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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: JJPrint on March 31, 2014, 07:56:51 AM

Title: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: JJPrint on March 31, 2014, 07:56:51 AM
Anyone willing to share their experiences with switching to MHM?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: jsheridan on March 31, 2014, 08:20:21 AM
What would you like to know

I have a 16 color 4000 and a 14 color Xtreme on the floor



Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Sbrem on March 31, 2014, 08:46:47 AM
We have a Synchroprint S-Type, a 10/12, getting on to 10 years old. We love it. I think you'll find that all of the MHM users like them very much.

Steve
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: TCT on March 31, 2014, 08:55:13 AM
Killer pre reg system. The only negative things I have heard have nothing to do with operation or characteristics of the machine. Think you will be hard pressed to find a unhappy owner.

Sorry that is nothing technical, but that is what I found when we were considering one!
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: JJPrint on March 31, 2014, 09:10:05 AM
Does the use of bushings at the ends of the screens create any issues?  We use a dip tank in the cleaning process.  On that Extreme press (newer model I believe).  How do you like it compared to the 4000?  Any issue with getting parts in the US?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on March 31, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
if done right, bushings are not a problem with the dip tank. We put a little bit of epoxy on the frame before screwing them in. Easy peasy!

99% of the parts are readily available in US and can be had the next day. I've only run into one part not being available that could have held up the press so far. At the same time, I don't want you to think that they are M&R, not even close, but they'll keep your press running.

now for the ugly part. . . dealing with Hirsch can be a nightmare. There is zero good will extended to the customers. Once the press is on your floor, you are on your own (and problem resolution can take months). If there wasn't for Rodney (head tech who is readily available even on the weekends and odd hours) I would not consider buying a press from them! And this is from a die hard MHM fan!

Also, I would look hard into the S-type rather than the Xtreme.

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: jsheridan on March 31, 2014, 10:51:11 AM

Also, I would look hard into the S-type rather than the Xtreme.


The Xtreme IS an S-type, a different version but still an s-type at heart.  This is the machine to have if you only have 1 press or are looking to move into MHM as it's amazingly universal, will hold a jumbo screen and allows you to print sleeves with ease. Very easy to set and run for all your fill work.

The 4000 is the production beast that is best suited for bigger run stuff in both image size and quantity. Need to print from collar to seam at 21" wide, this is the machine to do it. Want to print a 1 color left sleeve, this is not the machine you want to use for that.

As for parts and maint.. no this is not the M&R 24/7 parts network and never will be. If something breaks, you call tech and they ship if that day. If you live 3000 miles away, then you're looking at a couple days to ship. Same holds true from M&R and just like them, if you need it tmrw and want to pay for the shipping, then your mhm part can be there at 8am also.

Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: TCT on March 31, 2014, 11:26:05 AM
JJ where are you located? SPSI is also now selling these(due to some EXTREME dislike for Hirsch from what I understand) so if they are in your area they also may be a option. Unfortunately I assume they probably report back to Hirsch, but at least you have a go between to ride...

We have tabs on our screens(not MHM ones) and maybe 20 of the first batch began to corrode a bit from the dip tank. It actually did not effect the registration or the function, just looked poor. I am not sure if the MHM tabs are made out of the same thing or if corroding is a issue, but from my experience the few that had a negative reaction it was only a cosmetic issue. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on March 31, 2014, 11:38:03 AM

Also, I would look hard into the S-type rather than the Xtreme.


The Xtreme IS an S-type, a different version but still an s-type at heart.  This is the machine to have if you only have 1 press or are looking to move into MHM as it's amazingly universal, will hold a jumbo screen and allows you to print sleeves with ease. Very easy to set and run for all your fill work.

The 4000 is the production beast that is best suited for bigger run stuff in both image size and quantity. Need to print from collar to seam at 21" wide, this is the machine to do it. Want to print a 1 color left sleeve, this is not the machine you want to use for that.

As for parts and maint.. no this is not the M&R 24/7 parts network and never will be. If something breaks, you call tech and they ship if that day. If you live 3000 miles away, then you're looking at a couple days to ship. Same holds true from M&R and just like them, if you need it tmrw and want to pay for the shipping, then your mhm part can be there at 8am also.

you are correct, S-type is the Xtreme! I had it confused with the other X named press. . .

