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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Mr Tees!! on January 27, 2014, 12:44:10 PM
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...Just wondering what everyone uses for their last reclaim step. We have used Easiway 701 and ICC 858. Looking for a one-step answer following emulsion removal, when using a dip-tank type system. Any suggestions?
...and no, Sonny, I cant wait for your "game-changer"...
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...Just wondering what everyone uses for their last reclaim step. We have used Easiway 701 and ICC 858. Looking for a one-step answer prior to emulsion removal, when using a dip-tank type system. Any suggestions?
...and no, Sonny, I cant wait for your "game-changer"...
No problem. As a tide over material I can suggest Xenon F.S.I.C. :) :)
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Prior to emulsion remover?
The only time I ever heard of degreasing at this point is/was when something a little "oily" like mineral spirits was used as an ink cleaner seemed to leave a film that hindered the action of the emulsion remover.
Many report no need for degreasing (as the last step). They, I believe tend to be the ones using ink degradents like 701 that also help set the proper ph, another major reason for degreasing.
As for haze removal, I swear by CCI Liquid Renuit, keeping in mind that though not a super nasty butt kicker like Autohaze, it is still an alkaline solution that can damage mesh if left on too long.
It also serves as a "degreaser"
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....edited OP to ask the actual question that I had in my head, not the one I had in my fingers. Thanks for that Frog! ;)
...Yes, after stencil removal, as the last step before drying and coating. Something that accomplishes the same task as 70 essentially, but just wondering if anyone uses anything different, and why.
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Well, all but my first two sentences may still be relevant.
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CCI Envirohaze is what i like.
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liquid envirohaze
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...Okay, you guys using Envirohaze...are you using that everytime as your final step? I kinda thought that was for tough-stain removal on an as-needed basis, as opposed to using it every time.
...thanks!
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We like the Saati IR- 18, does a nice job and economical.
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We only dehaze the really bad ones, we use a degreaser on all, and end with a prep. Coats as smooth as a baby's you know what...
Steve
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We degrease after every blowout..... ;) Believe it or not for the first couple of years we would just put a drop of Dawn dish soap on a scrub pad and go to town. One drop was more than enough for 1-2 screens per scrub. That was on 23x31's. Worked just as well if not better than commercial degreasers. I only switched when we ran out because I did not have time to run out and get more and my supply rep was right there. It is one of those things that the chem companies dont want you to know.
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I meant Liquid ReNuIt…. long day guys… long day….
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...Just wondering what everyone uses for their last reclaim step. We have used Easiway 701 and ICC 858. Looking for a one-step answer following emulsion removal, when using a dip-tank type system. Any suggestions?
...and no, Sonny, I cant wait for your "game-changer"...
Mr. Tees, why are you looking for something different? What are you trying to achieve? Cost, performance?
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We use franmar D-haze for everyday use, and we have some tougher Pregan-Paste type stuff for bad stains as we print a lot of solvent based and epoxy inks.
We never user degreaser, just a good rinse after d-haze.
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We use franmar D-haze for everyday use, and we have some tougher Pregan-Paste type stuff for bad stains as we print a lot of solvent based and epoxy inks.
We never user degreaser, just a good rinse after d-haze.
Same here, except I have nothing stronger than the D-Haze.
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i am currently carding off ink (or rinsing if discharge/waterbased), putting in the diptank (easiway supra), pressure wash off, scrub on 701, soft rinse, dry. 2 steps, only one scrub. I have yet to have a problem with stencil breakdown or exposure issues. That said, I still see ghosts and some stains make it through the process (usually blues or some discharge screens used on long runs). I have been using the murakami 700 haze remover when needed, but that is a long and nasty process. I was thinking of trying out d-haze and envirohaze soon to see if they work better than the 701. Has anyone used these and the 701 in a similar process and seen markedly better results?
I stopped degreasing when I started using the dip tank. Been awesome!
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701 only for dehaze and then a thorough rinse. Easiway Screen Perfect on 230 mesh and higher, otherwise no degreaser.
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we had a rep from ICC come in a couple weeks ago, left me with a bottle of a paste like product. Citrus base, smells like cherries. You put a small blob on your scrubby pad, "just one dab", do the whole screen front back, sides of the frame, go to a second frame, hit it with the sprayer, I haven't seen anything work this good after using all of the sprays from 701, to Ikistickunstuck, korchem, and the list goes on. It's like $30 bucks a gallon. I think it was a pint sample he left us, we dehazed/degreased about 150 or so screens with the stuff. ZERO fisheye in any of the frames. I'm switching us over to it vs all the spray stuff, the cost is way lower. Nothing atomized from a spray bottle or sprayer to breathe in, or get on your skin. I did about 60 of those screens myself to see how it went, you actually move through the process faster. I'm really impressed with it. It's called 858 degreaser and dehazer. See if you can get a sample and give it a try.
