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Artist => General Art Discussions => Topic started by: ericheartsu on April 20, 2014, 04:37:29 PM
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We had client that asked us to make some things for them, (hats, tees, and stickers). Client was a NIGHTMARE to work with. Several of the files were not print ready, and we charged them for our time to make them print ready.
Now they are asking for us to send these files over. I don't think we should have to send them files that we worked on, as they are our artwork, but i didn't know what standard protocol is with this type of situation.
what would you all do?
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We had client that asked us to make some things for them, (hats, tees, and stickers). Client was a NIGHTMARE to work with. Several of the files were not print ready, and we charged them for our time to make them print ready.
Now they are asking for us to send these files over. I don't think we should have to send them files that we worked on, as they are our artwork, but i didn't know what standard protocol is with this type of situation.
what would you all do?
If you bills them for art they own it in my opinion. If you did not.....then I would not send it.
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I have a disclaimer on some of my invoices that addresses this issue (sorry I don't have access to it right now)
It essentially states something like " fees paid for the art work on this job do not include a license for use and/or reproduction elsewhere"
I generally do make that available to them for a price both reasonable, and often based on somewhat intangible considerations such as actual time spent rather than time estimated and charged.
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Um if they paid you for art give them the art, if they paid for your time to make their art usable for you and it was not stated that way give them the art. Shoot them a PDF of it and move on.
Roger
RT screen designs
Www.rtscreendesigns. Com
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We had client that asked us to make some things for them, (hats, tees, and stickers). Client was a NIGHTMARE to work with. Several of the files were not print ready, and we charged them for our time to make them print ready.
Now they are asking for us to send these files over. I don't think we should have to send them files that we worked on, as they are our artwork, but i didn't know what standard protocol is with this type of situation.
what would you all do?
If you bills them for art they own it in my opinion. If you did not.....then I would not send it.
Each can do what they all want individually, but the lay states that what (you) do in house, what you create, plates, screens, enhanced technical files, etc, are all (yours). When someone pays fora service, they are paying for your skilled service. To give that away, is like a Mechanic who had the best tools and experience to have to hand over his tools because they paid for his service.
Art fees, screen fees, are all actually "labor fees" not fees for the customer to own the actual item and you should indicate those (as such) on your invoices.
Again tho, each can do what they want.
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The law actually states that what (you) do in house asa business providing a service, what you create, such as plates, screens, films, engravings, enhanced technical files, etc, are all (yours). You "technically, do not even need to explain this, as it's "the law". As we know, not everyone knows every inch of the law, so it's common to assist your customer with a definition or explanation explaining what they are buying and what they are paying for.
Think about this, when they pay a screen fee, and they asked for the screens, would you give it to them because they paid a screen fee? What about films, what about any balance of unused PMS mach mixed up that they paid an extra fee for? Do you give them that?
When someone pays for a service, they are paying for your skilled service not your materials that carry your skills along with it... to another shop. I'm sure you all also build in to account for the phone time, office paper under day to day exp. but this thinking would also then require you to hand over all paper materials to take the order (since somewhere, they are paying for them) right? Kinda ridiculous when you look at it deeper.
Art fees, screen fees, etc. all micl. fees are all actually "labor fees" or fees for making the materials needed to produce their order. They are not fees for the customer to own the actual item and to assist you in educating your customer, you should indicate those (as such) on your order forms.
As always, Each individual can and will do what they want in the end.
Dan
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send them the original files back that they sent you. they paid you for your time to work on the files, they don't own it...
or...if you were me...
send the films down the dryer and mail them out..free of charge!
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i had something very similar recently, PITA customer, wasn;t happy with the tiny text on a pique knit shirt, but we weren't allowed to change the layout.
hi company had paid for one logo, but not the one he didn't like. So when he asked for his logo, I sent him the one that wad paid for and explained that the other was never paid for and he didn't like it, so we wouldn't be sending it to him.
He didn't take it well...but if he didn't like the final product, so why would he even ask for the file.
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or...if you were me...
send the films down the dryer and mail them out..free of charge!
You are EVIL!
I knew there was a good reason I liked you. ;)
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I'm with Dan. You do have to state things clearly, because people suck, and you can't assume anything. Them paying you for your labor you have to do in order to make their art come out on a shirt does not entitle them to the files. As Homer said, send them back the original files they sent you. Now, with that being said, you can work with them if you choose, but I don't think you actually owe them anything technically.
Steve
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just export them out as 72dpi jpeg files and send them those ;)
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they are going to take the business away from you , YOU KNOW THIS.
The fee you charged was to make their art suitable for your work and they paid you for your time and effort on that issue.
I would send them a quality jpeg of the art image you created along side the low quality original art they supplied and thank them for their business.