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on March 31, 2014, 11:54:24 AM
MHM was the first press we ever saw when shopping.  Hirsch was enough of a turn off we took them off our list. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on March 31, 2014, 12:15:30 PM
I don't understand how Hirsch has had this bad rep for so long but no changes are made.  The MHM is unbelievable but if Hirsch is who you have to rely on then forget about it.  It has to cost MHM a lot of money but the top person at Hirsch has been there for a long time and the relationship is the same as it was 10 years ago and it's still terrible service and support from what everyone that has dealt with them says.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: bimmridder on March 31, 2014, 12:20:09 PM
Alan, I dealt with Hirsch when we did embroidery. Can't think of anyone in this biz I had to deal with that has worse customer care. Seems like they are all on the world's longest coffee break. I'm only speaking of the company, not the equipment they sold.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on March 31, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
They basically talked down to us and sure we were small timers but that isn't how you earn customers now or for the future.  We were standing next to a 70k MHM and he acted like we'd never be able to buy one of those.  Our CHIIID cost a good clip more than that machine does....  jokes on him. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: screenprintguy on March 31, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
when we were shopping for our first auto, we had recently got a 6 head Tajima through Hirsch, that experience, I can say was great. The sales guy, who is no longer with them, and the tech who installed us, who is actually one of the brother's from Jaks Prints did the install, great guy, very thorough and helpful. That part was all awesome! We called our sales guy about the MHM's, we were looking at the 10 color Etype, he wasn't "allowed" to speak with us about the machines he had to forward us to the head of their MHM department. He called us, at first was very informative, but very heavy on knocking every single other brand of machine out there as all being garbage and the only way to go was with mhm. The way that came across was pretty sour in taste, since I had a friend point me to the TAS Florida contact information and this same guy was also the regional sales and service contact for them, but wait, everything but mhm was garbage hmmmmmm. Anyways, I know how it is selling a techy item, he was right in several aspects that what the mhm's had to offer was just not avaialble on other machines, but the way it was presented was sour. No biggy, give us a price. We see it, at this time we were also looking at the Diamond back, yep no where near as sophisticated, but in the end, with the 9 co options, we would be able to print 8 colors, and the price was half of what we were being quoted. Then a new guy comes to our door as a new addition to the mhm expert team,  he seemed to do nothing but talk about how great tas and MR presses were, "but he's the mhm guy"????? "HES NO LONGER WITH THEM EITHER". It was really squirmy. We looked over what we were doing business wise, and made the choice to go with M&R, we knew we needed service, and there were so many people that had M&R, it was easy to connect with other willing shops to give us tips and trick until we knew what the heck we were doing. 2 years later at another trade show, we "thought" we needed something bigger and faster and were doing contract work for an embroidery guy out of Orlando with ties to Hirsch who kept pushing us to look into an Stype. He said, come to the show this weekend we will talk to the man, and I'll get you hooked up. So we did, he totally talked to my wife and I like we were two derelicts not worth his time. A comment even came out that we were better off staying with what we had, as if we weren't even considerable to be a customer. Talk about pissin off my little lady, woooooooooo. Anyways, that was enough to make us say, no thanks. As we were still thinking we needed to swap out to something bigger, faster, in pops in Rich Hoffman, and Tim Forman. They spent the whole day digging into our press and sorting out a couple of things which made not only a big personal impression on us, but also showed how the owner of such a big company truly cared about the little guys as well as the big factories. Here's the guy who could call any tech and have them come out and re-level our machine, and he rolled up his sleeves and got greasy. Now on the other hand you have that other guy who, "works" for a "distributor" of MHM, and he didn't even want to "talk" to us, unless we had a check in hand. Rich knew he wasn't walking into our door to try and sell us a new bigger faster machine, in fact it was his opinion that we learn how to maximize the use of our DB and re-evaluate in a couple of years. He could have easily said hey here go for this or this, but honestly, his experience more than likely told him, these guys aren't ready yet and they just don't know it. We followed his advice and it got us here. So Rich thanks for that, truly!

Personally I feel MHM would sell more machines , as they are really  nice pieces of gear if the rest of the package was in proper order, but with all the years of these stories being out, they obviously don't feel the same way. This is just my experiences, not trying to dog anyone out, or pump anyone up, it is what it is!
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: JJPrint on March 31, 2014, 03:16:20 PM
Thanks for the input.  I guess the good news for MHM owners is that the machines don't break down much.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: mk162 on March 31, 2014, 03:21:30 PM
i feel this industry is dogged by a lack of sales/service on the equipment end from most vendors and that is why M&R dominates the US market.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: screenprintguy on March 31, 2014, 03:34:08 PM
Thanks for the input.  I guess the good news for MHM owners is that the machines don't break down much.

Right, don't get me wrong, I feel from what I've seen and heard from owners, the machines are totally awesome. Personally though, I'm scared to get into such a techy piece of gear that is serviced by a company with a shaky record and that has only 1 or 2 service techs in the entire country. Anything can happen, it's not always the fault of a machine, but mainly operator error that causes breakdowns. I think though, any company is going to be a day or two before they could get a tech to you, any company, and then whether parts are available and can get to you is a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: cbjamel on March 31, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
I sell to company that was US owned, they had agreement to not go into Europe if the people in Europe wouldn't come into North America. Well the Europe company bought the other. They tried to train the US and Canada based sale people. Its basically a heavy piece of equipment used in winter. They were trying to sell to people in 3-pc Italian suites didn't work. So our people had to show them how we sell, in Carhartts and jeans etc.. They would stand there and do nothing our guy's we up on it say what can be modified for each location etc..

Different countries different mentalities of selling.

I prefer US, I myself have had multiple calls and talk with Rich Hoffman the owner of M&R.  In person and on the phone.
I love that the owner is that involved daily.

Shane
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Sbrem on March 31, 2014, 03:58:32 PM
Pretty much what I thought, great machines, bad vendor. We bought ours before Hirsch took over. For service, we know some techs around who are pretty sharp, and the guy at Machine Solutions, Galen? (my partner usually talks to him), knows them pretty well, and has helped us. But for someone without the connections, working with Hirsch may not sound  like a lot of fun.

