TSB
screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: jsheridan on August 22, 2011, 12:45:25 PM
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How to make a Newman Roller frame in 10 minutes or less, that's the goal for any screen maker and I can show you how.
This video is for those who desire or currently use Bolt Mesh.
I was helping a friend re-stretch 50 frames last week and I stuck my GoPro on the wall and after some editing, this is what we have.
http://youtu.be/YMcKjQAr988 (http://youtu.be/YMcKjQAr988)
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I love my Go Pro camera. You can stick it on anything. Great vid!
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Question, why you tape all the sides, I think I know the answer, but let you tell me to be sure, great vid and I like the camera nice and clean vid.
Darryl
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No corner softening??
Frank
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He softened the corners with a short black object and his fingers.
I've got a questions, though. Does the white tape stretch when you retension?
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great video, but with the extra 8 min it takes I could have been printing about 100 shirts per screen...You did a kick ass job with bolt mesh, but the labor difference vs. Shur-loc is a no brainer...and we have never popped a screen due to not softening corners enough...
Sam
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I have to agree with Sam. Shur-Loc panels are everything they're cracked up to be. The only one's I've torn have been by bumping against a sharp corner. Maximum tension the easy way. Send Shur-Loc your bolt mesh to be made into panels if you've got any hanging around. They did a bunch for me and got more panels out of the yardage than I'd have gotten tearing and swearing.
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great video, but with the extra 8 min it takes I could have been printing about 100 shirts per screen...You did a kick ass job with bolt mesh, but the labor difference vs. Shur-loc is a no brainer...and we have never popped a screen due to not softening corners enough...
Sam
I guess it's your job to post the YouTube of the "2 minute Newman Roller frame" ;D
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I've broken two glasses from the sure-loc strips popping out of the frame. Not to mention the sloppy corners. I will stick to the bolt mesh. Much better screens in my opinion but thats just my 2.
Great vid John. I never thought of taping the corners like that. Now go clean that smudge off the lens.
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You used a roller table. No fair!
:P
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Give me a static frame any day, looked like he was rebuilding a FREAKIN engine. Personally I think the video it's self blows, smudge on the lens, crappy porn music, and to damn long. You owe me tens minutes! ;D
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I loved the f'in 49.95 plug at the end...priceless!
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Question, why you tape all the sides, I think I know the answer, but let you tell me to be sure, great vid and I like the camera nice and clean vid.
Darryl
I tape everything as my buddys shop is very high volume and violent when it comes to screens. Tape all the way aroud as these 270 screens are fragile and only last about 6 months before they get damaged and pop.
No corner softening??
Frank
starts at the 5 minute mark.
great video, but with the extra 8 min it takes I could have been printing about 100 shirts per screen...You did a kick ass job with bolt mesh, but the labor difference vs. Shur-loc is a no brainer...and we have never popped a screen due to not softening corners enough...
Sam
That's why this video is entitled BOLT MESH.. panels are next week when I go back and do my frames.
I've broken two glasses from the sure-loc strips popping out of the frame. Not to mention the sloppy corners. I will stick to the bolt mesh. Much better screens in my opinion but thats just my 2.
Great vid John. I never thought of taping the corners like that. Now go clean that smudge off the lens.
I've been a bolt guy for 20 yrs now. I find it's easier to control variables like roller indexing and corner softening. I can also pick up an extra inch of print area as the panel corners are to soft for me. The corners were taped to help prevent tape-mesh tear. He uses some cheap packing tape with crazy adhesive that will hold and rip mesh right out of the high mesh counts when the screen crew untapes screens.
Had no idea the smudge was there till I got home and reviewed 2 hours of video.. it's a GoPro and I don't have the LCD bakpak.
Thanks for the support guys!
Later this week I'm going back to the shop to stretch my frames. I have 12 panels coming in and will stretch them the same way you saw here and post video of that as well.
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I just started trying out the shurloc's. I like em. Not as controllable as bolt mesh but I still think they have their place. I might order a few more panels to see if it "sticks" with me.
I don't have a roller table but I can get the first tension on a M3 frame in about 6-8 minutes, or less if I'm drinking enough coffee. Subsequent tensionings take just a minute or so each.
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I've got a questions, though. Does the white tape stretch when you re-tension?
