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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: alan802 on June 30, 2014, 09:39:46 AM
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Best picture ever. And thanks for sharing the great tutorial.
Keep in mind that the courser mesh counts will have longer exposure times because the mesh is thicker and it holds more emulsion (more emulsion = longer exposure).
Have you ever had an "a-ha" moment that made you feel like a complete idiot at the same time? I just did.
And another benefit of thin thread mesh that we didn't discuss, shorter exposure times due to overall thinner stencil/emulsion per screen. When you put the entire package together it kind of makes sense that suppliers really love standard mesh counts over thin thread. Less ink is used, less emulsion is used, faster exposures, bulbs last longer, less pressure needed, squeegee blades last longer, mesh lasts longer, stencils last longer, less strokes needed, PRESS lasts longer, and a few other benefits that all add up to being not good news for suppliers.
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And another benefit of thin thread mesh that we didn't discuss, shorter exposure times due to overall thinner stencil/emulsion per screen. When you put the entire package together it kind of makes sense that suppliers really love standard mesh counts over thin thread. Less ink is used, less emulsion is used, faster exposures, bulbs last longer, less pressure needed, squeegee blades last longer, mesh lasts longer, stencils last longer, less strokes needed, PRESS lasts longer, and a few other benefits that all add up to being not good news for suppliers.
Alan, that sounds a little paranoid. It reminds me of the internet posts of oil companies killing the inventors of engines that get ridiculously high mileage, or the greedy pharm companies that have cures for cancer, but don't want to release them.
In my shop, I have at least a half dozen conventional static screens with small repaired holes. $hit happens. Those same screens's ultra high tension, thin thread counterparts would be toast. The added fragility is enough to scare some folks off without the need for a conspiracy to keep s-mesh out of their hands.
Now, if the conversation continues in the conspiracy direction, I don't even know what section to which the tangent will get split! LOL!
So let's stick with LED's and general exposure issues.(which already is a little tangential from the initial post)
Thin threads, conventional threads, white threads, yellow, orange, or magenta; all counts, each should be tested for its own optimal exposure time.
Just to point out, this did indeed get split from the Baby Joe 2000 thread.
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And another benefit of thin thread mesh that we didn't discuss, shorter exposure times due to overall thinner stencil/emulsion per screen. When you put the entire package together it kind of makes sense that suppliers really love standard mesh counts over thin thread. Less ink is used, less emulsion is used, faster exposures, bulbs last longer, less pressure needed, squeegee blades last longer, mesh lasts longer, stencils last longer, less strokes needed, PRESS lasts longer, and a few other benefits that all add up to being not good news for suppliers.
Alan, that sounds a little paranoid. It reminds me of the internet posts of oil companies killing the inventors of engines that get ridiculously high mileage, or the greedy pharm companies that have cures for cancer, but don't want to release them.
In my shop, I have at least a half dozen conventional static screens with small repaired holes. $hit happens. Those same screens's ultra high tension, thin thread counterparts would be toast. The added fragility is enough to scare some folks off without the need for a conspiracy to keep s-mesh out of their hands.
Now, if the conversation continues in the conspiracy direction, I don't even know what section to which the tangent will get split! LOL!
So let's stick with LED's and general exposure issues.(which already is a little tangential form the initial post)
Thin threads, conventional threads, white threads, yellow, orange, or magenta; all counts, each should be tested for its own optimal exposure time.
Yeah, that's almost exactly like those examples Frog. So what is your take on why the standard mesh counts became "standard"? I'd like to hear another take on why things have become the way they have. If the standard mesh is only the standard because it's what benefits the textile printer the most in the long term then I'm completely wrong with my paranoia.
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Fragility
Hearken back to the time when dip tanks were not the norm, but elbow grease and stiff scrub brushes were.
Btw, I seem to remember thin thread mesh being available many years ago I don't think it just came out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well, FWIW it did take a long time to get the Volkswagon TDI here in the states...
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Fragility
Hearken back to the time when dip tanks were not the norm, but elbow grease and stiff scrub brushes were.
