TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: IntegrityShirts on August 03, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
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I just picked up a pretty good deal on a used unit and bought a used AI975 integrator separately that doesn't come with cables. Anyone with one or a similar integrator know how many data cables you need to hook the beast up? I'm thinking just two, but I'm not sure.
Couple years ago when I built my home made exposure frame with metal halide light source people suggested I look for a used Olec as a light source...so I did!
Any suggestions for setting it up or initial power settings or really any input would be appreciated.
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Try contacting Olec, or try their site to see if they have a .pdf of the operating manual
Steve
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They do.......through Douthitt 313-259-1565. They are extremely helpful folks!
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Douthitt has the manuals on their site.
Looks like you need 2. They are just 5 pin DIN cables and should
be available at your local nerd store.
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Thanks for the Douthitt info. I had been there before but it looks like the only PDF manuals they have online are for their Magic integrators. In browsing through them though it looks like two is all I'll need. I called Olec and looks like they'll email me a PDF if I email them the serial number of the unit, which should be here in a couple days.
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olec.com/OLEC3/Manuals/94Mu05_Lights.PDF
On my 53 you have one DIN cable for the integrator to photocell then a standard
120 volt plug to control the light.
Looks like you can do a lot more with the integrator you have.
Remote start switch suggested, and if you can set it up for 1 button operation
you'll be cooking with gas.
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What eb said.
To embellish a little, I think we have the same integrator (maybe a 970, I'll check) running our AL-53 and from checking it out and looking through the manual it appears that you can get a control box that let's you hit start and the integrator will turn on your vac, wait for good contact, then run the light, then release the vac after the light's off. Use that with the memory presets for yer different mesh/coating techniques and then you're.....what eb said.
I recommend, after you hook it up with the DIN cables and get a little comfy with it, that you set the photocell so your light units are about at a second. Instructions on this are in the manual.
Another tip: get the kit for the gears that rotate the shutter and keep it for backup. They're thin cast aluminum and they break easily I've found.
Right now we run ours in an enclosed, fairly primitive, homebrew box and it works fine. Some report better image quality when you shoot these lights from further away onto a larger area. I'll report back on that this month sometime. Our screens have came out great with this setup but it's possible that they make different reflectors for these.
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/P5100358.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/P5100354.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/P5100355.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/P5100352.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/P5100353.jpg)
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They do make different reflectors, I think the info is in the manual and the code for them
can be found on the unit somewhere. For our purposes I think most would want the SW or super-wide.
Allows a closer light to screen distance so we're not shooting from 4 feet.
Hell of a unit there Zoo.
Never had a problem with the gears, but I do know that the wiring inside the unit is notorious for
frying. Not to scare you but there's actually quite a few things that go wrong with these. Might
explain Olec's disappearance.
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What eb said.
Some report better image quality when you shoot these lights from further away onto a larger area. I'll report back on that this month sometime. Our screens have came out great with this setup but it's possible that they make different reflectors for these.
EB beat me on the reflector thing.
One of them, as Nick (ftempbroidery) learned is designed to be only 85% of the distance of the diagonal, unlike others that may be more than twice that.
The specs of which reflector are on a label on the main unit, or at least should be, They are on a unit I have kicking around
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I was happy to put mine into semi-retirement yesterday with the addition of a much
more user (employee) friendly PhotoSharp unit, at 1000 watts.
The 53 will be relegated to flatstock, oversize and emergency service.
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Awesome, thanks everyone. Zoo, your setup looks very similar to mine. In reading the PDF that EB posted, looks like the lamp head I am getting is the 1261 with a standard/normal light pattern. Not narrow and not super wide, which on the chart in the pdf puts the distance to the glass at 35-40" which my setup should be darn close to.
Zoo you gave good advice on my spof thread http://www.screenprintersopen.com/screen-printing-equipment/my-diy-exposure-unit-bomb-shelter/msg84173/#msg84173 (http://www.screenprintersopen.com/screen-printing-equipment/my-diy-exposure-unit-bomb-shelter/msg84173/#msg84173)
And your advice led me to the al53...you guessed it, for about $500 shipped lol you're a fortune teller!