The small pieces I put on the corners are more for protection. They will stretch a little but they will have to be replaced after a few tensions. This won't be the case with the frames I made here, as they never make it back to re-tension. Sadly they're high end static frames. I was with him 5 yrs ago before moving back east when I helped him switch from static to Rollers and the biggest thing we talked about was screen maintenance, how to take care of the screens, how to keep up on your tension and all that fun stuff. It never happened and the screens are in horrible shape. So he calls me when his busted stack hits 40 screens. I show up and spend a couple days re-stretching screens for him and we talk about way to improve things.
The next thing I get to do for him is get the tri-loc system back in order.
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Evo, get a rollermaster if you can. I know they can be spendy but i see used ones pop up from time to time and they are so worth it!
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Alright, everyone was asking for it so I snagged David, a fabric panel and our Accelerator 2 demo table and shot a little video for everyone. We took a 110/80 fabric panel to 50N in 2 minutes...
August 26, 2011 11:29 AM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhEBTE445vM#)
PS - Sorry for the yellow color balance, my phone wasn't cooperating very well so I got it set the best I could on this one.
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Wow!
If I still owned any Newmans I'd definately buy one of those contraptions...Faast!
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Damn.
Takes me a bit longer on the table ::)
Nice jig.
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The next thing I get to do for him is get the tri-loc system back in order.
John please come to oregon and get our tri-loc in order! PLEASE!!!
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The next thing I get to do for him is get the tri-loc system back in order.
John please come to oregon and get our tri-loc in order! PLEASE!!!
Cover the airfare and I can be there and have it and the guys who use it sorted in a few days. I've never been to the north west so it's on my travel to-do list.
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There are different approaches to tighten bolts.
-John you do it instantly after stretching.
-On Stretch Devices home page they suggest to wait five minutes before tightening.
-Murakami suggests to stretch in four stages... As I understood, not for S thread only...
-I read somewhere to leave it 30 min on Newman Table before tightening...
Does any of you let it relax and re tension? Or just tighten regardless tension drop.
Boris
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We stage up the S meshes as per Murakami's recommendation.
I used to do a similar thing when using Newman Roller Mesh as well just to 'seat' the mesh in the channel. With roller mesh I just took it straight to the top after seating it. What I mean by 'seating' is similar to inflating a new bike innertube properly if that makes sense. You don't just blast a crap ton of air in the tube all at once, you put a little in and let some out an then go up to where you want to be.
In both cases I let em hang out on the table for at least 10 minutes...about as long as it takes John to mesh up the next one. Two tables are definitely the way to go when using bolt mesh. Unnecessary for panels.
When possible I leave them on there for much longer than 10 minutes and as long as overnight.
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Does any of you let it relax and re tension? Or just tighten regardless tension drop.
Going to bring this thread back to address some issues I didn't last time.
Why do I not relax the mesh.. because you don't have to.
the principal behind the technique of tensioning mesh is to flatten the knuckles of the mesh and make a flat stable printing surface.
I have an article here in my hands (in my 'screen bible book' at work really so I'll grab it tomorrow for author) that I've had for about 10 years now that came out around the time the roller table got really popular. It's goal was to find out if pulling the mesh to it's final tension level on the first tension equally from 4 sides at once had any kind of dramatic improvement on initial tension drop vs the 1-roller at a time manual method. The results are staggering and proved that by suddenly 'whacking' the mesh to it's maximum tension levels it was immediately ready for use. The initial tension drop after first printing was minimal requiring only 3-5 more re-tensions to stabilize the mesh. The manual method requires 3 staged tensions before going into production and requires up to 12 additional re-tens before the mesh stabilizes.
Anyone who has made a 200 or higher roller frame with just a wrench and a flat table knows what I mean. It's a long drawn out multi-day process before that screen makes it into production. You can have 6 hours invested into a frame before you even print it!
They also found you could take the mesh to 125% of it's max tension and not break. It would then 'relax' down to it's max tension level. This was how I made my screens at Custom Logos for 4 years with a roller master. If the max tension for the mesh (dynamesh at the time) was 35n then I'd index the rollers, insert the mesh and whack it to 40n and tighten it up. After the first print run the screen would drop to 32-35 depending on the length of the first print run.
I tested the theory over and over to make sure it worked and it did!
This is the way I've been making screens for the last 10 yrs and how I will keep making them.
MESH PANELS and saved time.
As for that other video with panel mesh I was going to make.. I shot a bunch of footage and after 12 tries. I couldn't get past 7 minutes just for the sole fact that you can't index your rollers with panels. You have to take the time and bring them up to the tension point you desire or you'll break em. The only way I can see to help that is to make spacers that fit on the air cylinder rod and stop the roll there. then you can insert and whack
So there.. panels don't save you tons of time as the time saved by putting the panels in, is absorbed by not being able to take it to tension instantly. I only saved 3 minutes and I know what the heck I'm doing. After this time test, panels are a complete waste of time and money to ME so I'll never use them again except for very low mesh so I don't have to lose a frame to mesh that I use maybe once a year.