Steve
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Screened Gear on March 31, 2014, 04:26:25 PM
Since I have a MHM I will put in my 2 cents.

I wanted a MHM after looking at all the presses for 2 years at ISS long beach. 



Why I like MHM presses (in no particular order)

The operation system on the MHM  is easy to use. Compared to the other presses its like a Mac vs a PC (an old pc).

Waterbase ink changes are easy. Pop out the screen. wash out the ink in the washout booth and back to the press, goes right back into place.

Screen breaks down on press - burn new screen with the FPU and it goes right back into the exact place the old screen was.

You can do fine registration changes while the press is running shirts. No locking of the micros no jumping of the screen when you lock them down.

Auto lock and unlocking of the pallets. This saves tons of time when re-positioning the boards. There is also no handles, leavers or anything under the boards to get shirts caught on while loading.

Uses very little air, I have a cheap compressor that I bought just to get the press up and running and it does such a good job keeping up with the press and not running very much I have no need to get a better/quieter one.

No leveling of pallets needed. Not sure what this means. I have only had an MHM and I have never re-leveled the pallets in over 2.5 years. All my prints still come out great. The way the squeegees and flood bars attach they self level to the pallets.

Great customer service experiences. I have never had a problem with Hirsch. Rodney and Gavin Kidd are amazing. Every time I call Hirsch they call me back within and hour. I have had my press registered and had a new registration pin put in. There was some waiting on that but If I wanted to pay more I could have had that done a lot faster. The way I had it done with Gavin and Rodney helping, it was cheap and my press has run perfect ever since.


Here is some videos of my MHM

AUTO WARS 1 - Micro Registration
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html)

AUTO WARS 2 - Screen Holders
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html)

AUTO WARS 3 - Squeegees & Flood Bars
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html)

AUTO WARS 4 - Pallets
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html)


Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on March 31, 2014, 04:32:05 PM
I think it's pretty much a travesty.  Let's not beat around the bush, the MHM machines themselves are the total package.  Pound for pound there isn't anything better.  Other's can compete but nothing actually beats an MHM.  If you have the lower end MHM up against any comparably priced machine and you only made the choice based on the machine then I doubt many would choose against the MHM.  So why isn't the MHM the preferred press in the US?  SERVICE and SUPPORT.  If they did those two things half as good as the king of this industry then holy crap, things would be totally different.  I haven't got quotes on an MHM machine in years but I'd love to know what the Extreme goes for with a 10 color.  If it's comparable to other mid range presses like an RPM Revolution or Sporty EXG I'd be surprised.  Something tells me a 10 color is around the 100K mark which puts it out of range for the average one auto shop.  Then if you put in the rest of the equation and you don't feel that you get treated properly or once you buy a press and can't get service then what would be the benefit to buying one?  Expensive and poor support for a press doesn't work for any of us.  Cheap and no support, obviously there are a few manufacturers that make a living with those standards and high priced with great support get's a lot of love here too.

I'd buy an MHM in a heartbeat if I felt comfortable with the after-sale support.  I love the machines, and I know others would too but without decent customer service and support they'll never be anything more than an afterthought for most of us. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on March 31, 2014, 04:38:33 PM
I will second Rodney's service and support. He is the guy I was talking about. With his help the problems are usually fixed in less than an hour over the phone. Our press was down once in last five years and he had us the replacement parts at the shop next day (saturday morning). This was a combination of parts so we had the right one to fix the problem and we could send the rest back. So lost production time was one afternoon and maybe a total of 6-8 hours for little repairs since we bought it (in 2009).  An example of the problems we had was the On/Off switch (for the computer module, not the main power) that broke and he had us go inside the panel and rewire it out until we get the replacement.

As with any other press, a lot of it can be done with guidance over the phone, but there has to be somebody by the press that's comfortable with a screwdriver and wrenches.

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on March 31, 2014, 04:40:30 PM
I think it's pretty much a travesty.  Let's not beat around the bush, the MHM machines themselves are the total package.  Pound for pound there isn't anything better.  Other's can compete but nothing actually beats an MHM.  If you have the lower end MHM up against any comparably priced machine and you only made the choice based on the machine then I doubt many would choose against the MHM.  So why isn't the MHM the preferred press in the US?  SERVICE and SUPPORT.  If they did those two things half as good as the king of this industry then holy crap, things would be totally different.  I haven't got quotes on an MHM machine in years but I'd love to know what the Extreme goes for with a 10 color.  If it's comparable to other mid range presses like an RPM Revolution or Sporty EXG I'd be surprised.  Something tells me a 10 color is around the 100K mark which puts it out of range for the average one auto shop.  Then if you put in the rest of the equation and you don't feel that you get treated properly or once you buy a press and can't get service then what would be the benefit to buying one?  Expensive and poor support for a press doesn't work for any of us.  Cheap and no support, obviously there are a few manufacturers that make a living with those standards and high priced with great support get's a lot of love here too.

I'd buy an MHM in a heartbeat if I felt comfortable with the after-sale support.  I love the machines, and I know others would too but without decent customer service and support they'll never be anything more than an afterthought for most of us.

