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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: ebscreen on February 13, 2014, 04:39:02 PM
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Anyone used CCI's Waterbase White (not discharge)? Looking for a solution to non-discharging garments.
Also, they have a water resistant blockout now. Gonna give it a whirl.
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check with TechSupport. they are carrying Permaset. I have done a little with it but so far I really like it. they have a first down white and a super cover white.
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Pure White is pretty great stuff. Very smooth white prints on most garments. It's a cotton only according to Tad at CCI. I think it's basically an HSA, treat it similar to plastisol in terms of stencil and flashing. Overprinting CCI WB top colors worked but did not test out well in wash tests so it's pretty much a standalone white.
We used this ink for a run with the dreaded 10" block of white on the front, discharge UB, Pure White, flash, Pure White. Came out very nice and as good as it gets for hand I would say. The DC UB was probably not needed or really doing anything in hindsight.
I'm looking forward to comparing this to other HSA high opacity whites and even more looking forward to having a complete HSA mixing system that we can overprint colors onto an HSA white base.
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I'm looking forward to comparing this to other HSA high opacity whites and even more looking forward to having a complete HSA mixing system that we can overprint colors onto an HSA white base.
You can add pigment to the white itself and then overprint...works really well. Yes you do have to add a lot of pigment to overcome the white but the finished result is very stretchy with no cracking.
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Yaffel, do you work for CCI?
How much pig can be added to Pure White? We were going to do this today to mix a Yellow 102c using Pure White and CMS yellow but backed off since we were unclear on the interaction.
Can you run Pure White on poly blends or is bleed an issue?
Any plans for a Pure base?
I agree, fantastic washfastness, stretch and durability. Definitely impressed with the product just need more info so we can use it more.
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I'm looking forward to comparing this to other HSA high opacity whites and even more looking forward to having a complete HSA mixing system that we can overprint colors onto an HSA white base.
You can add pigment to the white itself and then overprint...works really well. Yes you do have to add a lot of pigment to overcome the white but the finished result is very stretchy with no cracking.
IM confused on this. You add lets say red pigment to the white then over print it with red WB ink. So you have 2 screens to print red. If you have a 2 color job you have 4 screens? I may have missed something here.
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Have you tried the Matsui HO white?
I always had very good results with it.
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For white matsui 301 is best.
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eb, any update on the pure white or the aquablock? I just ordered some to try it out. I want to find something for the non dc garments, i think i'll have to give the matsui another shot. I'm hoping to find something in the cci line that works for us...zoo, wash test was a failure with pure white as a base?
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Pure White is an HSA. It has been very durable, shrugged off the wash tests like it was nothing, prints still look brand new after 15 wash/dry cycles. Standard WB colors on top of pure white? No go. As Yaffel here said, you can tint pure white (at what level of pigment load???) and put thaton top and get good inter film adhesion but you need an HSA base to do so. Standard WB base will bond to HSA but not well enough from what I've tested. CCI's only HSA right now appears to be the Pure White but I hear they are working on more, which is great.
Rutland, Magna, Wilflex and others all have HSA lines now. We're starting to make the migration and are eating through our first 5gal of Rutland's HSA Soft White this week with much more testing to follow. I'm sure it'll be a hodge podge of different items from different mfg's as our standard WB and DC ink setup is. We are beginning to have more of an ink factory than an ink area in some ways....
CCI doesn't but the others mentioned above have HSA base+pig, RFU or both and this is what you would use for top colors over an ink like Pure White. The WB inks we tested as top colors tried to hang onto it but didn't well enough to put that print out in the world.
We're excited about this ink type, it has it's challenges but lots of promise.
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This is exactly what I am working on now too! I got the Magna "starter kit" and I believe all the bases and white. I really wanted to try the Wilflex HSA system but between a useless Midwest Screen salesman and equally poor Wilflex salesman couldn't even start to get me pricing I decided to skip Wilflex for now. I have talked to 2 shops that use the Rutland system and they gave it a solid "7"..... Green Galaxy is going to be rolling out their HSA inks(the white is already out) but the word is NO pig system, just RFU's. :-\
So I am basically going to be testing Magna and Virus for now. Would be interesting if CCI brought something to the table because that is the discharge system we currently use.