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I recommend, after you hook it up with the DIN cables and get a little comfy with it, that you set the photocell so your light units are about at a second. Instructions on this are in the manual.
Another tip: get the kit for the gears that rotate the shutter and keep it for backup. They're thin cast aluminum and they break easily I've found.
Got the unit and integrator and went through some testing yesterday. Got the photocell/lamp calibrated at all three intensity levels. What is NOT working is the shutter!! I took covers off of both the lamp and power supply to inspect. Gears all look good for the shutter motor and if I release the plastic detent stopped I can rotate the shutter by hand. I started to trace wiring back to the pc board control to see if there were any obvious problems but got caught up with customers. Ever had this problem Zoo or anyone?
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Check the micro-switches for damage or incorrect positioning. Does it sound like it's trying
to open or anything at all? Make sure the shutter is in the correct position (fully open) when you
turn the unit on.
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Hmmm micro switches...on the shutter assembly or the shutter motor itself? I see a little plastic hook thing on a spring that keeps the motor from rotating but I'm not sure what exactly moves that out of the way so the motor can spin. I'll look again and post pics! Thanks!
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ok I see the micro switch for the shutter and checked that it clicks and is clicked (shutter fully open) when turning the unit on. When you turn your main unit on, does the shutter rotate closed immediately? If not, how long after startup does it take before your shutter closes?
It doesn't appear that the motor is trying to move at all. I watch the chain drive and don't see any indication of movement.
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Does the lamp strike? My shutter closes once the lamp is lit.
I have a tech manual for the unit, shoot me your email and I'll send it over.
Has a fault tree which might help.
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Awesome, email sent to you via forum software, thanks!
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Thanks for the manual ebscreen, that helped me diagnose the problem. The relay for the shutter motor isn't firing even though the correct LED is lit. The relay is getting 12vdc but isn't making contact so I'm going to order a relay, solder it in, and see if that fixes the problem. I will report back, thanks!
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Right arm. Hope it works out. You might try knockin the relay a bit, I've seen 'em stick.
Should also be able to get a standard 12 volt relay at Radio Shack or wherever.
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Got the unit and integrator and went through some testing yesterday. Got the photocell/lamp calibrated at all three intensity levels. What is NOT working is the shutter!! I took covers off of both the lamp and power supply to inspect. Gears all look good for the shutter motor and if I release the plastic detent stopped I can rotate the shutter by hand. I started to trace wiring back to the pc board control to see if there were any obvious problems but got caught up with customers. Ever had this problem Zoo or anyone?
Before you go replacing that relay, do you have the safety glass installed over the lamp housing? There's a little lever thingy on there that has to be depressed (you can clamp it down to override this in-built safety feature, but better to put the tempered glass on there). If it's not depressed it won't strike no matter what signal it's getting.
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From a Pmail, he's getting a strike, but no shutter action. Looks like he's got
it nailed down.
That said. Douthitt.
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It would be classic if this Douthtitt guy's initials are E.Z. ;D
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I've got a Douthitt vacuum frame that must be from the 20's or so. Still rockin' all night long.
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Got us a Millington frame. Called them today for a manual for our model and dude was like "why do you want one, there's nothing in there anyhow". Looks like we get to rebuild us a vac frame on our own terms.
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De-soldered the relay and retested, confirmed non functional. It clicks, but doesn't complete the path. Hope the new relay (coming from CA via ground shipping - fail) will fix the shutter and I can complete the swap over from the metal halide!
Nemesis:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kqoE3Om3LU0/TkKA3q8-D5I/AAAAAAAAANA/8o7QYVlDbtg/s640/IMG_20110810_085909.jpg)
Question for you guys. When switching between power levels do you hear audible crackling every once in a while from the capacitor area? I noticed a slightly loose spade connector on top of a capacitor and tightened it down which helped but still hear a little snap every once in a while.
