instead of upgrading after machines begun to take on wear or jobs that may shift callibration, I'd like to have airlocks and sideclamps up front instead of down the road.
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I'd like to thank everyone for all of their great feedback and how considerate it has been. It's hard to find this detailed info without asking those who already own or have experience on them, without getting a sales pitch, or wrustling some feathers of owners who own each of these brands I've been so heavily analyzing (M&R, Vastex, Antec) ... Refreshing to get that kind of stuff from here.
I am thinking most likely M&R is my way to go, it seems everyone has a pretty strong opinion that although Vastex makes a solid press, if I plan to ever go auto, makes more sense to already own the associated boards and reg system thats proven across manual and auto w/ the M&R system.
Now to save up that extra $$ to be able to try and get all these wanted features from the outset, new and working well, instead of upgrading after machines begun to take on wear or jobs that may shift callibration, I'd like to have airlocks and sideclamps up front instead of down the road.
Save the money get the options up front extra arms and platens after the fact cost a lot, For example adding air clamps to a 6 head chameleon is north of $3000.00 plus shipping your time to install etc..
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Thanks man, this being the first thing in my life I have ever purchased new, we will be splurging on the sideclamps and airlocks, and we sont even really feel any buyers remorse yet as every printer weve told so far has said best decision we could make and we would never look back. Plus resale value holds so well on these m&r presses Ive got no worries!
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an auto indexer would rule, hah, have never seen one of those on a manual. Could be awesome for someone to build a base like the auto flashes that rotate and spin into place that you just slide any top of a mobile flash unit into and configure for balancing, etc... instead of having to buy a proprietary flash thats just super expsensive because it does a 90 degree rotation w/ a servo .. good idea though.
after also realizing a try-lock costs $2500, i'm kinda leaning back towards vastex, not because of quality or anything, but getting more for my money ... I mean, Vastex's VRS is around $975, yes, they don't have airlocks (this may be the decider, and tri-lock apparently only works best w/ the airlocks) ... so it's a tough call still. $2500 for trilock is kinda absurd, its 2 right angles!
ok. the shear craftmanship of the tri- lock is superior. the registration pallet is very nice. you have another piece that goes on the glass of you exposure unit and it works. no comparison to the vastex. i think that point should motivate you MORE toward m/r. you have it backwards. your getting much more for your money with m/r. besides trilock technology your getting a press with much better pallets, micros. all that adds up to faster production, faster set-up. i would say thats more for your money..
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an auto indexer would rule, hah, have never seen one of those on a manual. Could be awesome for someone to build a base like the auto flashes that rotate and spin into place that you just slide any top of a mobile flash unit into and configure for balancing, etc... instead of having to buy a proprietary flash thats just super expsensive because it does a 90 degree rotation w/ a servo .. good idea though.
after also realizing a try-lock costs $2500, i'm kinda leaning back towards vastex, not because of quality or anything, but getting more for my money ... I mean, Vastex's VRS is around $975, yes, they don't have airlocks (this may be the decider, and tri-lock apparently only works best w/ the airlocks) ... so it's a tough call still. $2500 for trilock is kinda absurd, its 2 right angles!
ok. the shear craftmanship of the tri- lock is superior. the registration pallet is very nice. you have another piece that goes on the glass of you exposure unit and it works. no comparison to the vastex. i think that point should motivate you MORE toward m/r. you have it backwards. your getting much more for your money with m/r. besides trilock technology your getting a press with much better pallets, micros. all that adds up to faster production, faster set-up. i would say thats more for your money..
no doubt!
We purchased our Sidewinder 6/6 w/ sideclamps and airlocks today. Going to be about 7 weeks on the lead time for the delivery but holy crap are we excited! All of your input was greatly appreciated and weighed heavily on our final decision. It came down to all the reasons you all pointed out already, solid construction, solid customer service, pallet design modularity (going from a manual to an auto down the road AND the fact that theres a higher chance to find better deals on M&R press accessories than the Vastex equipment since there are not as many Vastex in the field as M&R), the micro design, it has sideclamps, it has airlocks, it can be used w/ the tri-lock system (superior to the vastex, and able to be used on manual, and the auto once we reach that bridge), it is made in the USA, if a small part has an issue I can get it in the USA from Grainger most likely if not directly from M&R, who uses parts made in the USA, this may not be able to be said about Anatol, Vastex, or Antec) oh, and the end of the year deal they were running on manual presses giving away free sideclamps! (had to pay full price for airlocks though).
All in all, we can't really find any negatives, our next move is upgrading our dryer now, and that will most likely end up being a 30" Belt (24" element) - Vastex DB-30 (120V) to run in the basement for now. Can't wait for this press to arrive, time to start doing some cleaning and re-arranging the shop layout, which I love doing!
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I try not to weigh in on these things but Sonic, well.................ya did good there
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I try not to weigh in on these things but Sonic, well.................ya did good there
yep. now buy a real dryer also. i heard m/r has a few that will match your press.believe me a miss matched shop of equipment can be distracting. seriously,a m/r fusion will be a great fit.
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For the triloc I would just start using the new press and keep an eye the sales boards Digitsmith etc. , I picked up basically a new one for $1000 and really like it. have been using it more and more.
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I try not to weigh in on these things but Sonic, well.................ya did good there
yep. now buy a real dryer also. i heard m/r has a few that will match your press.believe me a miss matched shop of equipment can be distracting. seriously,a m/r fusion will be a great fit.
I agree. To clarify, i work out of my home basement currently. Its more about my restrictions of my power being 120 unless I dont know othwerwise and there arent many 120v dryers out there in my 2-3K budget. M&r dryer will be what i get eventually and probably gas but like i said, options are pretty limited, and m&r doesnt make 120v dryers (they told me its unsafe to run a 120 dryer out of my house w a flash at same time) so yeah, im still in research phase of that option.