Btw, I seem to remember thin thread mesh being available many years ago I don't think it just came out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's common knowledge thin thread has been around 20+ years. I have to rely on certain guys who were in the industry long before me and have more knowledge than I when it comes to things like this. I know most of the time it looks like I'm just a lemming who follows the words of our JC blindly, but it's really not that way at all. But in the best book every written on textile screen printing it is quite clear that thin thread is what we should all be using yet for reasons outside of the printers control it isn't that way at all. And I've printed with standard and thin thread so again I'm not blindly following Joe's words in this case. In the future the guy doing the mesh ordering will be in charge of what mesh count he/she uses at their shop and that's the way it should have always been.
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So what is your take on why the standard mesh counts became "standard"? I'd like to hear another take on why things have become the way they have. If the standard mesh is only the standard because it's what benefits the textile printer the most in the long term then I'm completely wrong with my paranoia.
To change the first word in my last post now that I am in front of a real monitor 9rather than my phone) and see the actual question I was supposed to answer.
Compromise.
The standard threads, offered acceptable results along with a certain toughness to stand up to a degree of bullying.
Now that folks are concentrating more on less and less hand, reclaim becoming less abusive, and availability of the mesh increasing, they are growing in favor.
I still don't see smoke filled rooms of meetings of screen print suppliers mapping out strategies to keep these out of your hands to sell you more ink.
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Well, FWIW it did take a long time to get the Volkswagon TDI here in the states...
How else could you get folks into Smart cars that get no better mileage? LOL!
Ironic that most diesels that we saw for years were Mercedes also.
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Love the thread title. ;D
I'd guess price would have something to do with it as well, but mostly on the supplier's side. Since the thicker thread is cheaper, those making screens to sell go with that in the same way many printers are always looking for a cheaper route with their inks. The less the supplies cost, the more the profit margin.
I say this as someone who didn't even know thin thread mesh existed until a short while ago, but not because I wasn't looking. In my own history of ordering screens, I've never seen one advertised with the second number available (as in 150-48) until ordering my thin thread statics a few weeks ago.
Of course there are those who may be buying screens and don't know the benefits of thin thread mesh, who would also go with the cheaper purchase. But I do believe if there was more information out there on the benefits, as well as a better understanding of the overall costs incurred from mesh in any shop, a lot more printers would be using it. Now that I've seen the results first hand, I'm looking to stock my shop with S-Mesh as quickly as possible and I'm sure many others will too, now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag.
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No one has brought up the tension question yet. Forever, high tension was the God of advanced screen printing. You were either above 40n/cm or you were a hobbyist.
Considering that thin mesh cannot attain tensions that high, I'm sure that played some role in thicker thread mesh becoming the standard.
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Love the thread title. ;D
Hopefully Alan forgives me for not pointing out that this is the title I gave to the thread that was split from the Baby Joe 2000 discussion.
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Yes there are many "smart cars" out there that can do even better on gas than what we have here, have higher emmissions standards and I'm sure are as safe as those tin cans and they aren't available here and WON'T be available here.
It's quite ironic.
Also our Alstyle rep came in the other day and mentioned that when he moved from California (CARB), that his car that just past smog inspection wouldn't pass the Texas smog inspection. Funny that the most "eco" friendly state has more laxed rules than a red gunslinging state (totally tongue in cheek as the gun laws of texas kind of suck).
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Yes there are many "smart cars" out there that can do even better on gas than what we have here, have higher emmissions standards and I'm sure are as safe as those tin cans and they aren't available here and WON'T be available here.
It's quite ironic.
Also our Alstyle rep came in the other day and mentioned that when he moved from California (CARB), that his car that just past smog inspection wouldn't pass the Texas smog inspection. Funny that the most "eco" friendly state has more laxed rules than a red gunslinging state (totally tongue in cheek as the gun laws of texas kind of suck).
This car talk is definitely straying, but what's new?
I have not heard that Texas(certain smoggy counties) smogging is tougher, but I do see that it is annual while ours is every two years. I wonder if he was close to the limit in CA in one category or so, and it went that little bit further after the move. All it takes is a bad ring on the gas cap.
There's not passing, and there's NOT PASSING! Curious about the details on stories like this.
I do know that though not part of the smog test in Texas, gun racks are required in all trucks.
We also haven't had the safety test in almost 40 years!
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Don't know the details, but he did sell the car vs fixing it... So that is that.