I would LOVE to have 1 system total! WB/DC/HSA all using the same pigments, just different bases.
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check with TechSupport. they are carrying Permaset. I have done a little with it but so far I really like it. they have a first down white and a super cover white.
I totally agree. The Permaset white is awesome. First down or Supercover both great products and a lot better then the 301. We do like as well the Union HS-A Soft White. That stuff is so white even through a high mesh but without the open time extender you are facing an uphill battle.
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Make sure you use thin-threads, makes a huge difference to feel and coverage.
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Try Rob Coleman at Nazdar for the wilflex. I have all the pricing and into somewhere if you email me.
I want to check the wilflex out now that it looks like oasis is going to stick around. The core idea for us is to find a pig set with excellent quality and availability that can load a good hsa base. From there you just pick your favorite wb and dc bases, whites and blacks and yer all set.
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No update yet, too busy. Ugh.
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check with TechSupport. they are carrying Permaset. I have done a little with it but so far I really like it. they have a first down white and a super cover white.
Permaset only comes in a waterbase right? Do they offer discharge or a HSA base?
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I tried mixing some zfs into the permaset today and it totally turned it to water. I used magnas agent. Have no idea if you really should keep same brands together or not so not sure. Permaset is very much like sericol. Same formulas as them. Whoever here using sericol, how do you do discharge? Wonder if using the same "items" would work with permaset
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I tried mixing some zfs into the permaset today and it totally turned it to water. I used magnas agent. Have no idea if you really should keep same brands together or not so not sure. Permaset is very much like sericol. Same formulas as them. Whoever here using sericol, how do you do discharge? Wonder if using the same "items" would work with permaset
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Here is what we used for activator with Sericol when we tested it out-
http://www.atlasscreensupply.net/index.php?main_page=document_product_info&cPath=1_232_233&products_id=1207&zenid=ca9ca0a960b1df220da578e78a0f35d0 (http://www.atlasscreensupply.net/index.php?main_page=document_product_info&cPath=1_232_233&products_id=1207&zenid=ca9ca0a960b1df220da578e78a0f35d0)
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I tried mixing some zfs into the permaset today and it totally turned it to water. I used magnas agent. Have no idea if you really should keep same brands together or not so not sure. Permaset is very much like sericol. Same formulas as them. Whoever here using sericol, how do you do discharge? Wonder if using the same "items" would work with permaset
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Wait, when did Permaset start making discharge inks?
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I tried mixing some zfs into the permaset today and it totally turned it to water. I used magnas agent. Have no idea if you really should keep same brands together or not so not sure. Permaset is very much like sericol. Same formulas as them. Whoever here using sericol, how do you do discharge? Wonder if using the same "items" would work with permaset
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Wait, when did Permaset start making discharge inks?
I think Ryan was saying their WB inks didn't work as discharge.
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Correct, they don't discharge or aren't dischargeable.
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Of course a WB ink does not work as discharge. Sericol's RFU DC inks are in no way comparable to an HSA which is what permaset sounds like. Completely different systems with completely different chemistry and intended print techniques as well as finishes.
....although this made me think...how rad would a DC/HSA hybrid be? Like plasticharge but all WB. Man, that would rule. Probably not chemically possible though.
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See how much I know. After owning my business for 16 years, I printed my first water base job less than a month ago and my first discharge job maybe 2 months ago. I just assumed water base ink could be used for discharge. Silly me.....I have a lot to learn I guess. At least I know now
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Discharge work as waterbase ink but not for dark fabrics.
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I'm looking forward to comparing this to other HSA high opacity whites and even more looking forward to having a complete HSA mixing system that we can overprint colors onto an HSA white base.
You can add pigment to the white itself and then overprint...works really well. Yes you do have to add a lot of pigment to overcome the white but the finished result is very stretchy with no cracking.