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Guy tells his doctor "Doc it hurts when I raise my arm over my head" Doc says "then don't do that".
Kidding, but I've never switched power levels, so I don't know. Do make sure that your 208/220 switch is
set correctly. And do replace any suspect wiring. It somehow seems to me that OLEC kinda skimped on some
stuff in these lights. I could be wrong and maybe 5KW metal halide lamps with shutters really are just
failure prone devices but somehow I doubt it.
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Guy tells his doctor "Doc it hurts when I raise my arm over my head" Doc says "then don't do that".
Kidding, but I've never switched power levels, so I don't know. Do make sure that your 208/220 switch is
set correctly. And do replace any suspect wiring. It somehow seems to me that OLEC kinda skimped on some
stuff in these lights. I could be wrong and maybe 5KW metal halide lamps with shutters really are just
failure prone devices but somehow I doubt it.
So you expose screens at the 1000w lamp setting? I was referring to the light switching from low, mid, high there are audible snaps sometimes (like spark arcing), this is while switching from the integrator control, not the toggles on the front of the machine.
Input power switch is correctly set. There's a toggle on top of the capacitors, what's that do? All I see written near that toggle is don't switch under power.
They do seem pretty archaic inside, giant transformers and capacitors. Heck if it goes south I could probably get $200 for its weight in copper lol.
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The switch is likely for the bulb type. You change it for the L1250 I believe.
I always used 5K. I'm assuming your power level switch is on your integrator?
Mine wasn't that fancy.
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Ahhh that makes sense that the switch would be for bulb type. Yeah this 975 integrator has a bulb intensity level control, though I'll probably use the 5k option all the time as well.
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GREAT SUCCESS!! New relay soldered in and it works great!!
Now, Zoo, here's a quote you typed over on SPOF forever ago when I built my frame. Think this is a good start for exposure with Aquasol HV now that we're talking apples to apples? You're exposing at the highest setting, 5000w right?
You'll have to find out for yerself there. It's hard telling how much UV in the 350-420 nm spectrum that setup is going to throw and how much the distance from the screen and the thickness (and type of) glass will take away from it. On the above described olec my thickest coated Aquasol HV screens on a 115tpi mesh shot in around 16 sec. but, again, there's no reference but your own setup to go off of.
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Congrats!
On a medium age bulb (originally calibrated to 1 lu./sec) a 125 mesh coated 1/2 was right about 35 lu.
That was at a distance of about 3 feet from glass to glass and a super wide reflector. 5Kw.
Oh, and a Photopolymer (L1250?) spectrum bulb, same emulsion. Open air exposure, no enclosure.
Rough starting point anyways. Only one way to tell for sure.
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GREAT SUCCESS!! New relay soldered in and it works great!!
Now, Zoo, here's a quote you typed over on SPOF forever ago when I built my frame. Think this is a good start for exposure with Aquasol HV now that we're talking apples to apples? You're exposing at the highest setting, 5000w right?
You'll have to find out for yerself there. It's hard telling how much UV in the 350-420 nm spectrum that setup is going to throw and how much the distance from the screen and the thickness (and type of) glass will take away from it. On the above described olec my thickest coated Aquasol HV screens on a 115tpi mesh shot in around 16 sec. but, again, there's no reference but your own setup to go off of.
Good to hear!
I'll tell ya everything I know:
- Always @ 5k watts
- 5/8" thick regular float glass (green tint from the side)
- Can't remember distance from screen. :o
- Bulb is a generic L-1250 or 1252 can't recall but 1252 I think. ( :o again)
- Aquasol HVP
Our common exposures by tpi/thread diameter, coat (R=round edge T=thin edge), and LTUs
90/71 2/2R 18 ltu
110/71 2/2R 17
150/48 2/1R 15
180/48 2/1R 14
225/40 2/1T 11
310/30 2/1T 10
*these are all "s" meshes but aren't too far off from their regular mesh cousins.