Pretty much dead on. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: ZooCity on March 31, 2014, 04:56:22 PM
What's the difference between the X-type plus and the S-Type Extreme?  Looks like the X-type is now the entry level model then the S-type or do I have that backwards?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on March 31, 2014, 04:57:42 PM
What's the difference between the X-type plus and the S-Type Extreme?  Looks like the X-type is now the entry level model then the S-type or do I have that backwards?

I think you have that right but I seem to remember another press that came out a year or so ago that doesn't exist by that name anymore. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: screenprintguy on March 31, 2014, 05:19:59 PM
Alan, I know when we got our quotes, the best quote we were offered , and this was on a new E-Type, was an 8 color 50K shipped and installed. I think, the 10 co E-type they quoted around 70K shipped and installed. If I remember, in there was 30 newmans and their film positioning unit. So at the time, not knowing what we know now, and not having the funds, we went with the DB 9 color to be able to print 8 colors. Now, those prices here, people may have gotten better deals, I don't know, but that's what I can remember. I'm sure I have the sheets somewhere. Thats a few computers and several hard drives ago, lol. At any rate, they are obviously sweet sweet pieces of gear. Just a tid bit scary buying a high dollar piece of tech that you are going to train people to use that could break it and you may be on your own to fix it because the folks who are supposed to support it really don't do a great job in the support area. Maybe they have gotten better, I don't know. But I can say the way that dude talked to my wife and I, it would be tough to get her to sign off no matter how awesome something is lol.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on March 31, 2014, 05:23:07 PM
What's the difference between the X-type plus and the S-Type Extreme?  Looks like the X-type is now the entry level model then the S-type or do I have that backwards?

X-type replaces the E-type. It is an improved version with many parts and systems from the S-Type. There is an entry level press in the works that will be air driven and should be half price of the other presses. They are finally looking into an entry level auto. Pictures of the prototype are on the interweb already. . .

While for a first auto S-type might be too much money, I would tell the prospective buyer to beg, cheat and steal so they can skip the lower level presses. Not that they are so bad, but the S-Type is that much better. It really is a benchmark ALL other presses should be measured against. (Yes, yes, I know, many would disagree with me or do not believe me, but hey it's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on March 31, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
8 color E-type for 50K would have been hard to pass up.  And if it came with 30 newmans and the regi system...nice.  Now a 10 color E at $70K is also a decent deal in my opinion and the accessories with it make it about the best bang for the buck you could get.  Our RPM was somewhat close to that and there are a few things on the E-type that I'd say are better than the RPM and a few things on the RPM that are better but overall a very comparable machine.

If that X-type is $75-80K for a 10 color then that is a lot of press for the money.  But if you feel alone the first time a part goes bad then it's really not much of a deal at all.  Like I said, a travesty.  I am critical of another company that has come really close to having a complete product but they fail in the social area badly and fall just barely short with the machines and the MHM problem resembles that.  Because nothing has changed over the years I really wonder if the European guys know exactly what the problems are over here?  If they know yet do nothing about it then they are just as guilty. 

Man, looking at those auto wars videos again...MHM has the machine aspect figured out.   
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: TCT on March 31, 2014, 07:45:58 PM
Here is the pic of the one Pierre was mentioning....
(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/twincitytees/EVO_zpsd720eb42.jpg)

(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/twincitytees/57d7ac0c8c3d11e3a9d60e8644d622dc_8_zpsf48efe05.jpg)

Apparently it is supposed to compete with the Diamondback(pricewise).... I don't think they are going to offer it in a pneumatic index, and like Pierre said the standard heads it comes with are air, but maybe the option to upgrade. But the thing that REALLY gets me on this is, it doesn't look like it works with the MHM pre reg system! I do not know that for a fact, but if they made it and it did not work with the MHM pre reg system I think that is a very poor move...

@Alan I don't know this for 100% but the impression I got from the MHM guys in Europe was that Hirsch was doing a good job, they have a lot to deal with but that they are doing well none the less :o
The quote I got close to two years ago for a X-Type 12/10 was roughly $85k. FOB SC and that was not with install or anything extra....
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: ebscreen on March 31, 2014, 08:39:31 PM
Check your first pic, see that big toothed area near the bottom of the pallet carousel?
Looks like belt drive to me. More and more that seems to be the way to index a machine.

I see holes in the screen holders that would correspond to where the screen frame pins/bushings
would be. I'd be very surprised if they didn't make it compatible with the FPU. My guess is they are going
for compatibility with both pinned and non pinned frames. Lord knows the thought of having pins on all
my screens scared the beejeesus out of me at first, now I wouldn't have it any other way.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Screened Gear on March 31, 2014, 10:20:39 PM
The evo is a cool little press. It is belt drive. It uses the 3000 or 4000 registration pins so that is super strong. You can get it with the mhm reg system with the bushing holders. The only thing I have not seen is if you can get heads that are ac. This press was on their Facebook page awhile ago. There maybe more info on there now.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Maxie on June 04, 2014, 04:23:22 AM
I have had a MHM E Type for 8 years and it's a amazing machine, I am in Israel so I get support from the factory in Austria so I don't have the problems you guys are having with Hirsch.
I usually manage to sort out problems with the factory tech support on the phone.     I've had to change one or two head boards (electronic boards) but I do this myself.       I have a 10 color printer so even is one head isn't working I can keep printing until I get the part.
Since I bought it I've had a total of one week of down time, there was a weird problem with the 24V transformer that showed the correct voltage standing but once it started working the voltage dropped.    Took us a while to find the problem.
I am about to buy a second machine and went to Fespa Munich to see the new MHM machines.
The new names are a bit confusing,
they have a entry level SA-EVO, .
X type Plus which has replaced the E Type, the heads now lift up.
S Type Xtreme (new S Type).
4000
Oval
I am looking at the S Type Xtreme, a 14 color unit with 10 print heads, 2 flashes and 2 empty stations (cooling stations after the flash).
I can add print heads to the cooling stations later if I want to.
I have never used any other machine but the MHM is so good I wouldn't consider buying anything else.
You guys should contact the factory in Austria and get them to sort out the problems with Hirsch.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GaryG on June 04, 2014, 09:38:34 AM
You go Maxie!
Show us some of your stuff.

