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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Rockers on January 12, 2014, 09:45:54 PM
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We bought recently some Newman flash panels for or 23x31 frames. The panels are marked as 23x31 but don`t fit. Too short. Can someone who uses the same size of panels please give the the dimensions of them so I can complain by showing the vendor the difference in size.
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Well here we go they are M3 panels but were sold to us as compatible with MZX frames of the same size. As a matter of fact the vendors webpage states that M3 panels are compatible with MZX frames of the same size. Now I figured out that the M3 and MX frames have different frame tube diameters so of course the M3 panels will be too short. Wish I had thought about it before we bought them. But still as the vendor confirmed before we made the purchase that they will fit I should be able to get replacements for the MZX frames.
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Seems a bit odd to me as most nearly every screen in my shop is a 23x31 mzx and over 80% of those have newman "m3 flash" panels in them. We've never had any issues like your describing and we've installed over 300 flash panels. What are the dimensions of your panels and I will compare to one of ours. The difference in roller diameter between the m3 and mzx ive never seen matter with panels as we've used "m3" panels on our mzx frames from almost all manf. Your panels might have just been manf. wrong.
Danny
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Thanks. Well they measure 72 cm , which is 28.34 inches from end to end of the locking bars.
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Then they are most likely for the 23x28 MZX frame. Does one end have a longer locking strip.
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Way back in the day when I didn't have a clue about mzx and m3's I bought mzx panels and used them in m3 roller frames. I've used the panels quite a bit over the years and have never had one not fit. The newman panels I bought a while back were the 102N and at that time were only supposed to be dyed mesh and white 102 supposedly didn't exist but my panels were white. And 3 of the 4 busted on the first retension about 10 newtons shy of max, so I've never bought any more newman panels. The one that didn't bust survived only because I never retensioned it. So I've got a 102N in production that is at about 25 newtons and it isn't good for much but I am not about to bust one.
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So I went and measured one of our panels and they are right around 28.5" long so I assume these are the same exact size you have. I really cannot wrap my head around why they won't work since they are within that spec. We just stretched up 12 new mzx frames today with newman flash panels. Something seems odd..... LOL, wish I could help figure it out as this is making me scratch my head!
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MZX and M3 Panels are different sizes
The supplier should NOT be telling people they work in both frames.
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Bar lengths are different. I found that out the hard way.
MZX panel will no fit on M3.
Not sure about the other way around but doubt it.
Shane
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Bar lengths are different. I found that out the hard way.
MZX panel will no fit on M3.
Not sure about the other way around but doubt it.
Shane
I screwed up and bought MZX panels and they went right in the M3's and they are all still in production. Unless my supplier has them labeled wrong on their website and the invoices were all wrong and they actually sent M3 panels, then they worked on about 40 M3 frames. The majority of them went on the older style M3's, first generation with the narrow roller nuts, but still same size roller. I'm 98% sure that they are even stamped MZX in the corner. Will someone check their panels and see if they stamp them? I'm sure ours have worn off by now but I seem to remember that.
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MZX and M3 Panels are different sizes
The supplier should NOT be telling people they work in both frames.
That`s my thought too. Due to the difference in tube diameter there will be more distance from channel to channel on the MZX compared to the M3 frames. I measured it and it`s over 1 cm difference between both frame types. Accordingly the panels would have to be at least 1 cm longer too. And as a matter of fact I found our last M3 frame that still got a flash panel on it and took it off. So that panel is almost 2 cm longer unless that is caused by the stretching of the mesh;) Anyway, I`ve emailed the guys at Newman to see what they have to say about it. Will be back once I got a reply.
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Attached is photo of one of our panels..... I do not even own an m3 frame, as 100% of my frames are mzx..... These are the panels that we run with out mzx frames which have an "m3" stamped in the corner of them.... I have over 250 screens in circulation right now and almost every one has one of those "m3" panels in it....... Seems crazy that I have used m3 panels this entire time with no issues ever......
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Well honestly I do not understand it either. But I can pull on the panel as much as I like it will not reach the opposite end of the frame to lock it in. It`s just too short.
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Now checked the Shur-loc website to see if they offer different panels for M3 and MZX frames and they do indeed. I would be very surprised if they would do that just for fun without their being a proper reason for it.
Anyway here are 2 photos of me trying to install those panels.
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Now we have received replacement panels from our Vendor in the States, I have to say very good service as they have send them by UPS 2 day service. Anyway the new panels still don`t fit our MZX frames which are 23x31, so the same size as our M3 frames. Now I spoke as well to my contact at Stretchdevices and they confirmed that the M3 panels should fit the MZX frames. Now I`m stuck with all those panels and still have no clue why they don`t fit. They fit in our M3 frames. unless the MZX frames are manufactured wrong I can`t see what the problem is.
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MZX and M3 Panels are different sizes
The supplier should NOT be telling people they work in both frames.
Not according to the guys at Stretchdevices, but I would have thought so too that they are different size.
Anyway I have measured again the distance in between the rollers of both our frame types.
M3 27.75 inches
MZX 28.15 inches
That measured between the rollers, so we have a difference of 0.4 inches.