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I really think that fear of stretching it is what keeps it from being common. It is very delicate to handle in screen making production and requires the proper steps to successfully stretch and glue onto a frame. I think no one wants to do those steps so they either skip it or offer it at maybe 22 n/cm at best.
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I really think that fear of stretching it is what keeps it from being common. It is very delicate to handle in screen making production and requires the proper steps to successfully stretch and glue onto a frame. I think no one wants to do those steps so they either skip it or offer it at maybe 22 n/cm at best.
This.
I for one have no desire to stretch my own frames, have no desire for rollers as I absolutely know that I would not maintain them as they should. So that leaves me with s-mesh pre stretch static's or Shurloc ez frames with s-mesh panels. 98% of our work is 1-3 colors and do alot of white ink on black so I am thinking the ez frames maybe overkill. I am also concerned with the Gauntlet always keeping pressure on s-mesh and maybe prematurely wearing out pre stretched s-mesh statics
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I really think that fear of stretching it is what keeps it from being common. It is very delicate to handle in screen making production and requires the proper steps to successfully stretch and glue onto a frame. I think no one wants to do those steps so they either skip it or offer it at maybe 22 n/cm at best.
S-mesh does not require the tension of standard mesh, and still outperforms it. For instance, the recommended tension of a 150/48 is 18-28 newtons, so 22-23 would work just fine. Now you'd probably want to stretch a couple newtons higher than that so it would settle in that range (if not using rollers), but from what I've read and been told, they don't lose much from the initial stretch, and once they do settle it stays. I'm currently doing my own experiments with s-thread statics and will keep things updated as I run them through production a few times.
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This.
I for one have no desire to stretch my own frames, have no desire for rollers as I absolutely know that I would not maintain them as they should. So that leaves me with s-mesh pre stretch static's or Shurloc ez frames with s-mesh panels. 98% of our work is 1-3 colors and do alot of white ink on black so I am thinking the ez frames maybe overkill. I am also concerned with the Gauntlet always keeping pressure on s-mesh and maybe prematurely wearing out pre stretched s-mesh statics
I'd recommend purchasing a 150-48 and giving it a shot with white ink. You'll use less ink, get a more opaque print, run your press with much less pressure than usual, and so far in my experience they aren't as delicate as you might think. Seeing is believing.
In the name of science, I'm gonna treat my s-thread statics no different than my regular screens until one of them rips. I plan on going to rollers in the next couple months so I'll have some fun with these and try to bring some further info to the forum on the subject.
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I was thinking about the 135/48 vs 150/48 for several weeks.
If they both have the same thread diameter, wouldn't they have similar EOM percentage?
If so, wouldn't 135/48 give better opacity due to less mesh interference?
If this is true, then why most people are using 150 instead of 135?
For me, I bought a roll of 150/48 because of the youtube clip made by Murakami mesh.
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I would say its both the suppliers and consumers...
As a supplier, we plan on offering s-mesh screens (Filling out the dealer app today), but we are concerned with the durability of the frames... Most likely we will only warranty them through UPS... After that it is on the consumer...
This forum is sort of a microcosm of the screen printing world... We have been offering High Tension screens for over a year now, and we do have a few customers that take advantage of that service... In "most" shops that I go in to, once I tell the owner or production manager that the frames are more delicate at those tensions, they pass on it. I have a strong feeling that we will see the same from S-Mesh.
No smoke filled rooms here.. The demand simply is not high enough to get the attention of most suppliers.
I obviously see potential for creating a demand, so we will just have to see how it goes...
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I was thinking about the 135/48 vs 150/48 for several weeks.
If they both have the same thread diameter, wouldn't they have similar EOM percentage?
If so, wouldn't 135/48 give better opacity due to less mesh interference?
If this is true, then why most people are using 150 instead of 135?
For me, I bought a roll of 150/48 because of the youtube clip made by Murakami mesh.
The open area on the 150/48 is 51%, and on the 135/48 is 55%. The ink volume is 39 and 43, respectively.
Looking at the numbers, I'm guessing the 135/48 would give a slightly higher opacity, but not by much and it wouldn't outweigh the detail loss if used in place of the 150/48, depending on what your next step up in mesh count in-house would be.