When they ask for the vector art or films tell them that production ready work product is available at added cost and price the snot out of the files you already have.
let us know what shakes out.
mooseman
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all this is very helpful. thank you so much!
I've sent them the digitized file, but nothing else.
of course this customer ordered 24 shirts. Always the smallest orders, biggest pains
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In defense of some of these custys, let me talk about one of mine from just a week or two back.
Plumbing company, ordered a variety of shirt colors, two different design styles, as well as hats for their crew.
They only came to me because their previous printer had closed his operation. No art, just old shirts with designs going back more than than forty years for one!
This time around, they specified that they would like copies of their new art files to not once again be left in a lurch when their new supplier, me, is gone in a few years.
I spelled out the whole thing, even how transfer of licence is not automatic in the industry, upped my art prep fee a bit, and gave them both usable files as well as peace of mind.
They warned me that they only order every two or so years, but I'm pretty sure that they will be back (if I am still pushing ink)
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When we charge to work with a customer's bad art we list the charge on the invoice as "Convert customer art for screenprinting" We do not charge sales tax because it is clearly labor. In addition when we charge contract print customers for screens we list it as "Setup Charge" and again do not charge sales tax because it is labor. All of our proof sheets clearly state that all artwork prepared for the order remains our property. If you are consistent and handle this in advance you will avoid future problems. If we have a customer that wants to take there art and go elsewhere we offer to sell them the files.
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I would charge twice the cost of the original art fee. Then they can own the design/art forever.
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My thoughts, if they are a pain or not, you were not clear about the art to them and they paid you. Do what's right pita or not. Like mooseman said send a good JPEG at minimum
Roger
RT screen designs
Www.rtscreendesigns. Com
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I had this happen with Disney of all companies. We produced designs on our own as an approved vendor and submitted them for orders. Quite often the relationship was great, we converted 3 of 5 designs to large production runs. Then one day their sourcing and art managers walked in and told us this was a great day, they were going to start producing in Asia and needed the art files. Great for them but a real headache for us who had presses dedicated to their production. We were lucky in that we never charged them for the art and refused to give them the art bags. Had we charged them for art however, they would have been able to take the mechanicals out of the shop. We honored their copyright and never reprinted them, but our relationship with them went south in an instant. I respect their outsourcing decision, but most customers don't get the concept that we do extra work on art to get the print business as well. I too have sent the films down the oven for less than stellar clients when they demand the films!
Good ideas here though to protect your investment in time and effort. However if the customer is a pain, sending film down the oven, or giving them 72dpi images seems appropriate! Better to lose a customer than to have a customer that consumes time with no knowledge of what is best for his art or product.
As far as screens go, we listed it as a pre-press charge with the disclaimer that all images (not screens) are reclaimed within 6 months if not reordered.
Al
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Its seems pretty simple to me. We charge for art services, not Artwork! If they supply us a crappy jpeg then we charge for the time and resources to convert into something our business can use. We do not charge them for artwork that they can have, they already supplied us with their art we just worked it so we could use it.
Now with all that said if it is a good dusty then i have no problem helping them out with their art for whatever reasons they need it, if they are a PITA then they get the sorry but we only charged you for the labor we had to put into making their crappy art wok.
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my view is if somebody is leaving they are probably not that happy anyway, so no need to pour salt int he wound.
That being said, I don't give away seps, especially sim process seps. I will send the art file we created them from, but it's up to the new shop to figure out how we did it.
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If you bills them for art they own it in my opinion. If you did not.....then I would not send it.
I agree with the ownership bit. I try to live by the mantra that you can't keep customers by holding their art ransom. In fact I often quote that when they try to come to me and only get a low res. version of their artwork from the competitors they are leaving. I usually re-do the artwork, for free if we can, and go from there. digitized emb. logos cost us $10, so that usually a cost we can eat. Sim-process seps for screening are another matter, but we usually find a middle ground for price of re-doing them and move forward witha now-loyal customer who will never go back to the company that would let them have their own logos in a usable format.
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Customer is leaving because they feel the grass is greener somewhere else basically right. If they find out the grass isn't greener do you want them to come back or not? If you hold their files ransom they may not think of you when they decide the other person isn't better.
Again this is all in the context that you have charged them for artwork. If you haven't I wouldn't give up files either. Of course bending over backwards over 24pcs jobs this guy brought you is pointless as well.
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We ddef. do not want to keep this client, they made our life a hell for three weeks while doing their order. I don't mind giving clients their files, but I've always felt that any art we did, was ours, and the client was paying for our labour on setting the file correctly
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If you dont want them back this is sorta easy then. Piss them off by not giving it to them they wont be back. Well except every year when they re-ask you for their files. LOL.