E to X with moving heads sounds fantastic!
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: T Shirt Farmer on June 04, 2014, 10:38:37 AM

now for the ugly part. . . dealing with Hirsch can be a nightmare. There is zero good will extended to the customers. Once the press is on your floor, you are on your own (and problem resolution can take months). If there wasn't for Rodney (head tech who is readily available even on the weekends and odd hours)

This simply not true. I had some issues with the new E Type press I bought from Hirsch and can tell you that they spent MANY thousands of dollars sending Rodney out and then a tech from MHM Austria to try to fix the machine. When that repair was not to my satisfaction they again spent MANY thousands of dollars replacing the E machine with a S machine, shipping, rigging, installing a new press crating and sending back the broken E machine. Was it what I expected when I made switch from TAS to MHM..no. Was it painful..yes... did Hirsch take care of the problem.. you bet your ass they did. Now Hirsch may not have a kiss M&R ass fan club here and there business style is a bit shall we say different but in the end they are a stand up team representing an amazing piece of equipment. 2.5 years on the S Type with one broken air fitting, the press is pretty damn cool and does what it advertised to do. One must remember in other parts of the world MHM is THE major player in textile press's.


Robert
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 11:56:33 AM

now for the ugly part. . . dealing with Hirsch can be a nightmare. There is zero good will extended to the customers. Once the press is on your floor, you are on your own (and problem resolution can take months). If there wasn't for Rodney (head tech who is readily available even on the weekends and odd hours)

This simply not true. I had some issues with the new E Type press I bought from Hirsch and can tell you that they spent MANY thousands of dollars sending Rodney out and then a tech from MHM Austria to try to fix the machine. When that repair was not to my satisfaction they again spent MANY thousands of dollars replacing the E machine with a S machine, shipping, rigging, installing a new press crating and sending back the broken E machine. Was it what I expected when I made switch from TAS to MHM..no. Was it painful..yes... did Hirsch take care of the problem.. you bet your ass they did. Now Hirsch may not have a kiss M&R ass fan club here and there business style is a bit shall we say different but in the end they are a stand up team representing an amazing piece of equipment. 2.5 years on the S Type with one broken air fitting, the press is pretty damn cool and does what it advertised to do. One must remember in other parts of the world MHM is THE major player in textile press's.


Robert

Robert, I know they took care of you and they have helped us out on more than one occasion. But, I also know a guy that bought a new press and had it sitting in his space unable to use it for the first year. When it was finally fixed, it broke after 30 days and it took them several months to fix it. In 18 months of owning a new press he had 30 days of use out of it!

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on June 04, 2014, 12:16:28 PM
That sucks that they are capable of doing what they did for Robert yet the next story is so appalling that I think I'd be in jail for assault if that happened to us.  Just thinking about it makes me insane. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 12:19:05 PM
That sucks that they are capable of doing what they did for Robert yet the next story is so appalling that I think I'd be in jail for assault if that happened to us.  Just thinking about it makes me insane.

he is closing down, they have essentially put him out of business (at least that's what I understand).

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Frog on June 04, 2014, 12:29:47 PM
If nothing else, the man at the helm of Hirsh is enough to make me not want to give them a nickel.



Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: T Shirt Farmer on June 04, 2014, 01:36:49 PM
If nothing else, the man at the helm of Hirsch is enough to make me not want to give them a nickel.

Andy,

Have you had any personal dealings with Hirsch?  without knowing the details from the said out of business party mentioned above how can one comment on the situation.  While Hirsch may be difficult they are ethical and leads me assume there is more to the story than be known in this thread. Even if Hirsch would not resolve any issue I am certain that if Claus from MHM heard about this and it was a valid issue MHM would make certain it was cleaned up. For all we know this out of biz guy may have not paid the bill and never received the unlock code for the software to run the press, it could be a thousand different scenarios. I by know means am a flag waiver for Hirsch but do not like to see anyone thrown under the bus because another vendor buys steak dinners for everyone.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 01:53:47 PM
If nothing else, the man at the helm of Hirsch is enough to make me not want to give them a nickel.

