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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: whitewater on March 10, 2014, 01:48:14 PM
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So for the press like the Sroque, (right)lol..the screens movedown to print and deflect up. The tables just go around. I was wondering, to me it seems like alot of movement for the screens. I sort of like the tables coming up to the screens.I was reading the other post about the anatol press and there was mentioning of that press and i did see it at the show last year.
Well my question is: would over time, with the screen head moving, what the wear and tear like? how is the registration a few years or whatever?
am i wrong to think its too many moving parts?
I do not have any experience with them, but i was just wondering?
Rob
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My MHM's drop screens to tables and hold registration perfectly and have for years.
If you think about it, lifting tables to screens is the same amount of wear, just in the opposite
direction.
Personally, I think dropping screens is the way to go.
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I love the dropping screens idea, and I certainly see all the benefits...
however,
you do have a lot more wear points on a press like the CH3... figure minimum of 2 (probably 4?) extra cylinders (or servomotors?) per screen to drop and raise the screen.
On the sRoque, I'm pretty sure it uses a central cylinder or servo motor to lift/lower all the screens, and you 'disable' them individually by disconnecting the arms.. or at least that's what I think I saw the last time I looked at one in person.
not sure how the MHM does it.
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Having had both now rather screens go down for sure.
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i figured wear and tear on both, but was just wondering on registration..guess not a big deal then..just a thought that came over me sitting here..LOL
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Heads going down are the way to go! I was soooooooo thrown off by them for years, but keep in mind the old American Arrow presses and the like have heads that lowered. S.Roque(and I'm pretty sure MHM) presses have had lowering heads for 30 years. I'm sure Rich or someone else can chime in how long the CHIII or Alpha 8's have. I personally have seen a 18 yr. old S.Roque with who knows how many millions of impressions printing a 4cp without issue. I can answer the question about the S.Roque presses because I know more about them, but I am pretty sure the MHM's(aside from the E-Type) all raise and lower with 1 cylinder. That is how the S.Roque YOU's function, the ECO has individual pneumatic cylinders per print head to raise and lower heads that are turned on.
It is kinda funny, I was just thinking the other day of starting a "poll" of who likes tables that raise/lower or heads that raise/lower... IMO I would wager that anyone that has used a press that lowers the heads instead of the table, would prefer that method....
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Heads going down are the way to go! I was soooooooo thrown off by them for years, but keep in mind the old American Arrow presses and the like have heads that lowered. S.Roque(and I'm pretty sure MHM) presses have had lowering heads for 30 years. I'm sure Rich or someone else can chime in how long the CHIII or Alpha 8's have. I personally have seen a 18 yr. old S.Roque with who knows how many millions of impressions printing a 4cp without issue. I can answer the question about the S.Roque presses because I know more about them, but I am pretty sure the MHM's(aside from the E-Type) all raise and lower with 1 cylinder. That is how the S.Roque YOU's function, the ECO has individual pneumatic cylinders per print head to raise and lower heads that are turned on.
It is kinda funny, I was just thinking the other day of starting a "poll" of who likes tables that raise/lower or heads that raise/lower... IMO I would wager that anyone that has used a press that lowers the heads instead of the table, would prefer that method....
M&R introduced the Formula Series of high production automatic textile presses back in the 90's that featured a non raising carousel and individual ift/lower print heads.
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The fist Automatic Printing machines made in America had raised and lowered heads. They would be the Arrow Multiprinter and Precision Oval
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ok so i watched the video of the c3..i see where that works fine...I was thinking of the sroque (the green ones, correct?) because those had so much more travel..looked like a carnival ride...
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Good to differentiate between whole head dropping (MultiPrinters, Ovals, RotoTex, S-Roques) and screens dropping.
(MHM, Formulas, CH3/Alpha)
MHM's use two air cylinders for screen lift/drop. I believe the CH3's use four.
Are MHM's the only machines that have a print arm that can lift up separate
of the screen carriage? I don't know that I could ever really live without that.
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Heads going down are the way to go! I was soooooooo thrown off by them for years, but keep in mind the old American Arrow presses and the like have heads that lowered. S.Roque(and I'm pretty sure MHM) presses have had lowering heads for 30 years. I'm sure Rich or someone else can chime in how long the CHIII or Alpha 8's have. I personally have seen a 18 yr. old S.Roque with who knows how many millions of impressions printing a 4cp without issue. I can answer the question about the S.Roque presses because I know more about them, but I am pretty sure the MHM's(aside from the E-Type) all raise and lower with 1 cylinder. That is how the S.Roque YOU's function, the ECO has individual pneumatic cylinders per print head to raise and lower heads that are turned on.
It is kinda funny, I was just thinking the other day of starting a "poll" of who likes tables that raise/lower or heads that raise/lower... IMO I would wager that anyone that has used a press that lowers the heads instead of the table, would prefer that method....
M&R introduced the Formula Series of high production automatic textile presses back in the 90's that featured a non raising carousel and individual ift/lower print heads.
