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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: mimosatexas on February 20, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
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I use Matsui Brite White discharge and have been for a while now without any real issues. Today I mix up a batch and add my standard 6% activator and 10% water and 5% printgen and it refuses to mix properly. It looks like really fine cottage cheese, and no amount of mixing is changing it. I tried doubling the water, and adjusting the % of other additives and no go. The ink out of the bucket isn't workable as it dries to quickly. Anyone know of common issues that might cause this?
All variables are essentially the same and I printed with this same bucket of ink a few days ago without issue, same batches of everything. Could something in my water have caused a ph imbalance or reaction? It isnt substantially more or less humid today than it was at the beginning of the week. Just looking for insight and things I can test to get rolling again without dumping the ink (assuming it isnt something with the ink).
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this just came up the other day and someone posted the cause/solution of the cottage cheese syndrome...can't for the life of me think what it was...I'll try a search...here we go..you're right, ph.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=10807.0 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=10807.0)
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So is the ink itself the issue? The linked thread is talking about plasticharge not discharge, not sure if that matters. What would cause a full bucket of ink to change ph in a few days? I wanna avoid throwing away money in the future...
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Sorry to bump this, but anyone have any tips? I have about $130 of ink that is currently unprintable. It's acting really odd, even with just adding distilled water. If i take some and rub it in my fingers the ink still looks particle-y, like it just refuses to unclump. It almost seems like it is dried or cured or has separated on a level that isn't immediately obvious.
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Is it sort of a sandy texture? I've seen this before but can't recall when or why. I know it was on a different
white that we were testing and not CCI's.
Maybe mix the entire bucket before you dole out what you need? Sorry I can't be of more help. Give CCI a whirl though.
Never let's me down.
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I'm getting a sample of both the CCI D white and the Magna Super White asap. They are already on order, but it will still be a few days shipping. Sandy would be a good way to describe it. Not sure what the deal is, but it is seriously bumming me out. Ive been using the Matsui white for a few years without issue and to lose 1/3 of a 5 gallon like this is something I just can't afford...
I'll try mixing the whole bucket with distilled water, but I'm thinking it isn't going to help based on the testing I've already done on smaller quantities.
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OH man, wish we could have hooked up on this board a few years ago and kept you from even buying any Matsui discharge base or white. At any rate, now you will seriously appreciate how CCI, or if you try Magna will work. Our fave Discharge white is CCI D-White, always bright, always does what it's supposed to, classified as Organic, which actually means something to certain customers, at least some of ours, and it's price is awesome. Not to mention, when printed properly, outlasts the shirt. We love it and have gone through tonns of it.
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I really don't have anything bad to say about the Matsui inks or pigments based on my experience...until this. They work and produce great results for low cost and are available locally for me. I am excited about the CCI d white though and the pigments coming in squeeze bottles is awesome, though I put my matsui pigments in the same bottles as soon as I get them. The price on the CCI seems to be really awesome and it is encouraging to hear how many people like using their inks.
I just wish I knew what changed in the ink. I used the same ink a few days earlier without issue.
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You will see a huge huge difference, even with color matching with the base. The CCI Dbase, or even Magna's base are our favorites. Both can also print, un activated as a just plane water based color. The only thing with the CCI coloring, even though their software can help you achieve and almost exact pms right out of the box, you will go through more of it than you did with the matsui pigments. The magna pigments are alot like Matsui in that they are higher in concentration so you go through less pigment to make a color, but the pricing of the CCI is very very good, and unless you are mixing gallons it's really not that bad, it's amazing how many images you can print with the CCI Dbase, so we have learned to mix more accurate amounts per job an minimize waste. CCI dialed it in very good. The only thing I wasn't too happy with Magna is that the pms software is all calibrated to Uncoated, not that huge of a deal, but you just have to go through and make sure the match will be close to coated pms swatches. I still use the matsui printgen and fixerN out of habbit and never have wash out issues, so we stick with that combo.
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good to hear the printgen and fixer work with CCI. Does the matsui activator also work with CCI or magna out of curiosity?
I always mix to job specs, averaging 5-10g total per print based on coverage based on weigh tests i did a while ago. It isn't exact, but close enough to have acceptable amounts of waste most of the time.