Time for exposure calibration- Enjoy!
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Wow, thanks guys. I will certainly start out with all the advice you have given. Now I need to plop this boat anchor under my glass and pull the metal halide out for shop lighting!
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Awesome. Just shot a 110 at 17 units and it came out perfect! Big thanks!!
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So I picked up an Olec AL-53 and AL-121 with a millington vac frame for an embarrassingly low price today. I haven't fired it up yet as all of the 220 in the shop is the wrong plug :( At least I know the vac table pull lots of mercury! Anyhow, it came with the blue end 1250 and I was wondering if I would gain anything significant by replacing it with the 1252 that is made for dual cure. I am currently using kiwo poly plus emulsions, my favorite is the S, but I am using a gallon of the SRX at the moment and got a sample of the HWR that I will christen the new kit with.
@ZooCity, I actually got a manual with my millington. It was printed with a dot matrix printer and the illustrations were made by pressing keys on the keyboard. The guy you talked to was right, there isn't anything important in it other than a reminder to make sure the table is level. It also goes into the importance of oiling the vacuum pump, which is odd because it has an oil-less unit on it. Might be a replacement I suppose.
@ebscreen, Olec went away?
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Stu:
Olec's around still. Sometimes it's hard to tell but then all of the sudden someone picks up the phone and you can get your parts. I'm not sure if it's a division of another co. now or what.
ASCII art for the manual? That's hilarious....and awesome.
Unless it's a really big vac table it shouldn't be in need of a lot of juice. The AL-53 takes the appropriate dedicated circuit with the right Nema plug, I have one of the twist-locks on ours, if I get a second I'll give you specs. Also check that the correct one is installed on that used piece before assuming it's the female one that you need.
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The plug isn't a problem, I have an electrician coming in to wire a 30A outlet. It's just that all I have are 20A and 50A haha. The cable says Olec, so I am assuming it's the right one. Also the max draw is 25A. You're right on the vac table, its a 6amp 120v pump.
I haven't had to deal with getting parts from olec, yet, but from all that I saw when I researched it, they seem to be in business. Their website works, for the most part. No manuals at this time though. And their lamps are still being sold with exposure units from DOUTHITT and I think millington even.
One really minor thing is that the integrator seems to require a vacuum delay. I find that really unnecessary because I don't have a remote switch on the vacuum pump, so the delay is from me turning on the pump and waiting for it to come to full vacuum before I hit the start button on the integrator. Is there a way to bypass the vacuum delay? I tried entering 0, but it doesn't seem to want to take that. The manual makes me wish that I had one of the Al-9xx integrators.
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I forgot to answer your initial question on the bulb types and the short answer is I don't see big difference between the photopolymer and the dual-cure bulbs. I'd like to hear from others on this as well but we just go with the 1252 typically and run 95% pure photopolymer. There is a nice spectrum diagram out there on the interwebs somewhere but I can't remember where.
Vac delay, I don't have any experience with that yet. I thought you needed that QEC box or whatever to use that function but I may have read that part incorrectly.
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From the spectrum diagram, it looks like it has a much more even distribution of UV, less of a spike in the upper area than the 1250. I have the feeling that if I never try the 1252, I won't miss it. Even if it isn't the optimal spectrum, it will expose faster than the 1kW MH grow light I was using (Hey, everyone has to start somewhere!)
Though I do know that the bulb will either die or cease to expose fast and then I will be faced with this decision. Or if I am on top of things, I will be getting a replacement soon. The other part, aside from the cap switch, is that it looks like I would need to change the photocell to a wide band unit.
The remote box is required if I wanted to have the integrator control the vacuum, but the delay seems to be hardwired. I must be doing something wrong. It seems simple enough that I should be able to figure it out by experimenting.
Thanks for the help ZooCity!
Oh yeah, I was confusing the power plug with the plug that connects the PSU to the lamp. It looks like the cord is generic, but still, it has the 30A plug, so it should be all good.