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I ran out of my usual stuff (imagemate 660 and 260--apparently no one uses this) and 2 weeks ago i had to use this 701 i had here...wow. Never seen such a horrible chemical. It left all of our screens looking like they'd been shot with a shotgun of emulsion remover as the emulsion was drying lol....i poured out the bottle in the sink and it literally floated up on the surface of the water like oil. i thought this was a horrible chemical personally...
AND that ICC man came in and give me the whole demo on everything as well...I do love that 626 (i think it is, on-press screenwash) and the cherry stuff 858. I ended up going thru the quart of that he left. Bought a gallon since it was so amazing! Then my screens started popping and letting go...turns out if you get this stuff on the actual 'glued' part of the screen on the back, it just sits there and seperates the glue from what i was told. I immediately stopped using it after 15 screens or so died. Contacted the company and no one would return my emails, nor would that rep that came in... so ive still got half a gallon of the sweetest smelling chemical known to man that i cant use...its too bad, i loved that stuff...it cleaned anything from anything!
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we had a rep from ICC come in a couple weeks ago, left me with a bottle of a paste like product. Citrus base, smells like cherries. You put a small blob on your scrubby pad, "just one dab", do the whole screen front back, sides of the frame, go to a second frame, hit it with the sprayer, I haven't seen anything work this good after using all of the sprays from 701, to Ikistickunstuck, korchem, and the list goes on. It's like $30 bucks a gallon. I think it was a pint sample he left us, we dehazed/degreased about 150 or so screens with the stuff. ZERO fisheye in any of the frames. I'm switching us over to it vs all the spray stuff, the cost is way lower. Nothing atomized from a spray bottle or sprayer to breathe in, or get on your skin. I did about 60 of those screens myself to see how it went, you actually move through the process faster. I'm really impressed with it. It's called 858 degreaser and dehazer. See if you can get a sample and give it a try.
This is the pink stuff. I used it for a while and its garbage at dehazing. Great degreaser but it cant even clear basic ink stains off the mesh...
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This is the pink stuff. I used it for a while and its garbage at dehazing. Great degreaser but it cant even clear basic ink stains off the mesh...
"The Pink Stuff" may be different than what they are talking about. Who knows? If we are talking about CCI (not ICC) there are at least 20 different stain/haze removers from them. All of which have the same description on their website.
Which is the same with all of their products. It's impossible to tell which one would be best for a given application.
For those using 701: it has to be used correctly. I use it all day, every day and my screens are clean, clear and trouble free.
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It is pink. But not cci's "pink stuff", that's different. This stuff is what shelly mentioned. It took off stains from past reclaims. I haven't seen any issues with frames hlur letting loose. But then again any static frames we have are melray stretches. They have an amazing stretch glueing secret that protects the adheadion. Their restretches have outlasted any we've had in the past. I have had screens from others thst the glue would let go if we used a harsh dehazer.
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It is pink. But not cci's "pink stuff", that's different. This stuff is what shelly mentioned. It took off stains from past reclaims. I haven't seen any issues with frames hlur letting loose. But then again any static frames we have are melray stretches. They have an amazing stretch glueing secret that protects the adheadion. Their restretches have outlasted any we've had in the past. I have had screens from others thst the glue would let go if we used a harsh dehazer.
So we are all on the same page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmv7Twj0Z3g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmv7Twj0Z3g)
(edit: LOL... he calls it "The Pink Stuff" in the vid, just to make it more confusing...)
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BTW when I tried CCI's "The Pink Stuff" I determined that it ruined a 230 mesh screen in just one application. Useless as a dehazer, terrible as a degreaser, and it has abrasives in it that weakened the mesh, shortening the screen's lifespan considerably.
So, if the ICC stuff is different, I might try a sample.
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Im talking about the ICC stuff, not CCI. I used it for about 2 years as a degrease, but it doesnt remove anything beyond the lightest stains. It does not work as a dehaze. 701 does a much better job.
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701 does a much better job.
Noted.
Yeah I'm kinda set in my ways with it now. Pull from the tank, blast it out, apply 701, blast it out, flood rinse, done.
If I have earbuds in under the hearing protectors, and a good playlist on Spotify, 15-20 screens will fly by per hour. Bonus: I get to pretty much ignore everyone in the shop.
;D
My secret weapon: we have a multiple compartment sink. It has a deep area for reclaim/ink/smutz/dirt, and a shallow area with back lighting I use only for developing and flood rinsing. Using the two separately means the final rinse gets zero splash back.
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I have used the ICC 858 for as long as I can remember, & always seem to be safe & gentle, we love this stuff & the smell is nice as well. I have not had the problems with glue do to this stuff & we let it sit for a few minutes. However I think any dehazer can eat at the glue & depending on the glue I can see this being a problem.