I was under the impression all waterbased prints were uncoated due to that matte finish of the inks by default. I always match my matsui to uncoated colors, and their software is damn near exact most of the time except on some reds/oranges.
One thing that does bug me about the Matsui brite base is the fact that it cant be used for standard unactivated printing as it will ALWAYS lighten a few shades when cured. This is most obvious on red's becoming pinks, but I have always used 301 instead to color match on whites/lights because of the lightening. A single base instead of two would rule.
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Have you asked Matsui tech support?
My experience is that ink techs usually really know their product.
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I would'nt leave Rutland out if I were you.
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I have not called Matsui. I may still, but I'm walking away from it to focus on other stuff for now.
Just finished adding distilled water until I got to a 50/50 water/ink mix and mixed it to hell with a drill and shaking the bucket and tried through my test screen and it was still drying in instantly in sections. It's like something dried the ink up to the point where parts of it simply wont dissolve in the water. Even runny enough to slide down the screen the top of the ink is acting almost like a lava flow where it is drying and cracking/cratering on a very tiny scale. I've never seen this before...weird stuff.
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The activator does work with the others, but when you run out, make sure and use CCI's activator. There is a difference, some folks say they are all the same, but they really aren't. Not only does it not stink as bad there is a noticeable difference in your outcome, the proof is in the pudding we did alot of testing and actually scrapped what we had left of the Matsui activator and just moved over to the one by cci.
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just brought home a quart of new ink. No issues at all. Something definitely happened to my ink. At least I know I'm not crazy though...
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The activator does work with the others, but when you run out, make sure and use CCI's activator. There is a difference, some folks say they are all the same, but they really aren't. Not only does it not stink as bad there is a noticeable difference in your outcome, the proof is in the pudding we did alot of testing and actually scrapped what we had left of the Matsui activator and just moved over to the one by cci.
ZFS is ZFS regardless of where you buy it or who manufactures it.
What IS different is the grind size/particle size.
The smaller the particle size, the more readily it is dispersed/absorbed by the ink.
CCI distributes a smaller grind/particle size. It is what I use here and it is highly preferred.
You can also mix your ZFS into warm/hot water to "pre-disperse" it. This mixes into the waterbase ink even better.
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I usually do the warm water bit as it does make a difference, especially toward the bottom of the pail. Good to hear the grind is finer with CCI. I'm definitely excited for my sample to arrive.
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just brought home a quart of new ink. No issues at all. Something definitely happened to my ink. At least I know I'm not crazy though...
In, and of itself, discovering some defective ink is not an accurate measure of one's mental health. Look what business you picked, and where you hang out, for instance.
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just brought home a quart of new ink. No issues at all. Something definitely happened to my ink. At least I know I'm not crazy though...
In, and of itself, discovering some defective ink is not an accurate measure of one's mental health. Look what business you picked, and where you hang out, and for instance.
My wife would agree with you. :D
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I assume you are adding the water and printgen first, then after thoroughly mixing, adding the zfs last? Sometimes you will end up with an unusable mess if you toss in everything at once.
Other possibilities is your ink froze/thawed one night. That would roach a whole bucket pretty quick. How's the shop temps after hours?
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Also, it may have froze/thawed in a UPS truck somewhere on the way there...
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shop is insulated, but has no central air of any kind and we have had some freezes recently, BUT those were all before the last successful run I did with that bucket of ink. I'm almost thinking I messed up putting the lid on properly, or maybe the temp fluctuations back and forth finally got it as this last week has finally warmed up to normal 50+ degree nights. Either way the new bucket is working fine so whatever...
I can't wait to test the CCI and the Magna, even if I end up sticking with Matsui.
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As of today Matsui is now a part of these boards and we will do everything possible to help while answering technical questions as best we can.
For this thread I would like to request the lot number of the product in question. The cottage cheese effect is common when the product exceeded it life.
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You will see a huge huge difference, even with color matching with the base. The CCI Dbase, or even Magna's base are our favorites. Both can also print, un activated as a just plane water based color. The only thing with the CCI coloring, even though their software can help you achieve and almost exact pms right out of the box, you will go through more of it than you did with the matsui pigments. The magna pigments are alot like Matsui in that they are higher in concentration so you go through less pigment to make a color, but the pricing of the CCI is very very good, and unless you are mixing gallons it's really not that bad, it's amazing how many images you can print with the CCI Dbase, so we have learned to mix more accurate amounts per job an minimize waste. CCI dialed it in very good. The only thing I wasn't too happy with Magna is that the pms software is all calibrated to Uncoated, not that huge of a deal, but you just have to go through and make sure the match will be close to coated pms swatches. I still use the matsui printgen and fixerN out of habbit and never have wash out issues, so we stick with that combo.