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I think there's a default vacuum countdown for the integrators. Mine's default is 12 seconds. What's weird is even if I set it lower than 12 seconds it still has a 12 second delay. Maybe that's the minimum amount of delay before exposure? I'd like to get a QXD box but damn they're hard to find!
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Thankfully, everything but the time seems to reset when it has a power cycle so the vacuum delay went away. I am pretty sure I pressed the vacuum button out of curiosity and I couldn't figure out how to turn it off.
Got it hooked up yesterday and it didn't have vac delay when I turned it on thankfully. It exposed the screens in about the time that the tech sheet said for the kiwo poly plus hwr using the ulano step wedge with a film from my printer that is a copy of the original film because the ulano pig film has a much lower dmin. If the tech sheet for the QX-1 is telling me the truth, it should only take a around 20 seconds for a 2+2 with skim coat! I think that I will try that tape dam idea to put an extra thick layer of emulsion on top of a dried screen with the QX-1 since I don't think that I will get much use out of it otherwise.
About the remote box, I bet that the remote control for the vacuum is just a 120v relay. I am going to hook my multimeter up to the remote din plug to see if it is putting out a steady voltage on any of the pins during the vac delay. If it does, I will just get a relay that takes that voltage to trigger and voila! I think I found one somewhere, it was about $130. Not too bad compared to the rest of the accessories, but a lot more than I want to pay if it can be replaced with an $8 relay.
Speaking of accessories, My unit came with the filter box and filters for making bluelines, something I will never use. It looks like the things retail for $800! This reminds me of the false economy of buying a used super car that has depreciated greatly in value, or luxury car for that matter. Like the old 8 series bmw's, no matter how cheap you buy it, it will cost you more money to maintain it than you may realize. I am beginning to feel that way about the Olec, though it is worth it.
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We have two Olec units and alltogether, including bulbs over the years, parts, etc. have sunk less than $1k into them. That's pretty hard to beat.
Once in a while I look at an Amergraph 7500w unit and ponder but these used Olecs, provided you're willing to put a little time into them, yield one hell of a roi in my opinion. We're exposing just a fast and clean as any other system out there for a fraction of the cost.
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I would highly recommend that you be careful. I'm not an overly cautious guy, but working on these things is not to be taken lightly (pun intended.) One of my local suppliers has two artificial fingers that replace the ones he lost working on an exposure unit. This isn't a story of "I heard of a guy", I can take a photo of his fingers next time he is in here if you want.
Also I second the recommendation on getting information from Douthitt. They have been incredibly helpful to us.
Third, the Olec units are awesome.
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dragging this up from the dead.
just scored a al-53 with a 121 integrator and vacuum table for under $900.
I've got the light source set up, but not the vacuum table.
can anyone give me some tips on the integrator? ours seems super finicky at the moment. It seems the low level light is always on, or maybe that's the u.v. light? i can't tell
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Is the 'Light Intensity' set right? Could be a PS deal if the integrator is telling it to go to high power but it won't.
Even at 1.2K or whatever, it's still a pretty decent light source. The integrators are fun, if you like programming an old VCR... ;D
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Is the integrator set to the correct photocell? I think ours has A/B with two inputs I think, one for each. If you are plugged into B but the integrator is looking for some input on the A channel it's probably going to freak a little. We run the photocell right inside the bulb housing.
This is going on a tangent but...anyone know if the A/B photocell thing is for using two photocells- one at the glass, one at the light source maybe for increased accuracy or something? My guess was this option was for some of the more intricate photochemical processes these units were used for.
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it should be, right now it's going through A, but it's weird, i've messed with it some more and and i can get it to turn off the 5k light, but it still puts out a lower level light.
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Check the settings on the ballast. There's two switches that need to be configured for the wattage you're going for.
Low level light- like it's on and bright but not kicking out the 5k watt jamz? Or it's real dim?