From what I understand, a 120/54 or 110/71 would likely be the next step down from a 150/48 that would make it worthwhile. In this scenario, the 150/48 would be the replacement for a standard 156 and the 120/54 or 110/71 being the replacement for a standard 110. I believe Alan uses the 90/71 as well for certain jobs, and maybe he can chime in on his in-house mesh counts and why. I learned everything I know about s-mesh from him, and he really has this stuff down to a science.
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I don't know where we stand as far as how much and for how long we've used the S threads compared to others on the forum, but it's been going on about 4 years since the first time I put ink through some thin thread mesh, 150 screens with S thread right now in production with probably around 300 screens stretched total and counting retentions we're talking about maybe 1000 screens put on the roller master and I've stretched every one of them. I have busted 10 screens while on the roller master (restretching and initial combined) and 4 of those were newman roller 102N so the delicacy issue is nil here at our shop. Here's the deal on stretching S mesh: If you're good at stretching screens and have an accurate tension meter then you will not have any issues stretching this mesh. If you suck at stretching screens, then don't blame the mesh, get better at stretching screens!
If you are a plastisol printer and you've tried S mesh and you can't keep it from busting, while stretching or on press, I offer to let you come to our shop and I'll teach you how to stretch them and handle them. Everyone knows my guys have busted plenty of screens over the years but here are some facts: We had 25 newman roller mesh 205's (arguably one of the strongest mesh's in a normal shop environment ever made) in production 2 years ago and now we have 5 left. 18 months ago we had 22 150/48's in production and we have busted 7, but have almost 30 in the current inventory. The 205's at 45 newtons were technically more prone to bust than the 150/48's here at our shop over the last 2 years. They are easier to bust, no doubt, but they don't bust any more frequently than the roller mesh we have in production and that's a real world evaluation in our shop. The 180/48 is more durable than the 150's, we don't use the 135's because they are too delicate for my guys, but the 120/54's have held up great over the last year.
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I was thinking about the 135/48 vs 150/48 for several weeks.
If they both have the same thread diameter, wouldn't they have similar EOM percentage?
If so, wouldn't 135/48 give better opacity due to less mesh interference?
If this is true, then why most people are using 150 instead of 135?
For me, I bought a roll of 150/48 because of the youtube clip made by Murakami mesh.
The 135 is really good and I don't doubt a shop could make them work great for them, but I preferred having a larger gap between the 150 and our next lowest mesh, and the 135 is too delicate for our shop environment. The other mesh counts aren't too delicate. Brett is right on with his thoughts and are mine as well. The 120/54 made more sense for us and the 150 is simply too much of a workhorse for us right now and since it was the first count we had in the shop it's stayed. I could see giving up the 150 and 120's by going with a 135 and 180, that wouldn't hurt us or change our quality all that much so if someone wanted to try that combo I'd say go for it.
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Thanks for all the great comments. Yes S mesh requires a different mind set. For me it all boils down to the inks you use. Here are the areas where S mesh rocks.
Plastisol Base Plates - Brighter, whiter, softer hand base plates.
Discharge/Waterbase - more open area = stronger color and more detailed print capability with higher mesh counts that print as well as a 110T in terms of ink saturation.
High Solid Acrylics - Easier ink transfer, less hang up in the screen, brighter prints.
High Density/Gels/Puffs - Better ink transfer with less squeegee pressure. High Density prints that rest on top of the fabric for better loft.
Tensions? With the exception of the High Density Inks, none of the print processes above needs high tension. Too high a tension also means you better have your pallets dead level to each other to get the minimum pressure. One pallet out of level can require more squeegee pressure than the other pallets need. The shear quality of all the above inks doesn't require high tension. Discharge is dang near water in viscosity. This ink, WB, and HSA shear almost instantly. Plastisol is the expception. But on base plates 22n is plenty.
Where do I like High Tension? On semi solid base plates printing spot color over a solid area, especially on the head right after the flash. I like a 30-35n newton spot color screen with a 225T, 250T being able to hit that mark. 280T should be no more than 28 to avoid mesh staging, (the point at which mesh can no longer increase in tension, or reaches the dreaded breaking point.
For halftones I like a 300HD, or 300/40. Why? typically they print over a base and I want the peel to occur instantly. 300HD is capable of the 35 newton range and is less fragile. However I have many clients who swear by 350S for the way it minimizes ink build up and keeps sim process incredibly sharp. Great for stochastics.