Have you ever tried our DSFP product? It is by far the best in the market and known to print through very high mesh counts, which is very important in the fashion industry. If not, we would be happy to send you a sample for you to evaluate and review. PM me your address and will get you a sample of both the DSFP clear base and white. We also have a mixing software online at www.matsui-color.com (http://www.matsui-color.com) which has been recently updated to use fewer components and works very well when using different Matsui bases.
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I spoke to my supplier about lot numbers, but unfortunately I had put the ink into a new bucket and discarded the original when I purchased it. In the future I will document the lot number when I transfer containers. The 5 gallon buckets y'all use are horrendous when it comes to being able to re-seal the lids, so I always put them in a new bucket with a better lid. The plastic around the lip cracks and bends easily and getting a good seal after initially opening them has been a problem on every one I have purchased so far. I purchased both this 5 gallon of white and a 5 gallon of brite base at the same time, and the brite base is still working perfectly.
Don't get me wrong, I love your product and I am invested pretty heavily when it comes to the pigments and additives, but I am currently testing other whites. I have been wanting to test other whites for a while and this experience basically just pushed me to finally do it.
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Have you ever tried our DSFP product? It is by far the best in the market and known to print through very high mesh counts, which is very important in the fashion industry. If not, we would be happy to send you a sample for you to evaluate and review. PM me your address and will get you a sample of both the DSFP clear base and white. We also have a mixing software online at [url=http://www.matsui-color.com]www.matsui-color.com[/url] ([url]http://www.matsui-color.com[/url]) which has been recently updated to use fewer components and works very well when using different Matsui bases.
I was not impressed with the DSFP white when testing.
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Thanks for signing up Matsui (is that your first or last name?)
I don't use many of your products but I do love your metallic. That stuff is the bee's knees.
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Matsui discharge is not best. Only cci, rutland and magna ok. Matsui introduce new thiourea based discharge but still not good.
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Thanks for signing up Matsui (is that your first or last name?)
I don't use many of your products but I do love your metallic. That stuff is the bee's knees.
Ebscreen,
Thank you for the compliment and hope that one day you reach out to us to learn more about our other solutions.
Matsui is a family last name and the Presidents full name is Masa Matsui. My name is Jesse Martinez. :)
Best,
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I spoke to my supplier about lot numbers, but unfortunately I had put the ink into a new bucket and discarded the original when I purchased it. In the future I will document the lot number when I transfer containers. The 5 gallon buckets y'all use are horrendous when it comes to being able to re-seal the lids, so I always put them in a new bucket with a better lid. The plastic around the lip cracks and bends easily and getting a good seal after initially opening them has been a problem on every one I have purchased so far. I purchased both this 5 gallon of white and a 5 gallon of brite base at the same time, and the brite base is still working perfectly.
Don't get me wrong, I love your product and I am invested pretty heavily when it comes to the pigments and additives, but I am currently testing other whites. I have been wanting to test other whites for a while and this experience basically just pushed me to finally do it.
The Bright White Discharge has a heavy load of white pigment to get the brightness which can also cause the cottage cheese look which you can try mixing very well to see if it goes back to its original body shape. As for performance, we have customers who mix 75% Bright White Discharge with 25% Bright Base Discharge. Have you tried this option?
Also, I will pass on the information about the buckets and see if we can find a better solution. We really appreciate your feedback on this matter.
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Matsui discharge is not best. Only cci, rutland and magna ok. Matsui introduce new thiourea based discharge but still not good.
Noortrd,
Not sure where you are located, but I am in the USA and we are not allowed to sell a Thiourea based discharge due to the Magna patent.
Which other discharges of ours have you tried? We have more than 5 different ones. What are you looking for in a good discharge ink? Do you need Eco friendly?
We want to help you find the best solution. I am sure the other companies have a great product, but most interested on what you do not like about ours. Feedback is very important to us (Bad or Good).