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I went through this a while ago as well.
Used to always use the Newman mesh by the yard and would cut (rip) and stretch manually.
I tried the Shur-loc panels and never looked back (8 -10 years)...until I saw the Newman mesh was available in panels.
I went the the distributors site and wanted the 23x31 mzx panels but didn't see them available, only the M3's.
I asked them about the availability of the mzx and they told me the same thing as the OP, that they would fit.
I disputed this with the distributor and received a reply from Don Newman (Stretch Devices).
He ensured me that they would fit.
One thing I saw that was different in the information he sent me to what I have found in my shop is that he stated the MZX and the M3 UL were compatible. I don't have any M3 UL frames to compare them with, just the older heavy duty M3's.
I will have to try the Newman panels in an mzx here and see what I find.
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Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.
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Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.
I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375"). The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.
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quote author=pwalsh link=topic=10581.msg102753#msg102753 date=1390583085]
Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.
I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375"). The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.
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I'm not really sure how this is can be debated since we have a very well respected shop owner saying he's put M3 Newman Flash Panels into over 300 MZX frames without issue, and I have done the opposite and put Shurloc (sefar/saati mesh) MZX panels into M3 frames at least 25+ times. So I guess the impossible has become possible or someone has really screwed something up somewhere along the way. We've bought panels from GSG and straight from Shurloc and I know the panels from Shurloc were M3's going into M3 frames, but the GSG bought panels were MZX panels made by Shurloc with Sefar or Saati mesh. Those are the facts with two shops, but Rockers has tried the same scenario that Danny has done over 300 times and now all of a sudden it's not working. That tells me that a recent change has occurred with manufacturing because I know that Danny is not mistaken and I'm also 100% sure we've put panels that were labeled "MZX" in the corner into the older and newer style M3 frames. So what was impossible in the past was actually possible but has now become impossible...possibly?
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I need to do some digging through my email as I'm almost positive(not totally sure so don't hold me to it until I find the email) but I had some pretty lengthy conversations with Don Newman himself regarding all this and I'm fairly confident he told me himself m3 panels will be fine in mzx frames and vice versa. I have ordered newman "flash" panels straight from Don, as well as through other vendors and they always come to me labeled m3 for use in my mzx frames. I have over 300 of these mzx frames in my shop - both older blue coated ones as well as ultralight silver ones and NEVER have I had an issue putting "m3" panels into an mzx frame. Every single print that I post in the "whats been printed lately" thread was done w/ mzx frames using m3 panels so there has to be something that changed w/ manufacturing or I've been a lucky man getting away with it this entire time. LOL
If you guys want, I'd be more then willing to post a video of me snapping an m3 panel into one of my mzx frames...... Not sure what that would really prove other then the fact we use m3 panels in mzx frames but maybe someone cares to see that it works for us???
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I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375"). The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.
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I'm not really sure how this is can be debated since we have a very well respected shop owner saying he's put M3 Newman Flash Panels into over 300 MZX frames without issue, and I have done the opposite and put Shurloc (sefar/saati mesh) MZX panels into M3 frames at least 25+ times. So I guess the impossible has become possible or someone has really screwed something up somewhere along the way. We've bought panels from GSG and straight from Shurloc and I know the panels from Shurloc were M3's going into M3 frames, but the GSG bought panels were MZX panels made by Shurloc with Sefar or Saati mesh. Those are the facts with two shops, but Rockers has tried the same scenario that Danny has done over 300 times and now all of a sudden it's not working. That tells me that a recent change has occurred with manufacturing because I know that Danny is not mistaken and I'm also 100% sure we've put panels that were labeled "MZX" in the corner into the older and newer style M3 frames. So what was impossible in the past was actually possible but has now become impossible...possibly?
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Alan: I have zero motivation (or interest) in debating your post, or the information posted by Danny. If you and he have been successful in interchanging mesh panels that were specifically designed for Newman M3 frames between M3 and MZX frames, I'm happy for you. I trust your assurances that interchanging the different panels between the different frame profiles works just fine.
With that said I place a lot of credence in this subject with the experience of the folks at Shurloc. I also know that the Stretch Devices website states that there are different panels designed for the M3 and MZX fames, and that the different roller diameters guarantees that there will be a different distance between the channels on a M3 and a MZX profile frame.
But if it's working for you then all is well with the world. Keep calm and print on! :)
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Me as the original "owner" of this post would like to contribute as well a little more to it now. So it makes perfectly sense to me to fit a MZX panel into a M3 frame as according to my findings and understanding of this matter should be a little bigger then M3 panels. So of course they should fit in a M3 frame. The other way round I still doubt it but then I can`t say for sure as others here have had success in doing so. I spoke to the guys at Stretchdevices as we normally buy all our mesh and frames directly of them and they told me as well the M3 panels should fit and were designed to fit both frame types. Still don`t understand how though. The distance between the rollers is different so how can the same panel fit in both frames.