IM confused on this. You add lets say red pigment to the white then over print it with red WB ink. So you have 2 screens to print red. If you have a 2 color job you have 4 screens? I may have missed something here.
Not 2 red screens. You print white first , flash , then print a white that has had red added to it. Pigment load will depend on whose pigments you are using.
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Hey Ryan, it can be confusing with the options we have nowadays.
Systems are either:
- Ready for use. All inks in the system are balanced and can print out of the bucket or be mixed to various other colors. Simplest, most foolproof.
- Pigment Concentrate + Base. Non-balanced pigment dispersions are added to a carrier base. Complex, most versatile.
And the three main types of WB ink are:
- Standard WB. Not opaque, works on lights or perhaps over a discharge base.
- Discharge. Activated with either ZFS or a NF activator (each have different bases), opaque on discharging garments.
- HSA or High Solids Acrylic. Completely different animal, opaque, kind of like plastisol and water based had a kid.
Standard WB and DC inks often share pigment sets in a PC system but RFU WB or DC is not interchangeable- you've seen what happens trying to activate a not intended for discharge base. Running an unactivated discharge ink as standard WB is possible and some keep only discharge base and use it for both DC and WB but I don't recommend doing this as most DC inks do not contain adequate binder to run unactivated. Standard WB and DC is not typically flashed on press.
HSA stands alone and should only be used with other HSA inks and modifiers. Inks are printed in a similar (but not exactly the same) way to plastisol with flashes, etc. A handful of the PC systems do have HSA bases that can be tinted with the same PCs used for WB and DC ink however.
A clear or mix of clear/white DC ink can be used as an underbase with any ink- HSA, WB or plasti -on top with different results from each.
It does seem very confusing just writing this out, many options and many differences between each brand. Hope that is helpful in a small way.
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Has anyone heard or used Matsui's 301W CL?
It works great as an under base white. If you are printing on 50/50 or 100% poly we also have an under coat blocker to prevent sublimation/migration with most fabrics. Testing is highly recommended due to all the weird fabrics and dying process in existence.
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stumbled upon these little gems if anyone needs things spelled out like I do..sometimes it gets a bit confusing with all wb, dc, hsa stuff...
http://www.sourceoneonline.com/product.asp?categoryID=4§ionID=25&subSectionID=293&subSection2ID=85&catID=85&catTab=sub_section2&attrIDs=0 (http://www.sourceoneonline.com/product.asp?categoryID=4§ionID=25&subSectionID=293&subSection2ID=85&catID=85&catTab=sub_section2&attrIDs=0)
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Thanks, always find having data sheets on file helps in keeping me from getting lazy.
Murphy37
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Finally got around to testing the CCI Pure White.
Weird stuff. If I had to sum it up I'd say it's right smack dab between waterbase and plastisol.
Mostly in terms of how it prints, but also the way it feels in the bucket and the way it smells.
Weird stuff.
We had a discharge white run that had 50 or so Royal shirts thrown in, so I thought I'd try it out on these.
(Royal doesn't discharge)
180 mesh (typically would have gone higher for just discharge) it took a pretty hard flood and two strokes
to clear the screen. I could see if we fooled with it a bit and/or used a lower mesh clearing in one hit no problem.
Squeegee was at 10 degrees from straight up and down, so again a little lower than plastisol, a little higher than waterbase.
Flashes like a dream, virtually no after flash tack immediately after flashing. Super fast too.
We just went around twice as this was the first venture with the stuff. pp/f/pp. Super opaque
and the fiber matte down is awesome.
In the dryer like waterbase, nice and slow. The finished hand is super soft, kind of velvety.
Straight water will work for cleanup, but in dried areas a little degradent gets it moving. Again, right in between
plastisol and waterbase.
So yeah, weird stuff. If they can get top colors and w/o/w figured out (Just heard that one of our suppliers is going to be the
sole distributor for Virus on the west coast...) plastisol may be on the way out.