I challenge anyone to make a video like mine with panels and get under the 7 minute mark from absolute start to finish.
You still have to pull out old mesh, clean the frame, index the rollers, insert new mesh, tension and apply protection tape.
Just putting a 110 panel in a ready to go frame and taking it to 50 isn't start to finish.
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oops.. replied when mean to edit.
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I disagree regarding the "0-60" method with mesh tensioning. I know someone did a big study on it but the only mesh I've used that can do this is roller mesh and it experienced a lot of tension drop after using the straight to the moon method v. staging. We basically use Murakami's recommended method although I do take the initial tension a touch higher than max like you do. I think repeatedly allowing the mesh to relax keeps the knuckles from getting all bound up and releasing that tension later on. I do three relaxes and like to leave the mesh at max until it drops tension a few times. I do other tasks while this is happening and sometimes leave the screen on all night. I've read a recommendation to put a smooth, heavy plate the size of the image area on the screen, sounds like a good idea as well.
I have to agree on the panels, I went through a whole box earlier this year and will be ordering yardage today to re-up. However, fabric loading and corner softening is everything and those panels, even with what I thought was a poor loading and softening job, can be popped in by anyone that knows how to tension a screen and thats very nice.
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I love using the panels and I haven't done any time comparisons between using bolt versus panels but we are going to be moving from the panels to bolt mesh due to our new issues with mesh busting. I need to get cheaper and we all know bolt mesh is way cheaper than the panels. I am certain that I can get a screen up to tension with a panel twice as fast as bolt but because I'm not experienced with bolt mesh at all. Once I get a few dozen under my belt I will be very efficient with it therefore making it a much better option for us versus the panels.
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I love using the panels and I haven't done any time comparisons between using bolt versus panels but we are going to be moving from the panels to bolt mesh due to our new issues with mesh busting. I need to get cheaper and we all know bolt mesh is way cheaper than the panels. I am certain that I can get a screen up to tension with a panel twice as fast as bolt but because I'm not experienced with bolt mesh at all. Once I get a few dozen under my belt I will be very efficient with it therefore making it a much better option for us versus the panels.
I agree panels are nice. We recently got some of the econo line panels. However, the panels are still to expensive compared to bolt mesh. The video showing installing bolt mesh in 10 minutes. He is going at a relaxed pace. The other video of 2 minutes looks like someone going like crazy to set a record on mesh installation. That was with a brand new frame with the rollers indexed in the right place. Now add to that the taping and a normal used frame and the time may be a couple of minutes saved. So I agree panels are not worth it.
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A picture is worth a thousand words..
I have just now started to re-tension the screen inventory at my buddy's shop. I made this frame a little over 5 weeks ago. It's a 200n rapid tensioned with roller indexing to 40n. It's been through 4 print cycles and this is where the tension sits today with not a single re-ten.
(http://www.ridebehindvideos.com/TSB/200_tension.jpg)
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A picture is worth a thousand words..
I have just now started to re-tension the screen inventory at my buddy's shop. I made this frame a little over 5 weeks ago. It's a 200n rapid tensioned with roller indexing to 40n. It's been through 4 print cycles and this is where the tension sits today with not a single re-ten.
([url]http://www.ridebehindvideos.com/TSB/200_tension.jpg[/url])
What kind of mesh is it?
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I believe the "n" after the 200 denotes roller mesh.
?: Do you get the same effect taking the roller mesh up higher? Like if you stretched to 55n would it relax to 50 or way down to 36 again?
I ask because I personally found the roller mesh to lose way more tension by % at the higher tensions.
This is pretty darn good for 4 cycles! I watched your video and was thinking "WTF is the matter with this guy only leaving it on the table for that long"? But it looks like the mission's accomplished, if mid-thirties was in fact the goal.
I've found roller mesh to be the only stuff that you can crank way the eff up straightaway without major damage going on. Then again, there could be unseen damage on a microscopic level to the threads but I'm sure Mr. Newman looked into that already regarding his mesh.
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What kind of mesh is it?
Nittoku Smartmesh-P 200/48 with a target tension of 35. This screen just so happened to hit it perfect and I remembered this thread so had to snap a pic. The rest of the bunch were off target by 3-8n's.