Murphy37
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CCI iw-6 is pretty darn good as well.
I was using imagemate 260, but I found it wasn't the best, it does work very well as a degradant in the washout booth though.
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I have used the ICC 858 for as long as I can remember, & always seem to be safe & gentle, we love this stuff & the smell is nice as well. I have not had the problems with glue do to this stuff & we let it sit for a few minutes. However I think any dehazer can eat at the glue & depending on the glue I can see this being a problem.
Murphy37
I agree, we used to use 701 for a long time, then switched to KorChem Pro clean, relabeled by SPA as stain remover/degreaser, it was about 80 bucks per 5er less and a lot stronger than 701. But now trying this cherry smelling 858, using it the way it was demo'd it's even better at removing stains, not to mention it's degreasing ability is awesome. I added a little bit of water to it to loosen it up as the rep said that water is it's friend, actually makes it work better, he was correct. We use Beenie Doo as our de-inker which leaves lots of oily residue, this 858 then took care of all that greasy residue, it's defiantly going to be our new go to. I would suggest getting a sample, and making sure to use it the way they tell you too. I had some screens that had stains from a few jobs back still in the mesh under a new stain, the 858 took those out too, so I'm not sure how anyone trying it says that it's not good at removing stains, because the sample we go was super awesome.
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We use Kiwo Dual Strip and KiwoClean concentrated ink wash for degreasing and haze.
Important- get yourself a high power pressure washer like Evo's video.
Cheap will work, but go electric if possible.
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I have used the ICC 858 for as long as I can remember, & always seem to be safe & gentle, we love this stuff & the smell is nice as well. I have not had the problems with glue do to this stuff & we let it sit for a few minutes. However I think any dehazer can eat at the glue & depending on the glue I can see this being a problem.
Murphy37
I agree, we used to use 701 for a long time, then switched to KorChem Pro clean, relabeled by SPA as stain remover/degreaser, it was about 80 bucks per 5er less and a lot stronger than 701. But now trying this cherry smelling 858, using it the way it was demo'd it's even better at removing stains, not to mention it's degreasing ability is awesome. I added a little bit of water to it to loosen it up as the rep said that water is it's friend, actually makes it work better, he was correct. We use Beenie Doo as our de-inker which leaves lots of oily residue, this 858 then took care of all that greasy residue, it's defiantly going to be our new go to. I would suggest getting a sample, and making sure to use it the way they tell you too. I had some screens that had stains from a few jobs back still in the mesh under a new stain, the 858 took those out too, so I'm not sure how anyone trying it says that it's not good at removing stains, because the sample we go was super awesome.
unless they changed the formula in the last year, i have seen really poor results from it. if I take a screen with a blue plastisol haze and scrub half with this 858 and half with 701, the 858 doesnt look like it did anything and the 701 shows no haze. Both degrease, and for the most part the next stencil is fine on both, but the haze is still there with the 858 and I have had breakdowns on discharge screens when I used it as my primary dehaze/degrease, but have yet to have a screen fail since switching to 701 post tank. the 858 does smell nice though.
shrug...
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Many factors contribute to ink stains/haze/ghosting. Ink, heat, friction, age, among many other things all contribute to it.
Not all shops share the same mesh, presses, inks, emulsions, procedures, techniques, etc. What works perfectly in one shop may be useless in another.
Which makes some of this even more frustrating, because often you have to try a sample of 20 different versions of a particular product to find out what works, and hope it's available long term, and that they don't mess with the formula.
That said, we currently use:
Rutland plastisols. Mainly the M3 mixing formulas, some Color Booster, occasional discharge.
Ulano QTX and QT Discharge emulsions.
Easiway 842 press wash. (only press wash I've found so far that allows tape to stick afterwards and doesn't smell like cancer)
Easiway Easistrip Supra in the dip tank, 5:1 dilution. I'll drain the tank once a month and remove the sludge, and re-fill with the same solution strained through a 160 screen. Slight refresh with water and chemical. Full change out every 3-4 months.
Easiway 701 for dehaze/degrease immediately after the tank reclaim.
Easiway Screen Perfect for any mesh counts 230 above, (I like halftone screens 1000% spotless) or any brand new mesh.