Andy,

Have you had any personal dealings with Hirsch?  without knowing the details from the said out of business party mentioned above how can one comment on the situation.  While Hirsch may be difficult they are ethical and leads me assume there is more to the story than be known in this thread. Even if Hirsch would not resolve any issue I am certain that if Claus from MHM heard about this and it was a valid issue MHM would make certain it was cleaned up. For all we know this out of biz guy may have not paid the bill and never received the unlock code for the software to run the press, it could be a thousand different scenarios. I by know means am a flag waiver for Hirsch but do not like to see anyone thrown under the bus because another vendor buys steak dinners for everyone.

 I am going to answer this even though it's addressed to Andy. My concern is that my story is not correct and that Hirsch is unnecessarily getting a bad rap here. SO to elaborate a little, yes, the majority of the story came from the owner, but I also heard from the other side which confirmed the story to at least some extent. I did not get the full story from the seller side, but what I did hear matched what the owner said. What makes this very, very difficult for me is the fact that I introduced the guy to the MHM sales team and he bought the press based on my recommendation!!!

To the best of my knowledge, there are several rather large issues that MHM is aware of and letting them go unaddressed.

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: T Shirt Farmer on June 04, 2014, 02:05:38 PM
Pierre,

That is very sad situation indeed and I feel for the guy, by no means was I challenging the authenticity of your post.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: 244 on June 04, 2014, 02:35:24 PM
If nothing else, the man at the helm of Hirsch is enough to make me not want to give them a nickel.

Andy,

Have you had any personal dealings with Hirsch?  without knowing the details from the said out of business party mentioned above how can one comment on the situation.  While Hirsch may be difficult they are ethical and leads me assume there is more to the story than be known in this thread. Even if Hirsch would not resolve any issue I am certain that if Claus from MHM heard about this and it was a valid issue MHM would make certain it was cleaned up. For all we know this out of biz guy may have not paid the bill and never received the unlock code for the software to run the press, it could be a thousand different scenarios. I by know means am a flag waiver for Hirsch but do not like to see anyone thrown under the bus because another vendor buys steak dinners for everyone.
I assume you are talking about M&R when you make this statement about steak dinners and if not my apologies. If so yes we sponsor two dinners per year for the members of this forum but not so they can throw anyone under the bus. It's done because I like the industry and when I see how this forum is run in my opinion it's a positive to the industry,especially the smaller printers. I believe anyone who has attended the dinners can attest to the fact nothing negative has ever been spoken about any manufacturer nor anything positive about M&R. I have only attended one dinner out of the four we sponsored and it was more like a bunch of guys and girls talking about the industry and the old days. Again if I am off base I apologize but if not this is a unfair statement about the forum and M&R.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 02:43:20 PM
Pierre,

That is very sad situation indeed and I feel for the guy, by no means was I challenging the authenticity of your post.

Robert, you expressed feelings which I share with you! It is hard to hear/believe of something like it happening and it always makes you wonder (myself included, even in this case!) if there is a part of the story missing. So I am with you, it just sounds like it's too much to be true even after hearing it from both sides. . .

pierre

Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
If nothing else, the man at the helm of Hirsch is enough to make me not want to give them a nickel.

Andy,

Have you had any personal dealings with Hirsch?  without knowing the details from the said out of business party mentioned above how can one comment on the situation.  While Hirsch may be difficult they are ethical and leads me assume there is more to the story than be known in this thread. Even if Hirsch would not resolve any issue I am certain that if Claus from MHM heard about this and it was a valid issue MHM would make certain it was cleaned up. For all we know this out of biz guy may have not paid the bill and never received the unlock code for the software to run the press, it could be a thousand different scenarios. I by know means am a flag waiver for Hirsch but do not like to see anyone thrown under the bus because another vendor buys steak dinners for everyone.
I assume you are talking about M&R when you make this statement about steak dinners and if not my apologies. If so yes we sponsor two dinners per year for the members of this forum but not so they can throw anyone under the bus. It's done because I like the industry and when I see how this forum is run in my opinion it's a positive to the industry,especially the smaller printers. I believe anyone who has attended the dinners can attest to the fact nothing negative has ever been spoken about any manufacturer nor anything positive about M&R. I have only attended one dinner out of the four we sponsored and it was more like a bunch of guys and girls talking about the industry and the old days. Again if I am off base I apologize but if not this is a unfair statement about the forum and M&R.

Rich,

as already stated many times over, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!!

what many here don't get a chance to see is that there are truly no strings attached by any support provided by Rich and few other companies. Not one of them asked for anything! As incredible as this sounds, Rich, Peter (Nazdar), Erik (Action) and others have on many occasions offered/extended help and since we started the forum, NOT ONE request has been sent our way!!! Actually, our independence has been brought up by Rich first, and few others since then, and they all expressed their desire to keep the forum non aligned to any distributor or manufacturer. Any positive comments are here solely due to the product and service offered by the supporters.

We still thank you for the steaks though!

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Frog on June 04, 2014, 02:57:50 PM
My comments about one individual pertained to the way I watched Hirsch stock prices tumble to pennies as it was about to go private, then, the subsequent "bail-out" of US Screen, to the then subsequent decimation of TSPMB, and the communications that I had with both Paul, and whoever is running their forum now.

I have had no financial dealing with them. As I pointed out, I wouldn't, if I could at all help it.


Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: tonypep on June 04, 2014, 03:05:34 PM
Nothing to do with this post but I do have a little goody coming my way from Erik. New thread later
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on June 04, 2014, 03:10:05 PM
It's sorta ridiculous to call a fan a brand a "kiss ass". I mean why fault people for screaming out loud that they are happy with their equipment which is often in hopes others have similar experience.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on June 04, 2014, 03:17:04 PM
Pierre, do you think that the shop owner would be willing to share his experience here with more details?  My jaw has yet to come back up from the floor having read the last few posts.  That is some "are double you be" behavior except worse.  That is probably the worst automatic press transaction that I have ever heard of, I'm in awe.  I really hope that there is so much more to the story, but it sure doesn't seem like there is a happy ending to this situation.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on June 04, 2014, 03:23:11 PM
Pierre, do you think that the shop owner would be willing to share his experience here with more details?  My jaw has yet to come back up from the floor having read the last few posts.  That is some "are double you be" behavior except worse.  That is probably the worst automatic press transaction that I have ever heard of, I'm in awe.  I really hope that there is so much more to the story, but it sure doesn't seem like there is a happy ending to this situation.

we are printing an order for him now, so I can ask. . .

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on June 04, 2014, 03:29:10 PM
Pierre, do you think that the shop owner would be willing to share his experience here with more details?  My jaw has yet to come back up from the floor having read the last few posts.  That is some "are double you be" behavior except worse.  That is probably the worst automatic press transaction that I have ever heard of, I'm in awe.  I really hope that there is so much more to the story, but it sure doesn't seem like there is a happy ending to this situation.

Saxby still doesn't have his 3rd press last I heard, nor his money, so I think that takes the cake. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: 244 on June 04, 2014, 05:11:17 PM
Pierre, do you think that the shop owner would be willing to share his experience here with more details?  My jaw has yet to come back up from the floor having read the last few posts.  That is some "are double you be" behavior except worse.  That is probably the worst automatic press transaction that I have ever heard of, I'm in awe.  I really hope that there is so much more to the story, but it sure doesn't seem like there is a happy ending to this situation.

Saxby still doesn't have his 3rd press last I heard, nor his money, so I think that takes the cake.
There are much worse than Saxby by double?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Screened Gear on June 04, 2014, 05:38:12 PM
 ???
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on June 04, 2014, 05:46:27 PM
If I had to choose I'd take Saxby's situation over losing my business because of my choice of equipment manufacturer.  Neither is worth a crap and there would be physical harm done if I were in either situation but Jeff at least got something (yeah, it's debatable) to print jobs with although none of them worked as advertised at any time at least he could fight through it to get jobs out the door.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on June 04, 2014, 06:15:29 PM
If I had to choose I'd take Saxby's situation over losing my business because of my choice of equipment manufacturer.  Neither is worth a crap and there would be physical harm done if I were in either situation but Jeff at least got something (yeah, it's debatable) to print jobs with although none of them worked as advertised at any time at least he could fight through it to get jobs out the door.

Neither situation is good for sure, but I can't imagine paying for something and not getting it at all.  Even a pos sitting there not working at least something happened. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Binkspot on June 04, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
Saxby got a raw deal and even though he's out the money which I hope he gets back at least some of it in the long run he is much better off with the equipment he got to replace brand X.

As far as getting the shaft, not mentioning names but might I remind you of the older gentleman on the west coast.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: 3Deep on June 04, 2014, 09:04:24 PM
Wicked crazy stuff here I'm reading
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: GraphicDisorder on June 05, 2014, 07:03:17 AM
Saxby got a raw deal and even though he's out the money which I hope he gets back at least some of it in the long run he is much better off with the equipment he got to replace brand X.

As far as getting the shaft, not mentioning names but might I remind you of the older gentleman on the west coast.

Forgot all about him, Leon or a something like that wasn't it?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: ZooCity on July 14, 2014, 03:37:35 PM
Reviving this very informative post. 

A 12 color X-type is currently at the top of my new press list.  We're about a week, maybe 2, away from the purchase right now.  I wanted to ask if there were any X-type users out there that could chime in on the machine since it's relatively new. 

To clarify the new MHM line up (not counting the entry level one or the oval):

X-type Plus
S-type Extreme
AC4000

The AC is the same as it has been more or less.  The X and S are a bit of a revamp in design and unlike the prior E type v. S, the X-type looks nearly identical to the S now.  Gavin at Hirsch described their only major differences as operator ease type of features.  I do imagine that the "chassis" or whatever you call the main skeleton of the S type is a little more burly since it goes up to 16 color v. the X only going to 12 and that it's a more "universal" production machine.   