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This topic came up the other year and the way you word the line item on your invoice and how it's worded in your terms of service dictate how the fee is applied.
If you don't have terms of service or something in the way to describe what happens when a custy wants to purchase the 'art'.. then you had better get busy making them.
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I charge an "art preparation fee" , so repairing bad jpeg files ,ideas cleaned up, text added art resized etc. are charged art prep. and that is only to make it screen printable and for no other use and no ownership for them implied. Has worked for me.
If they ask for there art back I will send back whatever they sent me not what it became when cleaned up.
I only send jpegs for proofing so that the art can't be sent elsewhere and reproduced easily. This has worked for me so far.
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Chances are, if they are asking for the vectors, they're never coming back! I agree with what most posted...that you should charge them a fee that would at least cover the next job or two they would have done to compensate for the loss of exclusivity of the vectors.
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I wouldn't say "never" coming back. It's common to have a portion of customers jump around looking for that next lower price. Other printers offer a lower price, people have conversations and the next thing ya know, your customer is sending another printer a job...that you might not be aware of that your missing out on. Then, if it works out, they come back to you and ask for their art files for other jobs. It's a never ending revolving door business I think (for a portion) of the customers. There will always be those who you just can't please that feel "you" ripped them off or something. It's like seps, someone stops using me because I charge too much or take too long and they go off to another cheaper, faster guy/gal. Some time goes by, a few months, a year and one day, they start sending me art jobs to sep again. It's part of the business.
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Give them a low res jpg and tell them to have a nice day.
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Client was a NIGHTMARE to work with.
You already answered your own question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAuSTQUa3tM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAuSTQUa3tM)
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Send them a JPG file :)
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send them the files
cut bait
move on
anything else just means you get to continue dealing with a pain in the ass.
Not worth it IMO
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^^^ This.
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Cutting a pain in the ass is the best way to go, but that invites more pain in the asses as they know they can bully you into whatever they want from you, sometimes you have to make a stand.
Darryl
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We had client that asked us to make some things for them, (hats, tees, and stickers). Client was a NIGHTMARE to work with. Several of the files were not print ready, and we charged them for our time to make them print ready.
Now they are asking for us to send these files over. I don't think we should have to send them files that we worked on, as they are our artwork, but i didn't know what standard protocol is with this type of situation.
what would you all do?
If you bills them for art they own it in my opinion. If you did not.....then I would not send it.
I agree on this.
Now what do you have to send them? If its layered art you can send them a flattened art file. If its vector you can send them a flattened Jpeg file. They did not pay for your working files did they? You don't have to send them the layered and separated files since that is your normal process. They just paid for you to get the crap art they sent to the point you can print it. They didn't pay for the separating that you normally do on jobs. It really comes down to how much of a dick you want to be. I personally send everything I don't care if they paid for it or not. I am not in business to try to hold customers hostage. If they want to go elsewhere fine.
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But, what if the designs, although not "print ready", were in fact already conceived and laid out in a state that could be viewed as completed logos/artwork? In these cases, all the screenprinter artist is doing is taking the complete design and adjusting it to be compatible with the very limited parameters that screenprinting allows.
My advice...if you do not want to hand over the printready files you generated film/screens from, do not charge for it and build that cost in elsewhere.
What if you charge for film? Imntbho, the client then owns that film.
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That's part of the reason i tend to quote a unit price on shirts that includes everything, but isn't itemized.
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Why fight with the client?
Maybe someone gave them a cheaper price, they will try them and maybe they will not be happy with the results,
If you give them a hard time they will never return. Keep the door open.
We often have customers who don't understand that we charge for our quality and service, they try someone cheaper and come back after getting lousy results.
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Why fight with the client?
Maybe someone gave them a cheaper price, they will try them and maybe they will not be happy with the results,
If you give them a hard time they will never return. Keep the door open.
We often have customers who don't understand that we charge for our quality and service, they try someone cheaper and come back after getting lousy results.
Cheaper does not always mean worse results.... So there is the possibility they leave Shop A and find out Shop B is better and cheaper. It happens.
Remember a customer will pay more for more, they will not often however pay more for less. It's possible some people that perceive they are charging more for more and actually aren't.
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Why fight with the client?
Maybe someone gave them a cheaper price, they will try them and maybe they will not be happy with the results,
If you give them a hard time they will never return. Keep the door open.
We often have customers who don't understand that we charge for our quality and service, they try someone cheaper and come back after getting lousy results.
what was stated above. Also this client was a giant PITA
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You have to love when they come back & the other shop won't give them the art back, & now their asking if you are going to charge to redo it. Priceless
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i've lost more customers that eventually find their way back..some of them more than once or twice.