What ever happened to the Formula 5070's and such? I always thought those things were badass! Someone is parting one out on eBay now, maybe I can modify my anatol.... ;D
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I've used the Centurian with the heads moving and carousel static and now the opposite and I prefer the latter but I've not used a newer style press like the 3 or Sroque. There are way more moving parts to the print heads going up and down or one BIG part moving up and down so it could be half a dozen of one, 6 in the other. I liked the idea of just having a large central hub moving one big part up and down rather than potentially 10 heads going up and down but we're comparing an early 90's centurian to a newer RPM so you'd be pretty dumb not to prefer the RPM. On the Centurian, each head had it's own cylinder moving the heads up and down and not a central hub moving all the heads. I know when all the heads are moving up and down on an older machine it can get LOUD. I'll always like the central off contact over moving an individual print head but it wouldn't be a deal breaker if I had to move every print head up or down on a 6 color job as long as the adjustments were quick and accurate. If you get a press that gets sloppy in that department and the click style barrel adjusters don't move the screens up precisely the way you want them then I could see moving from 100% poly performance wear to hoodies as being a disaster. Now it's a couple punches of a button and we're ready for sweats, no matter how many colors the job is.
Some of the things that I've become used to with the pallets moving up and down versus the print head could be forgotten quickly with the right press and if it's done right like the 3 and Sroque then I doubt I would miss much. We never had any of the parts that were associated with the heads moving on the centurian go bad but one thing I did think about was how much more simple it was to have the pallets moving as a single component. There is one lift cylinder compared to 8 on the centurian, and then the 16 pivot points that required grease versus the one central bushing on the RPM.
Look, whichever press you currently have will be the bees knees and the other version will suck so bad you can't believe you ever used anything else :). I'd find a way to use either one to it's full potential and one day I'll have used each version for many years and could better comment on which one is actually the best design...but not today.
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Good to differentiate between whole head dropping (MultiPrinters, Ovals, RotoTex, S-Roques) and screens dropping.
(MHM, Formulas, CH3/Alpha)
MHM's use two air cylinders for screen lift/drop. I believe the CH3's use four.
Are MHM's the only machines that have a print arm that can lift up separate
of the screen carriage? I don't know that I could ever really live without that.
The centurian heads raised up high but not without the screen carriage. I thought I'd miss that feature but I didn't with the RPM. It's pretty easy to clean a screen on press and we do it so rarely that it's a forgotten thing now.
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Heads going down are the way to go! I was soooooooo thrown off by them for years, but keep in mind the old American Arrow presses and the like have heads that lowered. S.Roque(and I'm pretty sure MHM) presses have had lowering heads for 30 years. I'm sure Rich or someone else can chime in how long the CHIII or Alpha 8's have. I personally have seen a 18 yr. old S.Roque with who knows how many millions of impressions printing a 4cp without issue. I can answer the question about the S.Roque presses because I know more about them, but I am pretty sure the MHM's(aside from the E-Type) all raise and lower with 1 cylinder. That is how the S.Roque YOU's function, the ECO has individual pneumatic cylinders per print head to raise and lower heads that are turned on.
It is kinda funny, I was just thinking the other day of starting a "poll" of who likes tables that raise/lower or heads that raise/lower... IMO I would wager that anyone that has used a press that lowers the heads instead of the table, would prefer that method....
M&R introduced the Formula Series of high production automatic textile presses back in the 90's that featured a non raising carousel and individual ift/lower print heads.
What ever happened to the Formula 5070's and such? I always thought those things were badass! Someone is parting one out on eBay now, maybe I can modify my anatol.... ;D
The replacement for the Formula series is the Challenger III.
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I would much rather change 64 linear bearings on the screen holders then the center shaft bearing on the press.
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I would much rather change 64 linear bearings on the screen holders then the center shaft bearing on the press.
Center shaft huge deal to change. Mainly after Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrdubyabbbbbbbbbbbbe stands on center of press. ;)
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For those who've never seen a Centurian in action, here is what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI)
Yeah. Total beasts.
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For those who've never seen a Centurian in action, here is what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI)
Yeah. Total beasts.
no crap! what a huge beast!
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For those who've never seen a Centurian in action, here is what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqfxfz13bI)
Yeah. Total beasts.
no crap! what a huge beast!
First auto I worked with was a Centurian 8/10. It was about the size of a 16 color Formula press. Held registration about as tight as an infant's grip.
:o
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It might be worth noting that in graphics printing, the head always moves. Some presses have moving plattens, like inline presses, 3/4 autos and cylinder presses, but the head moves in some form or fashion.
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As for registration. I have heard some people say that the center lift is what causes more registration problems because of radial deflection. I'm sure there's somebody on here that understands and can explain this whole lot better than me.
Murphy37
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Both methods have their place and at this point I'd choose a press based on it's printing features, print head controls, main control panel functions first and then move on to other things like how does the screen come into contact with the substrate. The parts associated with the heads moving up and down should outlast most every other part of the press. The center shaft assembly will certainly outlast most every other moving part or component of a press as well so I wouldn't worry too much about the longevity and reliability of those two methods. Maybe it's common to wear out the center shaft on a round press and it's just not talked about very often? I personally haven't heard of too many instances of that happening and I try to keep an open ear out for that sort of thing.
If a sportsman had all the same features it does now except the screens moved up/down and a Ch 3 had everything it does now except the pallets moved up and down, would anyone choose the sportsman if money wasn't a concern?
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We currently run a weird offshoot of a centurian, and i prefer the way it runs much more than the little gauntlet we have.
We've spent alot of time (i.e. money), on our Xpress, and it holds registration like a champ. From what i understand, as many of you have pointed out as well, these machines are beasts, but like any auto, if they are not cared for, the quality deteriorates.
With that being said, I'd 100% pay the extra money to have a press that the heads go down, instead of the tables being set up.
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I love the central off contact on my sportsman. That being said I do some things that having the ability to easily adjusting the individual heads off contact would be nice ( especially if I can cut and paste that from the control panel ). That's a good question if they cost the same what would you pick? ::) for me that's still a wait and see how parts last.
Murphy37