Maybe test the unit and bulb first.
with the unit off:
disconnect the integrator
check your connections -enough juice and right plug and cable to the ballast? power cable to lamp head all good and inserted all the way?
ensure you have safety glass installed or, if you're a gamblin' man, have something depressing the metal lever that pops up
go to the switches on the ballast. Set to 5k.
turn it on at the ballast, let it warm.
flip the unit on manually, another switch at the ballast
See if that changes anything so you can at least rule out the rest of the setup.
You can contact Olec on the phone and they'll email a 121 manual over to you.
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I'll see if i can take a video of it.
i've been able to get the 5k light to kick on, and i've figured out how to control it somewhat, but it goes from a dim light to the 5k, back to the dim light.
bulb looks brand new, and hardly used, and i think all my connections are ok!
but my intergator is missing the start/cancel button, and has to be activated by jumping the metal pieces together.
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it goes from a dim light to the 5k, back to the dim light.
That sounds like an integrator thing.
my intergator is missing the start/cancel button, and has to be activated by jumping the metal pieces together.
And that's just plain silly. Get ye to thine Radio Shacke.
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I'll see if i can take a video of it.
i've been able to get the 5k light to kick on, and i've figured out how to control it somewhat, but it goes from a dim light to the 5k, back to the dim light.
bulb looks brand new, and hardly used, and i think all my connections are ok!
but my intergator is missing the start/cancel button, and has to be activated by jumping the metal pieces together.
Is the shutter opening and closing (rotating) during the low/high/low actions?
With my AI975 on startup it warms the lamp using full power shutter closed. After it has been on for about 20 seconds you can hear it click down the power to low. Exposure then depends on the setting on the integrator, I always expose at 5k so it ramps up to 5k when I hit start and shutter opens.
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nope doesn't seem like there is a shutter at all.
New developments, it seems that when i press the "power" button for the integrator, the 5K light powers on, then it goes to low light after 31 seconds.
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nope doesn't seem like there is a shutter at all.
New developments, it seems that when i press the "power" button for the integrator, the 5K light powers on, then it goes to low light after 31 seconds.
Hmm which lamp head do you have? LT1?
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i believe so. i just took the lamp head out of the casing. i can move the shutter by hand, so i'm thinking maybe part of the motor is running correct.
but also the bulb shouldn't just fire on right when it's powered on correct?
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i believe so. i just took the lamp head out of the casing. i can move the shutter by hand, so i'm thinking maybe part of the motor is running correct.
but also the bulb shouldn't just fire on right when it's powered on correct?
With the integrator, yes the bulb fires and the shutter rotates closed. Go back a few pages in this thread and see the pic of the relay that I replaced on the board inside the AL53 power unit. This controls the shutter and was dead on mine. I replaced it and my shutter opens and closes now correctly. Be mindful of the giant capacitors inside the unit, these can store large amounts of power even when unplugged (I don't know how long it takes for them to discharge after being unplugged). Don't short them with any tools or metal objects.
This might not necessarily be your problem, but it's a good place to start checking and probably why they sold the unit? Did you get it at an auction or surplus?
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cool, i def. saw that thread, and i'll revisit it and check it out! i'm just not very good with electronics!
we got it from an auction of a closed print shop.!
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Gonna be completely honest here, Olec is garbage. Perfect example
of American manufacturing gone bad. They're out of biz, when you call it goes
to some dudes cell phone. I have two AL-53/LT1's and two AL13's.
Nothing but problems from them. Grossly undersized wiring in the 53's and
bad engineering in the 13's leading to blown triacs etc. Ugh.
That said, the AL53's do go into standby/low power mode when the shutter is closed,
switching to the set power (1000,3000 or 5000 watts) for the actual exposure.
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weird, i called and had gotten two really helpful people walking me through what to do.
also i'm pretty sure this is a shutter problem. working on it now.
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I had to rebuild the gear set on a shutter on one of ours, they sell a kit, pretty easy to do.
That sucks eb regarding your experience. Mine's rune fine for what seems like forever and in less than ideal conditions at that.