Now Stretchdevices offered us to give us another 10 panels free of charge if we pay the shipping. If they don`t fit either then we will have 26 panels that don`t fit. They never took me up on the suggestion me sending them one of our MZX frames plus one of the panels so they can check for themselves,as they have manufactured both products it should be a breeze for them to figure out why they don`t fit. Options are, either they panels are wrong and the supplier we bought them from this time is sitting on a whole bunch of them or the frames were done wrong back then.
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Rockers, if your interested you can send me a frame and panel so I can compare to what we've got here. Email me(danny@usrecognition.com) and I will send you my shop addy. I'll compare to our stuff then ship it back your way, let me know if your interested that way we can figure out how your panels are comparing to ours.
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Rockers, if your interested you can send me a frame and panel so I can compare to what we've got here. Email me(danny@usrecognition.com) and I will send you my shop addy. I'll compare to our stuff then ship it back your way, let me know if your interested that way we can figure out how your panels are comparing to ours.
That would be great, just be aware we are located in Japan;)
But I might take you up on the offer if I don`t get anywhere with Stretchdevices.
By the way they have emailed me sizes of flash panels they have in stock and they measure as followed.
71.75 - 72.39 cm
Well now with our MZX frames being 72 cm from channel to channel I can`t see how the ones that are 71.75 fit. Our flash panels are shorter then those they got in stock.
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Something that isn't being mentioned is that there are multiple shapes for the Newman Flash Panels. Stretch requested that the fabrics all be brought up to 45N and that requires a different size and shape for each mesh. Some similar meshes like the N102 and N115 are done on the same shape, but when you venture out to an N300 the physical shape of the mesh changes greatly. The pre-softening, deflection and tension levels of the M3 panels are designed for use on only the M3 frames and corners.
That said, if you have one of the larger shapes that will actually reach the rollers of an MZX, you can certainly stretch it, but it won't give you the results that a properly sized panel would. If you wanted to kick me over an email Matthias, I'd love to share a bit more about the NFP with you and if I can get some added details from you I can see if the will work in house and let you know.
Thanks - Ron
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Something that isn't being mentioned is that there are multiple shapes for the Newman Flash Panels. Stretch requested that the fabrics all be brought up to 45N and that requires a different size and shape for each mesh. Some similar meshes like the N102 and N115 are done on the same shape, but when you venture out to an N300 the physical shape of the mesh changes greatly. The pre-softening, deflection and tension levels of the M3 panels are designed for use on only the M3 frames and corners.
That said, if you have one of the larger shapes that will actually reach the rollers of an MZX, you can certainly stretch it, but it won't give you the results that a properly sized panel would. If you wanted to kick me over an email Matthias, I'd love to share a bit more about the NFP with you and if I can get some added details from you I can see if the will work in house and let you know.
Thanks - Ron
Sounds great. I will email you in the next few days Ron. I spoke to the guys at Stretchdevices last week and they still insist that the panels will fit both the M3 and MZX frames. Well I have not shared with them yet that they hardly fit the M3 frames. Unless I keep the locking bars in the channels with tape they will fall out as they seem to be that little bit short. We used to have 128N panels and there was no issue at all.
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Listen to what Ron is saying. I agree that yes, they will fit. But you will not get the optimal results if you are using the wrong profile. Personally, I love them and can't imagine not having them. 500 plus screens in my shop, with mesh counts from 26 to 355, and EVERY one is a Shur-Loc panel. But that's just part of my system. They are a perfect fit IN MY SHOP.
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Listen to what Ron is saying. I agree that yes, they will fit. But you will not get the optimal results if you are using the wrong profile. Personally, I love them and can't imagine not having them. 500 plus screens in my shop, with mesh counts from 26 to 355, and EVERY one is a Shur-Loc panel. But that's just part of my system. They are a perfect fit IN MY SHOP.
Bimmridder are you using the Newmans or reg if so do you prefer say Sefar over the others. Just curious on my part.
Shane
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Just to follow up on this tread...
I just installed a Newman panel N300 mesh 23 x 31 for M3 into an MZX frame.
I ran into the same issue as the pictures that were posted with the mesh not reaching end to end.
In order for the panel to be put in place I had to turn the rollers inward so that the channels were facing directly into the center of the frame. I normally start with the rollers in a similar position as in the pictures posted earlier in the thread.
I was then able to get the mesh in place and stretched it to a quick 32 newtons. I am not sure how far the roller will be turned when they are at a work hardened state, but as of right now it is not a lot.
I will post again when re stretched with details of my findings.
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Just to follow up on this tread...
I just installed a Newman panel N300 mesh 23 x 31 for M3 into an MZX frame.
I ran into the same issue as the pictures that were posted with the mesh not reaching end to end.
In order for the panel to be put in place I had to turn the rollers inward so that the channels were facing directly into the center of the frame. I normally start with the rollers in a similar position as in the pictures posted earlier in the thread.
I was then able to get the mesh in place and stretched it to a quick 32 newtons. I am not sure how far the roller will be turned when they are at a work hardened state, but as of right now it is not a lot.
I will post again when re stretched with details of my findings.
Tried that too, still it does not fit.
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Someone may have goofed but the panels are made from a jig so size shouldn't be wrong. Just a FYI even the Newman panels are made by Shurloc.