The 'n' denotes typo ;D
After taken to 55 you will get drop but not down to 36. The higher counts do elongate more on initial tension as the thread is thinner and require offset indexing to help take up slack on the warp threads.
I'm pretty impressed with this mesh so far. It's supposed to have a memory and not lose large amounts of tension in the first few runs. It's looks to be working. With many of the screens I've made in the last few months now stabilizing, I'm noticing minute tension drops across all thread counts which for a busy screen maker, it's heavenly to have more time doing other things.
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@zoocity - you DEFINITELY do not want to take a Murakami S thread to 55N. The S threads will not take that much tension. Even the 40N that j took them too is outside the recommended tension range of the 200/48. The 200/48 mesh is recommended to go to a max of 37N - which should relax down to 32-34N (usually 10-15% drop) - and should remain stable at that tension as long as your off contact is minimal and your squeegee pressure is a bit lighter. You should find yourself lightening up on the pressure as the larger openings allows more ink through with less effort.
The entire line of S threads offers some amazing performance, but watch the tension levels as they are much more vulnerable. Now for the truly adventurous souls, make sure to check out the LX mesh... The knuckle-less design on that stuff is just WILD!
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@zoocity - you DEFINITELY do not want to take a Murakami S thread to 55N. The S threads will not take that much tension. Even the 40N that j took them too is outside the recommended tension range of the 200/48. The 200/48 mesh is recommended to go to a max of 37N - which should relax down to 32-34N (usually 10-15% drop) - and should remain stable at that tension as long as your off contact is minimal and your squeegee pressure is a bit lighter. You should find yourself lightening up on the pressure as the larger openings allows more ink through with less effort.
The entire line of S threads offers some amazing performance, but watch the tension levels as they are much more vulnerable. Now for the truly adventurous souls, make sure to check out the LX mesh... The knuckle-less design on that stuff is just WILD!
Yessir, you are correct. We are not taking our S and LX over Murakami's recommendation. I was referring to our prior use of Newman Roller Mesh which does indeed go to those tensions with ease.
I'm surprised that John gets those sort of results with such a brief tensioning time. We have not experienced this. If we tensioned a screen for just a moment like that it would relax down significantly before it even made it on-press.
I will give it a try next time I tension though I do firmly believe in staging the mesh up and relaxing (this can be done quickly) in order to "seat" hand-loaded bolt mesh in the channel and prevent blowouts down the road. Kinda like installing an innertube on a bike.
We stage tension the S and LX mesh and it's now all we use. I do go just a touch over recommended max to account for the mesh relaxing but only 2-4 newtons at most. Much of our stock is currently Shur-loc panels you all custom built for our 25x30 M3 frames.
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Looking to start using my rollers finally.
Zoo... when you say like a bike tube, do you mean that with mesh you take them up and then back off and lock them down or do you just mean letting them relax while being locked down and re-tensioning. (like most videos show.)
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Looking to start using my rollers finally.
Zoo... when you say like a bike tube, do you mean that with mesh you take them up and then back off and lock them down or do you just mean letting them relax while being locked down and re-tensioning. (like most videos show.)
That's regarding loading your own mesh with lock strips. You want to "seat" it in the channel properly before going up to tension. If the mesh was crinkled in there it would severely weaken the screen if not just pop it on the table. This also give you a preview of how accurate your corner softening was if using a new mesh/tension. You can always adjust the corners after taking the tension off and re-stretch. What I meant by the {not too accurate} analogy is, if you loaded a new innertube in you bike tire and just blasted it full to 55psi in a matter of seconds you would probably get a pinch flat unless the tube was in there perfect. You put some air in, check that all's well, let some out and then go on filling it all the way.
Otherwise I build my screens just like in John's video or anyone elses. What I don't do is crank them all the way up and pull them off the table after a minute. I go up, down, up higher, down and then all the way up and hold for as long as possible. Sometimes I skip the middle pulse. With a table you can be loading your next screen while the previous one hangs out on the roller master, there's just no reason to yank them off the roller master after just a few moments of tensioning, the extra time on there can only help.
On M3 frames, the tension will jump again when you tighten the bolts by around 2-6 n/cm at the lower/middling tensions and more at higher tensions. I use a roller master and always have so I can't offer much help on doing it manually with the wrench, we don't even have one in the shop. If you're going at it sans-roller master then yeah, I would assume your going to tension, tighten bolts to hold, tension, loosen bolts, tension, repeat, wait, etc. Stretch Devices makes an excellent manual for this.