Sprayway 957 screen opener (I hate it and avoid it, the press ops seem to love it but I guess everyone likes to party in different ways)
Sprayway 032 WB screen opener
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Not using a commercial degreaser is like not using soap to wash your dishes. There will be contaminants left on the screen/dishes you can't see. The purpose of degreaser goes beyond cleaning the mesh, it acts as a pre treatment for the emulsion to flow properly and bond to a clean thread so those halftones stay put. Degreaser sure helps the stencil making process go better. When I get the call, 'your emulsion is falling off the screen' the answer is usually expose it better or degrease better. Shortcuts generally take you the long way to non stop production, which is the best money maker in your business. Eliminating inexpensive must have products may save you pennies and cost you dollars in press downtime, rejects, or charge backs in the long run. If I hit the downhill point of a print run right after set up with mesh that registers perfectly, emulsion that holds excellent resolution and doesn't breakdown, how does messing with that system improve upon it? I am willing to sample and prove it and advise anyone who wants to see how to always make a perfect screen. Shoot me an email with contact info and get a sample of the real deal and an evaluation of your system. abuffington@murakamiscreen.com
Al
Murakami Screen
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cci pink stuff, and better yet, ICC 858 for us. I know this thread started a little back, but we have had more time to blow through a few gals of CCI pink stuff, and ICC 858. both are working better for us than 701 or Korchem, but I think the winner for me would be the ICC 858. Fast easy, very strong, zero grease left behind, and taking stains out like a champ.
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Pink stuff is good, but we've always found it a pain to put on!
I like the CCI neutralyze
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For a straight degreaser Xenon has one that is $11 per gallon and can be diluted 4 to 1.
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just opened a 5'r of CCI liquid renuit, stuff smells like chicken piss....but it works better than enviro-haze...so that's a plus.
ICC smells like cherries huh? my local rep is always pushing ICC stuff on me but it reminds me of Xenon products, ya know -made in a bath tub. ;D
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just opened a 5'r of CCI liquid renuit, stuff smells like chicken piss....but it works better than enviro-haze...so that's a plus.
ICC smells like cherries huh? my local rep is always pushing ICC stuff on me but it reminds me of Xenon products, ya know -made in a bath tub. ;D
Really..... I take great pains in the tub using my stirrer to mix everything just so... :o :o
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We've been using the Xenon degreaser here now for 6 months or so.. 99.9% of the screens are perfect every time... I'm pretty sure the .1% times that we have a pinhole are from me not getting all the ink out after I've had a few too many pints of beer while reclaiming.
before we started degreasing I had problems all over the place... pinholes, fisheyes, etc.
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just opened a 5'r of CCI liquid renuit, stuff smells like chicken piss....but it works better than enviro-haze...so that's a plus.
ICC smells like cherries huh? my local rep is always pushing ICC stuff on me but it reminds me of Xenon products, ya know -made in a bath tub. ;D
It does smell nice, but they do have a website, not a ton of info on it, but at least they have one.
What I do like about the 858 or the pinkstuff pastes is that it's easier to control where it goes. My screen guy is moving faster with it vs spray products, using less and actually doing cleaner screens. Before even using 701, or the Korchem, we would still have to spray a final degrease using either franmar or cci neutralize, which wastes more time. Now it's a simple blow out after the dip tank, scrub with a blob of the cherry stuff front and back, go to another screen, go back to that first one spray it out and they are nice. The new screen guy we have we have had to get him to focus on the final rinse to make sure he doesn't leave any, "pepper" dots in the mesh, but hes coming along nice. I like the 858 personally, and the final screens are nice from it.
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I have been trying to solve my hazing problems for over a year after I started simulated process.
I have tried AutoHaze and it rips right through my S-mesh like a sharp knife.
I came across this article last night and hope it will help some people out. I will look for a dehazer that will eat away the ink and NOT the mesh.
http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU (http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU)
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I have been trying to solve my hazing problems for over a year after I started simulated process.
I have tried AutoHaze and it rips right through my S-mesh like a sharp knife.
I came across this article last night and hope it will help some people out. I will look for a dehazer that will eat away the ink and NOT the mesh.
[url]http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU[/url] ([url]http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU[/url])
Nice article. I can relate, this happened to me the other day,
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Stu, Where is your pressure washer?
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That's just a screenshot from the article, I don't use stapled screens either lol. Seriously, even pressure washing can't take it out. It was a sample bottle of ink wash that doesn't go well with non solvent specific emulsion apparently. My screen also shows the wipe marks from the solvent even.
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I have been trying to solve my hazing problems for over a year after I started simulated process.
I have tried AutoHaze and it rips right through my S-mesh like a sharp knife.
I came across this article last night and hope it will help some people out. I will look for a dehazer that will eat away the ink and NOT the mesh.
[url]http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU[/url] ([url]http://www.screenweb.com/content/the-screen-cleaning-boxing-ring?page=0%2C0#.U4GvbC-RIaU[/url])
Just a note, I'm a convert from Autohaze to Liquid Re-Nuit.
In fact, for years, whenever a chem rep made contact with me, I told them that I was looking for a haze remover replacement.
Liquid Re-Nuit was the first I found that did the trick for me. It had "oomph" without the intense fear of destroying mesh and flesh.