I wanted to see if anyone could confirm that the presses are that similar though.  My inclination is to the S but it's $30k more over the X in the same size which is significant.   If someone has both an S and X type extreme in their shop I would really like to hear from them.  If anyone doesn't want to post, pm or email me and I'll give you my cell. 
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: blue moon on July 14, 2014, 04:03:57 PM
I would go fro the S-type even if you have to cut down the number of colors. 10 color press will print almost everything you can think of. Also remember, these are honeycomb platens so you can print after the flash (if you put a fan and slow down the flood). In last 5 years of owning our 8 color, I've turned down 3 jobs total for lack of heads.

pierre
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: alan802 on July 14, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
I would go fro the S-type even if you have to cut down the number of colors. 10 color press will print almost everything you can think of. Also remember, these are honeycomb platens so you can print after the flash (if you put a fan and slow down the flood). In last 5 years of owning our 8 color, I've turned down 3 jobs total for lack of heads.

pierre

Even though I'd love to have a 12, we have never lost a job or turned one down because we only have a 10.  We have had to revolve jobs due to high color count but I'm not sure we could have done it in 1 revolution with a 12, especially if we had a 3rd flash unit.  We print directly after the flash all the time and rarely is it a problem to the point where we have to quit doing it.  3 flashes on a 12 color though would be pretty cramped.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: TCT on July 14, 2014, 04:49:39 PM
 

To clarify the new MHM line up (not counting the entry level one or the oval):

X-type Extreme
S-type Extreme
AC4000


There is the SA-EVO as well, though I am going to assume that one will not be on your radar.




I am triple tasking as I type, but I'll call you in a bit I have a few people you can talk to(X-Treme and X-Type users)
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: T Shirt Farmer on July 14, 2014, 05:03:16 PM
Being a S Type owner I would suggest the same as Pierre, drive a deal on the S Type 10 color, these are proven machines world wide, you will never need to buy another press. these units are extremely robust to say the least... we are 2.5 years into the S press and have not needed to make a single tech support call. My guess is that the $ difference between the units i mainly in the quality of the components ans would be the same with most mfg offering 2 versions of a comparable machine.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: ZooCity on July 14, 2014, 06:05:31 PM
I actually really want a 14co in here.  Thinking more along the lines of greaser screen/cool downs/flashes and also thinking about the fact that HSA often needs additional colors v. platisol.  Maybe (hopefully) that changes as the inks develop but right now, to print full opacity, clean bright HSA colors (think 185c or a clean blue) that don't have much white in the formula, you are looking at two screens per color, not a base and one screen for each on top ala platisol.  You're also looking at flashing if it's a large area of ink.  I doubt fixes like the Kook Mist will work with HSA as it will likely rehydrate the ink film so cool downs could be crucial. 

Most of our work could be easily handled with a 10 in a single revolution if we just did plasti and DC but I'm not sure where things are headed for the future right now and would rather have our bases covered up front and a press that will last a long, long time for us. 

Alex, I'll call in a sec. 

Thanks everyone for the input here and pm/emails, I'm going to talk to all of you!
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Gilligan on July 14, 2014, 06:15:07 PM
I sent an email to hirsch about the evo... I wanted price on 6 and 8 color (list is fine as I'm just crunching some numbers to see what is in our ball park).  Can it be had in a 9/10 and would it fit through a 36" door.

They came back requiring all my details so they could have a rep call me.  I said I just wanted a couple of simple questions answered and didn't need to be called quarterly by the sales rep after being fed into their database.  Round and round same thing, about policy on not stepping on other reps territory and such (come to find out there IS only one rep, so that was a flat out lie!). Finally Gavin emailed with the info (well, still nothing about getting it in the doorway), and he apologized for the way OTHER companies had treated me in the past!! I assume he was referring to the quarterly sales calls I mentioned.  I explained that his apology was incorrectly focused.

The info I was after can be found on the web without even calling most of the other manufactures!  I would never deal with Hirsch after being flat lied to just to get my info into a lead database... Never!

Still think MHM is a bad a$$ machine and it's possible that the Evo is in the cards for us... But it won't be from Hirsch!
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Sbrem on July 14, 2014, 06:18:32 PM
I would go fro the S-type even if you have to cut down the number of colors. 10 color press will print almost everything you can think of. Also remember, these are honeycomb platens so you can print after the flash (if you put a fan and slow down the flood). In last 5 years of owning our 8 color, I've turned down 3 jobs total for lack of heads.

pierre

We have a 10 color S-type, and I don't think we've lost a single job in the 11 years or so that we just couldn't print. Of course, that may just mean that we haven't been asked to do a 14 color print in that time. And Gil, you can always cut the door, we had to take a small section out of a concrete wall to get our machine's hub out of the elevator area (we're on a 4th floor). And it is indeed a bad-ass machine.

Steve

Steve

Steve
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Gilligan on July 14, 2014, 06:31:46 PM
Yeah... we could.

I'd rather just take out a bay window and put it through there and reinstall the window (which is an option).

But it's hard to think about doing that when the Sabre will fit through the 36" door.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Nation03 on July 14, 2014, 10:01:56 PM
What was the price on a 6 color Evo?
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: KevWilso on July 14, 2014, 10:19:47 PM
Yeah... we could.

I'd rather just take out a bay window and put it through there and reinstall the window (which is an option).

But it's hard to think about doing that when the Sabre will fit through the 36" door.

Get what you want and put the window back.  You will use your press every day; the window not so much.
Title: Re: Making the switch to MHM
Post by: Gilligan on July 14, 2014, 11:43:50 PM
What was the price on a 6 color Evo?

Quote
The price for the SA Evo 8/6 is $34,750.00.

Oh, and I was mistaken, he did say it would fit through the 36" door and comes in a 9/10... so he answered all my questions... just took them phishing for my contact info for 5 emails before they answered those 3 questions and sent me a lame brochure.