Both high and low tension screens have specific print qualities that work. Tensions again to me are ink and print dependent. the art is the key in the mesh recipe I would choose. High end sim process like our show shirts are printed 225/40/S with 350S on the stochaistic/hybrid halftones.
For spot color I would go to 150S with 225T or 250T overprints, or a 280T. The 300HD could be substituted for the 350S for longer screen life, but in shops that have handling dialed in the ink control and minimum ink buildup printing plastisol with a 350S has non stop print benefits.
In all tech support calls my first question is what ink are you printing? Followed by what type of art. The mesh recipe is different for WB/Discharge/HSA vs Plastisol Spot, Sim or Stochaistic.
The issue of suppliers not selling much is the Godsend part. I have a 40 auto shop we converted to S mesh for base and halftone overprints. The telling factor was weighing identical prints made with 110T and 200T spot overprints, with 180S base and 225S overprints. We reduced white usage by 33%. For a 40 auto shop running double shift this was the difference in being able to make the bid stick, and yet on the back end make a lot money on the ink savings. The ink savings is real. You will use less white base plate plastisol inks.
Softer hand, brighter prints, all it takes is some care. One last thing, mesh thread is the key. The reason static stretch and glue is possible with our mesh today and is an improvement over Newmans is far less labor needed, a larger printing sweet spot, threads captured to the frame completely square, or biased stretched with threads that don't lose tension as easily. The thread we use is unique. No one else has it. It retains tension better, and reaches excellent work hardened tensions.
Al
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Great info here! Al and Alan what is your take on the LX mesh? I tried it maybe 2 years ago and dismissed it shortly after because of how fragile it seemed to be. On some advise from Pierre(thanks man) I gave it another shot, and I think since then I have maybe 20 screens with the 150LX, and haven't used a lower mesh for anything (tag press excluded). It has been a go to for a lot of our bigger bulky prints that a customer requests plastisol. Would I be better off using a 135S? I got like 5 yards of it in a few weeks ago to stretch screens for our tag printer, but hadn't really given it much thought for the regular press.
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Hello everyone. LX mesh has a couple of major differences with standard Polyester S mesh from Murakami. First off is the mesh knuckles are flatter and the RZ value is lower as a result. This allows slightly less squeegee pressure compared to Polyester S mesh and a bump in opacity as well. When the mesh knuckle is viewed under a microscope the threads appear to be going through each other, the weld is that much flatter. The thread is the other major difference. It is a Nylon outer core with a stronger inner core. The Nylon is softer and gives a little when printing white plastisol while the inner core is low elongation polymide (sp?) thread. LX is widely used for waterbase and discharge fabric printing overseas.
The fragile part is different than Polyester S mesh. If you have a lot of off contact the squeegee corners can wear through the mesh on very long runs, especially if they aren't rounded. It resists ripping a little better than S mesh.
Here are my tips on preserving S mesh of either kind:
1. Round off and sand smooth squeegee ends. Square ends are like a knife going back and forth with significant pressure on the print stroke.
2. Drop tension 1-2 newtons in the narrow direction of the frame. The high momentary tension caused by the squeegee in textile printing due to the short distance between the squeegee end and the inside of the frame is significant. Dropping a newton or two off the short direction of the frame helps.
3. Reclaim and degrease with soft sponges, soft scrub pads, soft bristle brushes. Avoid anything abrasive enough that would it scratch the back of your hand. Washing up screens shortly after printing with SC-507 helps avoid hazing.
4. Avoid laying floodbars, clips, and squeegees on the screen during set up.
5. Avoid excessive off contact.
6. If you have older presses with strong floodbar and squeegee chopper action, use tape, chipboard, to absorb the impacrt.
7. Be careful handling in dip tanks, avoid scraping corners on mesh when pulling them in and out. Some of my clients do one at a time in a dip tank to avoid screens banging into each other.
8. Moving screens by rolling rack or carts helps prevents dropping them to the floor and jolting the mesh.
9. Block out Grey bases should go on 110T, They are quite abrasive inks.
10. Avoid super high tensions. For WB, Discharge, HSA high tensions aren't needed, the inks shear very well. For white base plate plastisol 22n is optimum for print and mesh preservation.
Thanks everyone for the great responses, helps me see the issues and where we can help.
Al